DG's Thoughts Post-UMass

#1

DiderotsGhost

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#1
I originally did a write-up and trashed it because it was so bleak and pessimistic. Not my usual style, but tough to deny that things don't look good right now. Here's my second attempt.


The UMass Game

UMass was a bad team. There have been numerous times when VN has underestimated teams outside the Power 5 conferences (or even in the P5 like GT). This is not one of those times. Last season, many on VN underestimated a good App State team. UMass, on the other hand, is one of the worst teams in FBS. It was rated #164 in the Sagarin ratings. As a reminder, there are only 128 teams in I-A (FBS), which means that UMass was rated below several I-AA teams. It was the 5th worst team in FBS; not that much better than Indiana State. All the crap about "playing close games" (are 10 point losses really "close games"?) was ridiculous --- they're "playing close games" against other bad teams.

Bob Shoop's Defense is Good, not Great. I still don't for the life of me understand why the defense is getting most of the flak right now. Defense essentially gave up about 13 points last week against Florida (once you account for turnovers and bad field position). Once again, defense mostly did its job, giving up 13 to a UMass team that has averaged about 21 points. Not an elite performance by any means, but 7 sacks, and they got the stops when they needed them. You can complain that we're still giving up too many yards per play and too many big plays, but overall, it's been a "bend, don't break" defense that has been good enough to win. I'd give Shoop a "B" on the season thus far.

Larry Scott is terrible. This is the 2nd game in a row where Larry Scott deserved an "F" grade. UMass's opponents were averaging about 30 points per game and their strength of schedule was incredibly weak. We should've put up 40+ on these guys with 2nd stringers. 17 points is just pathetic. If we can't put up more than 17 against Georgia, we're doomed.

Quinten Dormady looked good at times. Still inconsistent, but he hit a rhythm right about the time that Butch Jones decided it was time for a QB change. Butch's game management is still beyond bizarre. I thought there was a good case for JG against Florida when QD was struggling. It was difficult to see a reason to yank QD in a close game when he was suddenly starting to hit a groove.

I was wrong. Last week, I said I thought the coaches should be considering JG for the "higher upside", but I have to admit, he just doesn't look like he's ready.

Brandon Johnson. At least he emerged this game. Though, he was about the only receiver that did much.

John Kelly is Elite. Even with UMass basically focusing their entire defense on stopping JK, he still racked up 100+ yards.

One-Man Offense Doesn't Work. JK may be elite, but it's becoming obvious that defenses are just going to focus all their efforts on stopping him and ignoring everything else at this point.


Big Picture

Butch isn't done yet. It looks bad after the past two weeks, but there's still a lot of season left to go. But he's definitely on the "hot seat" at this point, regardless of what anyone in the AD says.

Larry Scott is the key. Hate to say it, but Butch's survival likely depends on Larry Scott figuring out the offense REAL quick.

Can Scott improve? You can forgive Scott a bit, as he's a 1st year OC, but he's been terrible thus far. The question is has he been terrible due to 'growing pains' or is he always going to be this terrible? Regardless, he's got to get something figured out soon or he's out of a job at the end of the season.

Can Butch improve? This actually might be an even bigger question. Butch does a lot of things incredibly well, but he also does a lot of important things poorly. He's not Dooley, but he may not be Dabo Swinney either. Right now, he's looking a bit like Ron Zook, unfortunately.

The case for Butch. From Year 3 onward, Butch is 21-9. He has not made us elite, but he's dug us out of the mess Dooley left and made us competitive again. He's an excellent recruiter and knows how to run an organization. His players have generally played hard for him (UMass game aside). He has a lot in common with Dabo Swinney, who also struggled during his first 4 seasons before "figuring it out." Feels like he could be a Dabo Swinney / Phil Fulmer type of coach that could win big if he'd just surround himself with the right people.

The case against Butch. 5 years in and we still see terrible game management. Butch doesn't seem to get "football strategy" very well. From Year 3 onward, he's 9-8 in SEC play, which seems disappointing given the talent he's had. His hiring of Scott looks very questionable now; whereas Dabo Swinney went out and found Chad Morris and Brent Venables around the same timeframe for his tenure at Clemson. Butch may simply be another Ron Zook; a guy who can be an elite recruiter, but who struggles on the field against better coaching.

Inability to Adapt. This is starting to become my biggest issue with our coaching staff. They don't seem to adapt well. They seem wedded to "the scheme" rather than building a scheme that suits the players we have on the roster.

2017 can't be like 2013. In 2013 and 2014, it made sense why our offense struggled given a lack of skill players and lack of depth at various positions. In 2017, we look very good from a talent perspective, but we're still playing like that 2013 team.

I'll reserve judgement for now.
Admittedly, I'm pretty pessimistic about Butch's survival at this point, but I'm still holding off on judgement till we see how this team does against Georgia, South Carolina, and Bama at the very least. It's a long season and you never know.

Go Vols! Doesn't matter how I feel about the coaching, I'm still rooting for the Vols 100% against this week!

GBO!
 
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#2
#2
Tennessee isn't a place for Scott to be learning on the job. Butch will likely be canned for that decision and he probably should be.
 
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#4
#4
Go Vols! Doesn't matter how I feel about the coaching, I'm still rooting for the Vols 100% against this week!

GBO!
[/QUOTE]

Good synopsis. I can definitely get on board with rooting for the Vols
 
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#5
#5
Tennessee isn't a place for Scott to be learning on the job. Butch will likely be canned for that decision and he probably should be.

Fulmer was fired for basically making a bad hire at OC, and he was a proven offensive mind.
 
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#6
#6
DG, I would rather read your thoughts than 1,000 paid "journalists". Well thought out and quite balanced.

I don't think Butch has lost the team at all yet. I see zero indication of that. He has lost a lot of fans though. He can bring most of them back by winning the East IMO. For me, I jumped to the unbelieving side about the time Dormady released that pass on 1st and goal at the 1/2 YL v UF. QD checkdown or not, that was probably the worst decision I've seen in my history as a Vol fan. I officially doubt he's the guy b/c of these constant on-field blunders. Everything else (minus the irrelavant Butchisms) I'm a pretty big fan.
 
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#7
#7
Really good read and I totally agree with it. I hope CBJ turns it around and this team finds a good reason to pull together. Still plenty of football left.
 
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#8
#8
I originally did a write-up and trashed it because it was so bleak and pessimistic. Not my usual style, but tough to deny that things don't look good right now. Here's my second attempt.


The UMass Game

UMass was a bad team. There have been numerous times when VN has underestimated teams outside the Power 5 conferences (or even in the P5 like GT). This is not one of those times. Last season, many on VN underestimated a good App State team. UMass, on the other hand, is one of the worst teams in FBS. It was rated #164 in the Sagarin ratings. As a reminder, there are only 128 teams in I-A (FBS), which means that UMass was rated below several I-AA teams. It was the 5th worst team in FBS; not that much better than Indiana State. All the crap about "playing close games" (are 10 point losses really "close games"?) was ridiculous --- they're "playing close games" against other bad teams.

Bob Shoop's Defense is Good, not Great. I still don't for the life of me understand why the defense is getting most of the flak right now. Defense essentially gave up about 13 points last week against Florida (once you account for turnovers and bad field position). Once again, defense mostly did its job, giving up 13 to a UMass team that has averaged about 21 points. Not an elite performance by any means, but 7 sacks, and they got the stops when they needed them. You can complain that we're still giving up too many yards per play and too many big plays, but overall, it's been a "bend, don't break" defense that has been good enough to win. I'd give Shoop a "B" on the season thus far.

Larry Scott is terrible. This is the 2nd game in a row where Larry Scott deserved an "F" grade. UMass's opponents were averaging about 30 points per game and their strength of schedule was incredibly weak. We should've put up 40+ on these guys with 2nd stringers. 17 points is just pathetic. If we can't put up more than 17 against Georgia, we're doomed.

Quinten Dormady looked good at times. Still inconsistent, but he hit a rhythm right about the time that Butch Jones decided it was time for a QB change. Butch's game management is still beyond bizarre. I thought there was a good case for JG against Florida when QD was struggling. It was difficult to see a reason to yank QD in a close game when he was suddenly starting to hit a groove.

I was wrong. Last week, I said I thought the coaches should be considering JG for the "higher upside", but I have to admit, he just doesn't look like he's ready.

Brandon Johnson. At least he emerged this game. Though, he was about the only receiver that did much.

John Kelly is Elite. Even with UMass basically focusing their entire defense on stopping JK, he still racked up 100+ yards.

One-Man Offense Doesn't Work. JK may be elite, but it's becoming obvious that defenses are just going to focus all their efforts on stopping him and ignoring everything else at this point.


Big Picture

Butch isn't done yet. It looks bad after the past two weeks, but there's still a lot of season left to go. But he's definitely on the "hot seat" at this point, regardless of what anyone in the AD says.

Larry Scott is the key. Hate to say it, but Butch's survival likely depends on Larry Scott figuring out the offense REAL quick.

Can Scott improve? You can forgive Scott a bit, as he's a 1st year OC, but he's been terrible thus far. The question is has he been terrible due to 'growing pains' or is he always going to be this terrible? Regardless, he's got to get something figured out soon or he's out of a job at the end of the season.

Can Butch improve? This actually might be an even bigger question. Butch does a lot of things incredibly well, but he also does a lot of important things poorly. He's not Dooley, but he may not be Dabo Swinney either. Right now, he's looking a bit like Ron Zook, unfortunately.

The case for Butch. From Year 3 onward, Butch is 21-9. He has not made us elite, but he's dug us out of the mess Dooley left and made us competitive again. He's an excellent recruiter and knows how to run an organization. His players have generally played hard for him (UMass game aside). He has a lot in common with Dabo Swinney, who also struggled during his first 4 seasons before "figuring it out." Feels like he could be a Dabo Swinney / Phil Fulmer type of coach that could win big if he'd just surround himself with the right people.

The case against Butch. 5 years in and we still see terrible game management. Butch doesn't seem to get "football strategy" very well. From Year 3 onward, he's 9-8 in SEC play, which seems disappointing given the talent he's had. His hiring of Scott looks very questionable now; whereas Dabo Swinney went out and found Chad Morris and Brent Venables around the same timeframe for his tenure at Clemson. Butch may simply be another Ron Zook; a guy who can be an elite recruiter, but who struggles on the field against better coaching.

Inability to Adapt. This is starting to become my biggest issue with our coaching staff. They don't seem to adapt well. They seem wedded to "the scheme" rather than building a scheme that suits the players we have on the roster.

2017 can't be like 2013. In 2013 and 2014, it made sense why our offense struggled given a lack of skill players and lack of depth at various positions. In 2017, we look very good from a talent perspective, but we're still playing like that 2013 team.

I'll reserve judgement for now.
Admittedly, I'm pretty pessimistic about Butch's survival at this point, but I'm still holding off on judgement till we see how this team does against Georgia, South Carolina, and Bama at the very least. It's a long season and you never know.

Go Vols! Doesn't matter how I feel about the coaching, I'm still rooting for the Vols 100% against this week!

GBO!

Thank you, this is a great post. It is refreshing to see a post that gives reasons and is well thought out.

I think this is a must read for everyone on this board.

GBO
 
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#9
#9
I really hate it for Butch. I think he's honestly given it 100%.

But he has some serious issues and I honestly think he is in over his head at this point.

It's a tough job. Not many men can do it.

But it's definitely time for him to move along, back to a level he is more comfortable with. I don't think he's done anything to be ashamed of at Tennessee. He has did what he could to try to win, he couldn't do it, he didn't tarnish the program or get us into any kind of NCAA problems. I think he's recruited genuinely decent players with good character, but he doesn't know what to do with them.
 
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#11
#11
Nice write up as usual DG. This offense isn't all LS fault. It has no option but to fail having a pocket passer in a zone read offense.

The defenses are stacking 8+ in the box. The DE's are crashing in at the RB with no threat of QD running. This allows any team to play with us including a UMass.

I know it will never happen but if we could drop the zone read and go more traditional or pro style QD and JK would flourish and we would be doing what GA is doing.

Something that is more of a possibility is the pistol and did see a few plays of the pistol Saturday. If they have a ton of pistol plays they haven't shown yet, Saturday could be fun. If not, I think were in alot of trouble.
 
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#12
#12
Many good points. Very much agree about JG. He just hasn’t looked comfortable yet, although dropped passes don’t help either.
 
#13
#13
We should fire Butch Jones right now to salvage the season.

I fear he has lost the team.

I'm not one for fire Butch now....(and hey....i'm a fire Butch now guy) and salvage the season. If an interim comes in and loses to GA, then maybe to SC and then to Bama.....things could go REAL bad; however if and interim comes in right after that......and things do improve (better odds of winning those games anyway).....things could look much better for an incoming coach.
 
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#14
#14
DG you are great. I too think Scott has been terrible. Also, the OL is just as bad under wells. Time to admit that except for Trey and Jashon, we are very low on talent at that position. Is it just me or does it seem that Butch is too concerned with how comfortable the players are. I can't stand the laid back atmosphere at practice and the way Butch lets his players let there Tshirt hang out. It is sloppy, and they play sloppy a lot. I know that sounds picky, but I played ball and our coach said you play like you practice.
 
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#16
#16
Awesome write up DG. I would say your analysis on why the defense is getting all the flak is spot on. I was at the GT game and the defense played well the first few series. It wasn't until the offense continually had 3 and outs they started to gas. Our defense is pencil thin at most positions due to injuries so the offense needs to control the time of possession to limit their minutes on the field. Also I would add that our offensive line is still a point of weakness on the field. Their pass blocking is serviceable but outside of Trey Smith they can't run block when it calls to move the man in front of you. Most of the yards JK has amassed has been due to him being a beast and breaking tackles.

One area I would disagree with you is I think Butch will be here next year. Not because I think he is a great coach but because of the buyout $$ in his contract.
 
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#17
#17
The offense is Butch's baby. He cannot bring in a high quality OC because he gives them zero control of the offense.
 
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#18
#18
One area I would disagree with you is I think Butch will be here next year. Not because I think he is a great coach but because of the buyout $$ in his contract.

If Butch wins less than 7 and or loses to Vandy again I think there is a very strong possibility.
 
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#19
#19
Larry Scott might be a worse coordinator hire than Sunseri, as hard as that is to believe

I wouldn't go that far. Sunseri was just plain stupid. That's why no one had hired him as DC before. I think Larry Scott is a smart coach who is overthinking his decisions.

1st and Goal at the 1/2 yard line. He knows the defense is loading up against the run, so he goes with the pass. But still, if you can't get 1/2 yard with this O-line and a touchdown-scoring machine (John Kelly), do you really deserve to win? I think Scott out-thought himself and tried to do what the defense didn't expect, but there are situations where the defense knows exactly what you're going to do and you do it anyway and have to execute. Scott seems to be trying to 'catch the defense by surprise' more than 'playing to our own strengths.'

Scott has had moments of brilliance particularly in the 2nd half against GT and the 4th Quarter vs Florida --- it's just that he's had more moments where he's tried to have the offense do things it shouldn't be doing. That at least leaves me some hope that he can get it figured out, but I'm kinda skeptical that the "light bulb" will come on before the end of the season.
 
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#20
#20
I originally did a write-up and trashed it because it was so bleak and pessimistic. Not my usual style, but tough to deny that things don't look good right now. Here's my second attempt.


The UMass Game

UMass was a bad team. There have been numerous times when VN has underestimated teams outside the Power 5 conferences (or even in the P5 like GT). This is not one of those times. Last season, many on VN underestimated a good App State team. UMass, on the other hand, is one of the worst teams in FBS. It was rated #164 in the Sagarin ratings. As a reminder, there are only 128 teams in I-A (FBS), which means that UMass was rated below several I-AA teams. It was the 5th worst team in FBS; not that much better than Indiana State. All the crap about "playing close games" (are 10 point losses really "close games"?) was ridiculous --- they're "playing close games" against other bad teams.

Bob Shoop's Defense is Good, not Great. I still don't for the life of me understand why the defense is getting most of the flak right now. Defense essentially gave up about 13 points last week against Florida (once you account for turnovers and bad field position). Once again, defense mostly did its job, giving up 13 to a UMass team that has averaged about 21 points. Not an elite performance by any means, but 7 sacks, and they got the stops when they needed them. You can complain that we're still giving up too many yards per play and too many big plays, but overall, it's been a "bend, don't break" defense that has been good enough to win. I'd give Shoop a "B" on the season thus far.

Larry Scott is terrible. This is the 2nd game in a row where Larry Scott deserved an "F" grade. UMass's opponents were averaging about 30 points per game and their strength of schedule was incredibly weak. We should've put up 40+ on these guys with 2nd stringers. 17 points is just pathetic. If we can't put up more than 17 against Georgia, we're doomed.

Quinten Dormady looked good at times. Still inconsistent, but he hit a rhythm right about the time that Butch Jones decided it was time for a QB change. Butch's game management is still beyond bizarre. I thought there was a good case for JG against Florida when QD was struggling. It was difficult to see a reason to yank QD in a close game when he was suddenly starting to hit a groove.

I was wrong. Last week, I said I thought the coaches should be considering JG for the "higher upside", but I have to admit, he just doesn't look like he's ready.

Brandon Johnson. At least he emerged this game. Though, he was about the only receiver that did much.

John Kelly is Elite. Even with UMass basically focusing their entire defense on stopping JK, he still racked up 100+ yards.

One-Man Offense Doesn't Work. JK may be elite, but it's becoming obvious that defenses are just going to focus all their efforts on stopping him and ignoring everything else at this point.


Big Picture

Butch isn't done yet. It looks bad after the past two weeks, but there's still a lot of season left to go. But he's definitely on the "hot seat" at this point, regardless of what anyone in the AD says.

Larry Scott is the key. Hate to say it, but Butch's survival likely depends on Larry Scott figuring out the offense REAL quick.

Can Scott improve? You can forgive Scott a bit, as he's a 1st year OC, but he's been terrible thus far. The question is has he been terrible due to 'growing pains' or is he always going to be this terrible? Regardless, he's got to get something figured out soon or he's out of a job at the end of the season.

Can Butch improve? This actually might be an even bigger question. Butch does a lot of things incredibly well, but he also does a lot of important things poorly. He's not Dooley, but he may not be Dabo Swinney either. Right now, he's looking a bit like Ron Zook, unfortunately.

The case for Butch. From Year 3 onward, Butch is 21-9. He has not made us elite, but he's dug us out of the mess Dooley left and made us competitive again. He's an excellent recruiter and knows how to run an organization. His players have generally played hard for him (UMass game aside). He has a lot in common with Dabo Swinney, who also struggled during his first 4 seasons before "figuring it out." Feels like he could be a Dabo Swinney / Phil Fulmer type of coach that could win big if he'd just surround himself with the right people.

The case against Butch. 5 years in and we still see terrible game management. Butch doesn't seem to get "football strategy" very well. From Year 3 onward, he's 9-8 in SEC play, which seems disappointing given the talent he's had. His hiring of Scott looks very questionable now; whereas Dabo Swinney went out and found Chad Morris and Brent Venables around the same timeframe for his tenure at Clemson. Butch may simply be another Ron Zook; a guy who can be an elite recruiter, but who struggles on the field against better coaching.

Inability to Adapt. This is starting to become my biggest issue with our coaching staff. They don't seem to adapt well. They seem wedded to "the scheme" rather than building a scheme that suits the players we have on the roster.

2017 can't be like 2013. In 2013 and 2014, it made sense why our offense struggled given a lack of skill players and lack of depth at various positions. In 2017, we look very good from a talent perspective, but we're still playing like that 2013 team.

I'll reserve judgement for now.
Admittedly, I'm pretty pessimistic about Butch's survival at this point, but I'm still holding off on judgement till we see how this team does against Georgia, South Carolina, and Bama at the very least. It's a long season and you never know.

Go Vols! Doesn't matter how I feel about the coaching, I'm still rooting for the Vols 100% against this week!

GBO!

good write up DG. agree with most all of this. as for CLS...i'm not necessarily ready to say he's terrible, though he's closer to that than the other way around. that said, i'll just say that i think he and butch suffer from what seems to be the same issue of not being able to get in the flow of a game, and understanding how to take advantage of what is working, and compensating for what's not....adjustments.

the offense has no real identity right now, and aside from just a few possessions this season, they've rarely found a rhythm....they need to commit to something and do everything around supporting that core philosophy. and to me, that's John Kelly. doesn't mean he should run it 40 times a game. but it does mean that at this point, whatever we do, should be with the intent of finding ways to take advantage of his skill set as the game goes on. pass to set up run, screens, draws, whatever....it starts with how do we make him most effective?

i agree also with you on the scheme/system point. personnel wise, to me, it is not a zone read/spread option roster. we have the pieces to run a more pro style system right now. square peg, round hole.

also agree with your take on CBJ, good and bad. season isn't over yet, and neither is butch. but it does feel like the clock is at least ticking for sure.
 
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#21
#21
We should fire Butch Jones right now to salvage the season.

I fear he has lost the team.

You say salvage the season, but I just don't see one of the sub coaches on the staff doing any better as an interim. I think we can beat GA if the defense continues to play well and the Oline gets back to where it was in the second half against FL, plus Dormady needs to play the whole game like he has played late in the Ga Tech and FL games. Oh, and definitely better play calling from the coaches would be nice.
After that, we are good enough to win the rest except Bama, IF they play up to their ability. GBO
 
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#22
#22
I agree with most of what you are saying, but while they are not a good team, UMASS is not as bad as many people are saying. I though the 28 point line was too high coming in, I expected something closer to 17. UMASS is a team that hasn't figured out how to win yet, but they just aren't as bad as their record, plus the VOLS were obviously down after the FL game.
 
#23
#23
I would like to add one thing.

I agree, and think Larry Scott is terrible!

If I were Butch, I would give Mike Canales a shot at calling the plays. Pretty good resume on offense. Can't be worse than Scott................
 

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