How bad/good is our coaching, really?

#1

81Orange

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#1
The only true valuation of a coach is where his teams finish year in and year out. A top ten coach will have his team finish in the top ten. I am not looking for a mathematical calculation, just a general expectation. For example, Nick Saban is a top 5 coach. I would not argue if someone said he is a top two coach or number 1.

I am not looking to establish an exact ranking of coaches, and I don't need to consider outlying years good or bad. You don't need to even be specific about which pole or computers program are used.

Looking at 2015-2016 UT finished around 22 in the CFP. So Butch is in the top 25. This says nothing about potential etc. I choose to ignore Butch's first two years because of the state of the program he took over. It is interesting that I am evaluating on two years when it seems he has been here forever. I could throw out last year for injuries but it would not change the rank any.

The great thing about this method is I can ignore all the little stuff everyone likes to at pick on so much, and go straight to an evaluation.

Has Butch reached his ceiling? Butch and his staff all have impact on where the team finishes. Ultimately Butch gets credit for the record, but a better staff can bring a better record. I don't think the former staff was as good as the current staff, and I think there is still room for improvement. I think the current staff could regularly finish in the top 20. With better staff Butch could easily move into the 10-15 range.

Don't tell me Butch should have have hired a better staff. He hired what he could afford, just like most other coaches not named Saban.

Is a top 10-15 coach good enough? It is certainly good enough to fill seats and keep the cash flowing. This meets the administration requirements. It is not likely good enough to satisfy fans looking for a championship every 4-5 years. For this we need a Saban, but is the championship worth the extra expense in salary?
 
#3
#3
https://youtu.be/XmlTWz4dyxg

You want to see a well coached football team? Go watch that highlight video. Watch how well their O line executes. Watch Bryant play QB, keep in mind he was a 3 star as you watch him play. Watch how aggressive their Dline is, how their linebackers are never all over the place, guessing at plays and don't miss every tackle like Jumper...

Then remember, in 2016, their HC and Butch...made the same amount of money....
And in 2016, Venables made just a little bit more than Bob Shoop did...

Funny ole world, isn't it?
 
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#5
#5
Terrible Jones keep griping about players not doing their jobs and he is the one that is responsible for them doing their job. In the real world you replace anyone that is not doing their job yet he just keeps letting certain players play.
 
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#6
#6
BAD!

There is a new and exciting excuse every week ... injuries, some esoteric chart, poor player execution, officiating, and now it's the fan's fault. Get that arrogant, stubborn SOB off the field!
 
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#8
#8
After we lose or get spanked by Georgia he will blame the towel boy or equipment manager for handing out the wrong jockstraps.
 
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#9
#9
Two things OP. First, Nick Saban is much more than a top 5 coach. He is the greatest college football coach of all time.

Secondly, our coaching staff outside of Gillespie pretty much sucks. Ask yourself this when evaluating our coaches, would any of them be hired by any other SEC team? I say no way. Gillespie is the lone bright spot for us. And I think he wont be here much longer because he will be getting a HC job.
 
#10
#10
I don't think the former staff was as good as the current staff, and I think there is still room for improvement.

I have to strongly disagree with you on this statement. We definitely have a downgrade at the OC which is a key position. Particularly when breaking in a new QB.
 
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#11
#11
https://youtu.be/XmlTWz4dyxg

You want to see a well coached football team? Go watch that highlight video. Watch how well their O line executes. Watch Bryant play QB, keep in mind he was a 3 star as you watch him play. Watch how aggressive their Dline is, how their linebackers are never all over the place, guessing at plays and don't miss every tackle like Jumper...

Then remember, in 2016, their HC and Butch...made the same amount of money....
And in 2016, Venables made just a little bit more than Bob Shoop did...

Funny ole world, isn't it?

Are you serious about Jumper missing every tackle? You might want to take a look at the stars before making statements like that.
 
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#12
#12
Well when you have such a small sample size, yes they can look good. But sadly what made him a top 25coach was sheer talent and luck. It was the players overcoming the bad coaching that made him look good.

Sadly when you can barely crack the top 25 with a top 10 talented roster it just shows how truly bad most of this staff is. Honestly I think most of the staff is better, but they are handcuffed by Lyles micromanaging.

I honestly believe if you got rid of Lyle and let the rest do their thing we might see a lot of improvement.
 
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#14
#14
Its bad.

Its actually average, because thats wherenwe finish each year. However, when the team has the potential to be very good and the coaching tends to make it average, the coaching is bad.
 
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#15
#15
The only true valuation of a coach is where his teams finish year in and year out. A top ten coach will have his team finish in the top ten. I am not looking for a mathematical calculation, just a general expectation. For example, Nick Saban is a top 5 coach. I would not argue if someone said he is a top two coach or number 1.

I am not looking to establish an exact ranking of coaches, and I don't need to consider outlying years good or bad. You don't need to even be specific about which pole or computers program are used.

Looking at 2015-2016 UT finished around 22 in the CFP. So Butch is in the top 25. This says nothing about potential etc. I choose to ignore Butch's first two years because of the state of the program he took over. It is interesting that I am evaluating on two years when it seems he has been here forever. I could throw out last year for injuries but it would not change the rank any.

The great thing about this method is I can ignore all the little stuff everyone likes to at pick on so much, and go straight to an evaluation.

Has Butch reached his ceiling? Butch and his staff all have impact on where the team finishes. Ultimately Butch gets credit for the record, but a better staff can bring a better record. I don't think the former staff was as good as the current staff, and I think there is still room for improvement. I think the current staff could regularly finish in the top 20. With better staff Butch could easily move into the 10-15 range.

Don't tell me Butch should have have hired a better staff. He hired what he could afford, just like most other coaches not named Saban.

Is a top 10-15 coach good enough? It is certainly good enough to fill seats and keep the cash flowing. This meets the administration requirements. It is not likely good enough to satisfy fans looking for a championship every 4-5 years. For this we need a Saban, but is the championship worth the extra expense in salary?

The bold is just an incorrect assumption on your part.

James Franklin was a better coach than his team was ranked, and Dooley was an even worse coach than his teams were ranked. You have to consider the program in which a coach coaches.

With that said, I believe Butch is most likely a worse coach than his teams are ranked. He is of overall median coaching talents. He is a better recruiter than most, but a worse game-day coach (due apparently to not handling pressure well and allowing pressure situations to override common sense and rationality).

He also doesn't seem able to develop the talent he gets, whether that's an inability to recognize and gather coaching talent, or a tendency to micro-manage coaching talent.
 
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#16
#16
After we lose or get spanked by Georgia he will blame the towel boy or equipment manager for handing out the wrong jockstraps.

Hopefully our players arent like these hand wringing fans that have given up the season before the games are played. My guess is they have far more mettle than most of the keyboard coaches.
 
#17
#17
The players don't seem interested. When you have guys like Booger McFarland tweeting that the team doesn't look well coached. Well... We all have been waiting for this thing to progress under Jones.. Seems to be stuck in neutral. Lately it's been looking like they hit reverse and regressed. The player's don't have much fire, don't look engaged, just about dropped a game to one of the worst teams in the nation. We have problems.
 
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#18
#18
Are you serious about Jumper missing every tackle? You might want to take a look at the stars before making statements like that.

If jumper made every tackle he had a chance at, he would lead the nation in solo's. Dude gets to the ball carrier, and 50% of the time he arm tackles or misses.
 
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#19
#19
Again my argument is a coach is equal to the results he gets. Part of being the HC is game plan and part is recruiting. Some coaches are better at recruiting some are better at x&o.

If you say Butch does not get enough out of his talent that's fine but your picking a select part of his job and not evaluating his overall performance.

It is true Butch did't build the facilities and his may be better than another coach. But Butch got the job.

Results are results
 
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#20
#20
Again my argument is a coach is equal to the results he gets. Part of being the HC is game plan and part is recruiting. Some coaches are better at recruiting some are better at x&o.

If you say Butch does not get enough out of his talent that's fine but your picking a select part of his job and not evaluating his overall performance.

It is true Butch did't build the facilities and his may be better than another coach. But Butch got the job.

Results are results

In 2012, Brady Hoke's Michigan team was ranked #8 and James Franklin's Vanderbilt team was unranked. So, you are saying that Hoke is/was the 8th most talented coach in the country, and that much more talented than Franklin? I sure am glad to hear that, as we (UT) can now just fire Butch, promote our DL coach, and be top-10 next year.

I'll say it again, you're making assumptions that vastly oversimplify judgments per coaching talent.
 
#23
#23
New staff needs time. Can't teach or change all the past short comings in one short spring and fall time frame. Limits on teaching and prep time (no 2 a days. ect) makes it more than one year to correct all the ills. As an example, I think the defense, as a whole, as shown progress since last year.
 
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#24
#24
The way I look at it is, it's been bad enough to lose SEVERAL winnable games, and good enough to win a FEW in dramatic fashion.
 

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