Mississippi State game reflections

#1
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Benionsopinion

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#1
One thought here is that Holly tried something different by having Mercedes out at free throw line to begin the game,but the ploy to get McGowan away from the basket did not work. The offensive rebounds along with turnovers gave MState many more chances on offense. Lady Vols (matador) defense was exposed throughout the game. Those two things contributed most to the loss. But it surely doesn't help that two upper class team members shot 4 for 24. Freshmen shot 8 for 20. Seems like,watching from afar that Jaime and MeMe have decided that they must become scoring machines,rather than play in the team concept. I'll leave that to Coach Jumper to address,maybe he sees it differently. However,when I see those two continuously going 1 on 2 or 1 on 3,it makes me wonder. Think maybe they are trying too hard to make up for the team's defensive lapses and turnover problem. At 16-3,it's time to regroup and rethink. Rebounding and defense do win games---- see MState and FState from yesterday. Go Lady Vols!
 
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#2
#2
Someone in another thread mentioned shooters over passing and not taking mid range jumpers. I remember back in Pat's day, she had a player named Sidney Spencer. Sidney passed up shots and Pat had her run the stairs and the next game she had a great offensive game.

I was thinking about the turnovers and over passing. After turnovers and over passing, Holly should pull the player and reinforce the issue face to face and then put them back in to prove themselves.

Also, is KK hurt and is the staff seeking a medical redshirt?
 
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#3
#3
If you don't blow a 24 point lead you go 2-2 in a tough final 4 type stretch. Instead you go 1-3 looks like the coach and players can't handle pressure.
 
#4
#4
KK isn't hurt; she just isn't getting playing time.

It's clear from this four game stretch that we are not as good as was thought after the Texas game, or even as we went undefeated. Our weaknesses on defense have bitten us (poor dribble drive defense/help, poor rebounding, poor intensity outside of Meme Jackson.) What's worse, though, is our offense: State made us look out of sorts and undisciplined. We dribble way too much and don't know how to play outside of set plays. We're a poor passing team with an absurd amount of turnovers. We have weak mental strength as evidenced by multiple fourth quarter melt downs.
I am convinced now that Westbrook is playing out of position. She should play off-guard, not point guard, and she should look to score as much as Jaime, who has gone through a long stretch of struggling.
Someone has to run the point, and I would go with Hayes here. She has her limitations, especially defensively, but I think it will pay for us more in the long run.
Jaime started out the season so well, but her slump has really affected this team in my opinion. I think the Freshmen look to her to be a reliable offensive player, and when she fails to deliver, I think it drags the whole team down. Until Nared can produce better, I honestly believe that she should take less shots than Davis and Westbrook. There isn't much to lose at this point. I know Davis has gone through lax stretches, but we need players who can step up and produce consistently, something that I don't know that Nared can do, and Davis definitely has the talent to produce--and If she can gain confidence for us this season--that would pay for us in the long run.
Russell is the most consistent player we have, but she simply cannot dominate a game like other #1 players can. I honestly don't know if that's her problem or the coaches' problem. I have a feeling it's a bit of both.
Regardless, her defensive pressure must improve in order for us to defend the dribble drive better.
Finally, this has been beaten to death here, but I do not think CHW is the right coach for this program. There are many things within games indicative of either a lack of coaching or poor coaching. I don't think she inspires great confidence in her teams. This may be wrong of me, and I understand why CPS made the decision, however, CPS made the wrong decision in gifting the program to an assistant who never left to pursue her own opportunities. TN is still the best job available, I believe, in WCBB, and it should go to someone worthy of helming such a program.
 
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#5
#5
Our starting lineup includes:
#1 Center (2013)
#1 Wing (2014)
#7 Wing (2015)
#3 Wing (2017) (3rd to Dodson and Walker. It's safe to say however that Rennia could be #2 or #1 by the end of her career, depending)
#1 Point/SG (2017)
#3 Point comes off the bench
We have the talent on the floor, but do we have the coaching?
 
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#7
#7
Undercovervol said:
It's clear from this four game stretch that we are not as good as was thought after the Texas game, or even as we went undefeated.
Click to expand...

Completely agree. The pre-conference schedule wasn't that strong to begin with, and Holly still managed to catch some breaks. Stanford is unexpectedly average this season. Texas was without one of their all-conference players....
 
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#8
#8
mike099 said:
Someone in another thread mentioned shooters over passing and not taking mid range jumpers. I remember back in Pat's day, she had a player named Sidney Spencer. Sidney passed up shots and Pat had her run the stairs and the next game she had a great offensive game.

I was thinking about the turnovers and over passing. After turnovers and over passing, Holly should pull the player and reinforce the issue face to face and then put them back in to prove themselves.

Also, is KK hurt and is the staff seeking a medical redshirt?
Click to expand...


That`s what i was saying Holly is to soft no fire Freshmen or no Freshmen Pat would rip them face to face.
 
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#9
#9
No matter what Pro Holly fans might think, she is not the killer type. When players make mistakes she just hits them on the butt as they head to the bench. It is almost as if she is not bothered by individual bad play. That doesn’t happen with other coaches of top 10 programs. Holly may know the X’s and O’s but that does not make she is a complete coach. This team has changed on offense and it just does not have the flow it had previously. Holly just seems challenged to change things when the Lady Vols are pressing or producing bad results. She seems to have few answers when the opponent starts taking us apart. Top coaches know how to change plans to meet challenges from other teams, we just do not seem to have that in our coaching arsenal.

Sometimes the players seem to be playing how they want without any concern for coaching corrections. You would never have seen that from a Pat coached team.
 
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#10
#10
Undercovervol said:
KK isn't hurt; she just isn't getting playing time.

It's clear from this four game stretch that we are not as good as was thought after the Texas game, or even as we went undefeated. Our weaknesses on defense have bitten us (poor dribble drive defense/help, poor rebounding, poor intensity outside of Meme Jackson.) What's worse, though, is our offense: State made us look out of sorts and undisciplined. We dribble way too much and don't know how to play outside of set plays. We're a poor passing team with an absurd amount of turnovers. We have weak mental strength as evidenced by multiple fourth quarter melt downs.
I am convinced now that Westbrook is playing out of position. She should play off-guard, not point guard, and she should look to score as much as Jaime, who has gone through a long stretch of struggling.
Someone has to run the point, and I would go with Hayes here. She has her limitations, especially defensively, but I think it will pay for us more in the long run.
Jaime started out the season so well, but her slump has really affected this team in my opinion. I think the Freshmen look to her to be a reliable offensive player, and when she fails to deliver, I think it drags the whole team down. Until Nared can produce better, I honestly believe that she should take less shots than Davis and Westbrook. There isn't much to lose at this point. I know Davis has gone through lax stretches, but we need players who can step up and produce consistently, something that I don't know that Nared can do, and Davis definitely has the talent to produce--and If she can gain confidence for us this season--that would pay for us in the long run.
Russell is the most consistent player we have, but she simply cannot dominate a game like other #1 players can. I honestly don't know if that's her problem or the coaches' problem. I have a feeling it's a bit of both.
Regardless, her defensive pressure must improve in order for us to defend the dribble drive better.
Finally, this has been beaten to death here, but I do not think CHW is the right coach for this program. There are many things within games indicative of either a lack of coaching or poor coaching. I don't think she inspires great confidence in her teams. This may be wrong of me, and I understand why CPS made the decision, however, CPS made the wrong decision in gifting the program to an assistant who never left to pursue her own opportunities. TN is still the best job available, I believe, in WCBB, and it should go to someone worthy of helming such a program.
Click to expand...

Truer words were never spoken! CHW lacks the ability to recognize the strength and weaknesses of her players. for example, Westbrook is a 2 shooting guard, not a true point guard, as you stated. She lacks the ability also to inspire her players to play tough at all times, as you stated. CHW is a wonderful person but not a good WCBB coach.
 
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#11
#11
Unfortunately, Tennessee having to team up with freshmen have run
into teams with experienced players and excellent coaches in the SEC that know you well.
Gary, Vic, Dawn ( without her best player) are not ruddy-poop. Add Muffet also.
Tennessee offensive schemes are easy to pick apart and there's
only two things they perform. Throw it into the Russell and the dribble
drive of Hayes ( foul shots)which are a high percentage of your points. These schemes are being exposed and Hayes size is being
exploited.
I'm starting to believe that maybe Holly lack being the head coach.
She surely lack in-game coaching and the ability to counter-punched punch or to design something more.
Her development of Davis,Westbrook and Dunbar is starting to show.
Davis in particular has a huge arsenal but it's not being used along
with other players strengths and forte. Jamie still plays out of position and where she's playing now is futile.
Whoever taught Meme on defense should train the rest.
They suck on defense big time. Vivians torched Nared and it seemed
personal. Matador D will not do.
But here's hoping coach get it together, for there's more come in this tough conference.
 
#12
#12
teacherdean said:
Sometimes the players seem to be playing how they want without any concern for coaching corrections. You would never have seen that from a Pat coached team.
Click to expand...


Holly & the other coaches offer constant correction. I've witnessed it from behind the bench both at home and away.

Holly does not try to copy Pat's stare or public berating of individual players. But that isn't always effective with this generation of players as shown by the 2009 and subsequent teams.
 
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#13
#13
1CHATTVOL said:
Holly & the other coaches offer constant correction. I've witnessed it from behind the bench both at home and away.

Holly does not try to copy Pat's stare or public berating of individual players. But that isn't always effective with this generation of players as shown by the 2009 and subsequent teams.
Click to expand...

Some years ago, my son played on a high-school freshman team. Parents had to yell to tell the players to shoot the ball because the players kept passing the ball, per instruction.

Holly is a high-school freshman basketball coach.
 
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#14
#14
Prophet1 said:
Unfortunately, Tennessee having to team up with freshmen have run
into teams with experienced players and excellent coaches in the SEC that know you well.
Gary, Vic, Dawn ( without her best player) are not ruddy-poop. Add Muffet also.
Tennessee offensive schemes are easy to pick apart and there's
only two things they perform. Throw it into the Russell and the dribble
drive of Hayes ( foul shots)which are a high percentage of your points. These schemes are being exposed and Hayes size is being
exploited.
I'm starting to believe that maybe Holly lack being the head coach.
She surely lack in-game coaching and the ability to counter-punched punch or to design something more.
Her development of Davis,Westbrook and Dunbar is starting to show.
Davis in particular has a huge arsenal but it's not being used along
with other players strengths and forte. Jamie still plays out of position and where she's playing now is futile.
Whoever taught Meme on defense should train the rest.
They suck on defense big time. Vivians torched Nared and it seemed
personal. Matador D will not do.
But here's hoping coach get it together, for there's more come in this tough conference.
Click to expand...

I actually think Nared's 1-on-1 defense on Vivians was not terrible, especially in comparison to some of the other 1-on-1 defense on display. Not to bail Nared out, because she had a rough game, but I think the problem was more about team defensive schemes...also Vivians just made some really tough shots and big plays (and we did not).
 
#15
#15
I think we must have more help defense look at the tape of Miss St Nared is met by more than the person guarding her as she closes in on the basket. State players have an open lane with only the one defender to beat.
Someone has to shoot more shots than Nared and Jackson. I understand that they should shoot a fair number of shots but they have to be much more efficient than they have been in the last few games. They also need to take shots that are considered good shots not off balance jumpers or heaves at the basket.
Got abused by Texas A&M, and Miss St on the offensive boards you want to play with them you have to rebound with them.
 
#16
#16
Holly needs to take a page from the Pat Summitt book and get this team in check. Some tough love would go a lone way. EVERY PLAYER needs to be in the dog house at this point.

Pat always focused on the things that we can control. Defense and rebounding. Those fall on the players. Rebounding and defense is about effort and hustle. I hope that CHW is letting this team know that the last 4 games (regardless of wins) we have been the weaker team because of our effort and hustle. That is what is inexcusable about this stretch. I could go on and on - but the bottom line, the players need to know that their effort and hustle are not up to Lady Vol standard and it needs to be corrected now. Telling them at this point isn't going to cut it. Holly has sat in enough practices and witnessed enough tough love from CPS that she should be able to deliver.
 
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#17
#17
Anybody think Harris, Green or KK would have stood out of bounds under the basket while MSU got up 3 shots and 2 rebounds like Russell did?

That was an awful display.
 
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#18
#18
Undercovervol said:
KK isn't hurt; she just isn't getting playing time.

It's clear from this four game stretch that we are not as good as was thought after the Texas game, or even as we went undefeated. Our weaknesses on defense have bitten us (poor dribble drive defense/help, poor rebounding, poor intensity outside of Meme Jackson.) What's worse, though, is our offense: State made us look out of sorts and undisciplined. We dribble way too much and don't know how to play outside of set plays. We're a poor passing team with an absurd amount of turnovers. We have weak mental strength as evidenced by multiple fourth quarter melt downs.
I am convinced now that Westbrook is playing out of position. She should play off-guard, not point guard, and she should look to score as much as Jaime, who has gone through a long stretch of struggling.
Someone has to run the point, and I would go with Hayes here. She has her limitations, especially defensively, but I think it will pay for us more in the long run.
Jaime started out the season so well, but her slump has really affected this team in my opinion. I think the Freshmen look to her to be a reliable offensive player, and when she fails to deliver, I think it drags the whole team down. Until Nared can produce better, I honestly believe that she should take less shots than Davis and Westbrook. There isn't much to lose at this point. I know Davis has gone through lax stretches, but we need players who can step up and produce consistently, something that I don't know that Nared can do, and Davis definitely has the talent to produce--and If she can gain confidence for us this season--that would pay for us in the long run.
Russell is the most consistent player we have, but she simply cannot dominate a game like other #1 players can. I honestly don't know if that's her problem or the coaches' problem. I have a feeling it's a bit of both.
Regardless, her defensive pressure must improve in order for us to defend the dribble drive better.
Finally, this has been beaten to death here, but I do not think CHW is the right coach for this program. There are many things within games indicative of either a lack of coaching or poor coaching. I don't think she inspires great confidence in her teams. This may be wrong of me, and I understand why CPS made the decision, however, CPS made the wrong decision in gifting the program to an assistant who never left to pursue her own opportunities. TN is still the best job available, I believe, in WCBB, and it should go to someone worthy of helming such a program.
Click to expand...

+1 and + 1 make + 2 = great analysis.I just want to add one other comment on Mercedes ....she is an offensive machine when the going is soft in the post but when it becomes physical she does not rebound or give back as good as she is taking,ie ,she just fades from the scene.I do not know why ....has the coach told her to back off to keep her out of foul trouble....that is possible ...but if she doesn't become more physical she will continue to be eaten alive by big posts like Miss State has and in the pros.
 
#19
#19
Undercovervol said:
KK isn't hurt; she just isn't getting playing time.

It's clear from this four game stretch that we are not as good as was thought after the Texas game, or even as we went undefeated. Our weaknesses on defense have bitten us (poor dribble drive defense/help, poor rebounding, poor intensity outside of Meme Jackson.) What's worse, though, is our offense: State made us look out of sorts and undisciplined. We dribble way too much and don't know how to play outside of set plays. We're a poor passing team with an absurd amount of turnovers. We have weak mental strength as evidenced by multiple fourth quarter melt downs.
I am convinced now that Westbrook is playing out of position. She should play off-guard, not point guard, and she should look to score as much as Jaime, who has gone through a long stretch of struggling.
Someone has to run the point, and I would go with Hayes here. She has her limitations, especially defensively, but I think it will pay for us more in the long run.
Jaime started out the season so well, but her slump has really affected this team in my opinion. I think the Freshmen look to her to be a reliable offensive player, and when she fails to deliver, I think it drags the whole team down. Until Nared can produce better, I honestly believe that she should take less shots than Davis and Westbrook. There isn't much to lose at this point. I know Davis has gone through lax stretches, but we need players who can step up and produce consistently, something that I don't know that Nared can do, and Davis definitely has the talent to produce--and If she can gain confidence for us this season--that would pay for us in the long run.
Russell is the most consistent player we have, but she simply cannot dominate a game like other #1 players can. I honestly don't know if that's her problem or the coaches' problem. I have a feeling it's a bit of both.
Regardless, her defensive pressure must improve in order for us to defend the dribble drive better.
Finally, this has been beaten to death here, but I do not think CHW is the right coach for this program. There are many things within games indicative of either a lack of coaching or poor coaching. I don't think she inspires great confidence in her teams. This may be wrong of me, and I understand why CPS made the decision, however, CPS made the wrong decision in gifting the program to an assistant who never left to pursue her own opportunities. TN is still the best job available, I believe, in WCBB, and it should go to someone worthy of helming such a program.
Click to expand...




I am convinced now that Westbrook is playing out of position. She should play off-guard, not point guard, and she should look to score as much as Jaime, who has gone through a long stretch of struggling.

I have said this in many other Threads: And thank you for pointing it out. Holly knows Westbrook is not a point and Hayes should be the lead guard. Hayes has her share of turnovers and it`s not good. What i would like is for Holly to do is show some fire and make Hayes shoot the 3 sometime other teams are giving her the shot. This will help cut down on her turnovers. As for Westbrook she needs to work on her jump shot.
 
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#20
#20
Nared 38 percent from the field and 26 percent from the three. She still has a 1.20 per shot attempt but she hasn't been getting to the line lately and that was about a 1.40 before this last five or six games. She has taken 269 shots, Mercedes 206 while Russell is hitting 65 percent from the field and has a 1.55 points per shot attempt definitely makes her the first option. She is so stationery in movement hard to get her the ball and her percentage is why teams want to take her away and make other players make a play. In that respect Nared has not been a very good option lately.
Westbrook at 44 percent from the field and 37 from the three and a 1.21 points per shot attempt she hasn't been able or learned how to get to the line very much. She is definitely suited for two guard and at least 10 shot attempts per game. She is attempting about 7 now needs to get to the line more.
Davis 48 percent from the field. Only a 1.19 per shot can't get to the line either.She is great from 10 feet and has that shot a lot and tries to throw a pass that bounces off Russell out of bounds quite often. She shoots several shots off balance should plant and go up she has the vertical to get her balance and score at a very high rate inside. When she learns to play insides she will be awesome.
Hayes 46 percent from the field knows how to get to the line when she has an open lane to the basket. Has a 1.67 points per shot attempt when she was playing her game and getting to the line this is even higher than Russell. You may pay with a couple turnovers a game but you may also get rewarded with a basket or a three point play.
Jackson 1.14 is a hit or miss player. She is on she can go 7 of 9 and when she is not like Sunday 0 for 8. She is the weakest of the players that play a lot on offense but is one of our best defenders when she wants to play defense.
 
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#21
#21
To add even though they scored 71 against us if we get the additional 14 shots they got that we didn't and also shoot 42 percent like they did instead of 36 that game is a dead heat. If we get those shots and shoot our seasons average we win by 10 points.
 
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#22
#22
Volfan2012 said:
Nared 38 percent from the field and 26 percent from the three. She still has a 1.20 per shot attempt but she hasn't been getting to the line lately and that was about a 1.40 before this last five or six games. She has taken 269 shots, Mercedes 206 while Russell is hitting 65 percent from the field and has a 1.55 points per shot attempt definitely makes her the first option. She is so stationery in movement hard to get her the ball and her percentage is why teams want to take her away and make other players make a play. In that respect Nared has not been a very good option lately.
Westbrook at 44 percent from the field and 37 from the three and a 1.21 points per shot attempt she hasn't been able or learned how to get to the line very much. She is definitely suited for two guard and at least 10 shot attempts per game. She is attempting about 7 now needs to get to the line more.
Davis 48 percent from the field. Only a 1.19 per shot can't get to the line either.She is great from 10 feet and has that shot a lot and tries to throw a pass that bounces off Russell out of bounds quite often. She shoots several shots off balance should plant and go up she has the vertical to get her balance and score at a very high rate inside. When she learns to play insides she will be awesome.
Hayes 46 percent from the field knows how to get to the line when she has an open lane to the basket. Has a 1.67 points per shot attempt when she was playing her game and getting to the line this is even higher than Russell. You may pay with a couple turnovers a game but you may also get rewarded with a basket or a three point play.
Jackson 1.14 is a hit or miss player. She is on she can go 7 of 9 and when she is not like Sunday 0 for 8. She is the weakest of the players that play a lot on offense but is one of our best defenders when she wants to play defense.
Click to expand...

Good numerical analysis. It shows what many have said: perhaps let Jaime shoot less, Mercedes/Hayes/Evina/Davis more.
Jackson is def hit or miss, but we need that defensive player on the floor. If she doesn’t take midrange jumpers, her percentage goes up.
 
#23
#23
The analysis left one important factor out, the level of the competition.
Run the stats contrasting our OOC schedule vs the conference games. Then you will have a more realistic representation of who is effective, in games against good competition that count, and who isn't.
 
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#24
#24
Volfan2012 said:
To add even though they scored 71 against us if we get the additional 14 shots they got that we didn't and also shoot 42 percent like they did instead of 36 that game is a dead heat. If we get those shots and shoot our seasons average we win by 10 points.
Click to expand...

71 points is actually pretty good. Tennessee was giving up an average of 78 points to ranked teams prior to this game. They just ran into a better defensive team.
 
#25
#25
Miss St is a really good team, playing seasoned talent and they were going to be ready and on a mission. Coming into this stretch, I thought the level of difficulty escalated in order and figured if the LVs went 2-2 with losses to the two best teams, that would be a good sign. The ND comeback was disheartening, but failing to close out a W at aTm in the final seconds was the worst misstep.

We have four ranked teams remaining on the schedule. It's not going to be a cakewalk. But we have another shot at aTm at home and could have a rematch with Miss St postseason. Lots of BB left to play and plenty of room for improvement.
 
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