# of UT National Championships?

#1
j_thrill

j_thrill

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#1
I've always been a fan of the Vols, but I'm fairly young so I have a question for my wiser contemporaries (I can't find an answer on the Internet):

I use to think Tennessee had won only 2 national championships ('51 & '98), but some sources (e.g. phillipfulmer.com) credit the Vols with 6 ('38, '40, '50, '51, '67, '98). Why the descrepancy? Were those other 4 awarded by less-prestigious media outlets (i.e. non-AP) and therefore aren't recognized by everyone?

Also (while I have your attention), whatever happened to Dustin Lindsey from Alcoa? I saw him in the '04 state championship game. He's a stud.
 
#2
#2
1951 and 1998 were CONSENSUS National titles. The others were disputed among the various ratings/polls although they are recognized as official by the NCAA.
 
#3
#3
Some say the only championship we won was in 1998. It all depends. UT claims 6. One of those we probably didn't rightfull deserve, but I think there is another season that we finished undefeated and unscored upon, but were not recognized. Who knows? Six national championships sounds good.
 
#4
#4
Most people consider the NCAA football champion each year to be the team crowned by one or both of the two traditionally important polls, which are the the Associated Press (voted by sportswriters) and the Coaches Poll (which has been represented in several forms, such as the UPI, and currently the ESPN/USA today poll.) The coaches poll currently automatically crowns the winner of the BCS championship game as their champion (voters only vote for 2-25;) the AP has no such restriction.

Occasionally the disagree, and two national champions are crowned, such as in 2003 when LSU won the BCS and the ESPN/USA title, and USC was voted #1 by the AP.

Tennessee has been named national champions by both polls twice, in 1951 and in 1998.

There are also a number of other ratings systems "recognized" by the NCAA that are not really followed by the general public. Most are formulaic systems rather than polls, and in today's world, they are commonly called computer polls. In addition to the '51 and '98 years, Tennessee has finished at the top of at least one of these rankings five other times: 1968 (Litkenhouse,) 1956 (Sagarin,) 1950 (Dunkel, Billingsley, Devold, Football Research, and National Championship Foundation,) 1940 (Dunkel and Williamson,) and 1938 (Billingsley, Boand, Football Research, Houlgate, Litkenhous, Poling, Sagarin, and Dunkel.)

I think the general opinion is that the "computer ranking" national championships don't really count, although Alabama certainly claims them (they won the big polls 7 times, the other polls 5, but claim 12.) Nobody, for instance, really thinks Ohio St. was national champion in 1998, even though Sagarin named them.

Tennessee has won 2 national championships, and can claim recognized titles in 5 other years that don't really count.

I have never heard anyone make the argument that UT has only won 1.
 
#5
#5
j_thrill said:
I've always been a fan of the Vols, but I'm fairly young so I have a question for my wiser contemporaries (I can't find an answer on the Internet):

I use to think Tennessee had won only 2 national championships ('51 & '98), but some sources (e.g. phillipfulmer.com) credit the Vols with 6 ('38, '40, '50, '51, '67, '98). Why the descrepancy? Were those other 4 awarded by less-prestigious media outlets (i.e. non-AP) and therefore aren't recognized by everyone?

Also (while I have your attention), whatever happened to Dustin Lindsey from Alcoa? I saw him in the '04 state championship game. He's a stud.
Click to expand...

I think Lindsey went to JUCO to try and get his grades up, and I think that is in Kansas.

AS far as the NC's, well everyone else has covered that one LOL...
 
#7
#7
kptvol said:
Some say the only championship we won was in 1998. It all depends. UT claims 6. One of those we probably didn't rightfull deserve, but I think there is another season that we finished undefeated and unscored upon, but were not recognized. Who knows? Six national championships sounds good.
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1939: Finished the regular season 9-0, no points allowed. The National Championship was still awarded prior to the bowl games, and the voters did not pick UT. UT went on to the Rose Bowl, and in an ironic twist, was shutout by USC. Apparently, the voters knew what they were doing...

Meanwhile, TAMU finished the regular season 10-0, won the National Title, and went on to beat Tulane 14-13 in the Sugar Bowl.
 
#8
#8
therealUT said:
1939: Finished the regular season 9-0, no points allowed. The National Championship was still awarded prior to the bowl games, and the voters did not pick UT. UT went on to the Rose Bowl, and in an ironic twist, was shutout by USC. Apparently, the voters knew what they were doing...
Click to expand...

Welllllll. It's hard to argue with on the field results. Still, a cross-country road game in 1939 was probably a pretty big disadvantage. Also, I think back then the entire team didn't even travel. Plus, the bowls were just exhibition. I think the score was like 13-0 USC. It still seems like the Vols deserved at least a share of the title.
 
#9
#9
kptvol said:
Welllllll. It's hard to argue with on the field results. Still, a cross-country road game in 1939 was probably a pretty big disadvantage. Also, I think back then the entire team didn't even travel. Plus, the bowls were just exhibition. I think the score was like 13-0 USC. It still seems like the Vols deserved at least a share of the title.
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I think they probably deserved a shot, however, it reminds me of the way Cal screamed about being left out of the BCS and then went and lost to Texas Tech in the Holiday Bowl. It's hard to make an argument for them after they drop the ball like that.
 
#10
#10
Also of interest, UT did not win the SEC outright that season. They split with GT and Tulane. If anything, the conference ultimately screwed UT over by constructing schedules in which it was possible for 3 teams to go undefeated within the conference. If UT had played and beaten either GT or Tulane, UT would have played in the Sugar Bowl against TAMU.
 
#11
#11
kptvol said:
Welllllll. It's hard to argue with on the field results. Still, a cross-country road game in 1939 was probably a pretty big disadvantage. Also, I think back then the entire team didn't even travel. Plus, the bowls were just exhibition. I think the score was like 13-0 USC. It still seems like the Vols deserved at least a share of the title.
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ESPN probably had something to do with it:p
 
#12
#12
kptvol said:
Some say the only championship we won was in 1998.
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?

The '51 Championship has always been recognized as consensus.

I know the polls were pre-bowl, but, if you argue that they lost the bowl afte the '51 season, then you would have to say they were the NC in '50 when they beat Beary Bryant's then #3 Kentucky (11-1) in late November and then #4 Tennessee (11-1) went on to beat #3 Texas (9-2) in the Cotton Bowl. #1 Oklahoma (10-1) was beaten by #7 Kentucky in the Sugar Bowl and #2 Army (8-1) lost to unranked Navy (3-6) on Dec. 2 after the last AP poll was taken. That is why the few rankings that were taken after the bowls list Tennessee as the 1950 NC. Regardless whether its 1950 or 1951, Tennessee should be credited for 1 consensus national championship during that period.

As a side note, my dad was at the Kentucky game that season. He said it was the coldest game he's ever been to. The Kentucky quarterback was the legendary all-american Babe Parilli. The Vols won 7-0.
 
#13
#13
kptvol said:
Welllllll. It's hard to argue with on the field results. Still, a cross-country road game in 1939 was probably a pretty big disadvantage. Also, I think back then the entire team didn't even travel. Plus, the bowls were just exhibition. I think the score was like 13-0 USC. It still seems like the Vols deserved at least a share of the title.
Click to expand...

The problem with some thinking is that we tend to view history through today's football culture. And with the BCS, the national championship has become even more important. As posted previously, my dad was at the 1950 Tennessee-Kentucky game. Although there were national championship implications in that game, my dad said that there was no discussion regarding national championship at the time. It was a big rivalry game against an all-american quarterback and the SEC Championship was considered a bigger prize than a national championship. However, in an ironic twist, Kentucky won the SEC with a 5-1 record even though they lost to Tennessee. The Vols finished with a 4-1 record.
 
#14
#14
we all hear about BAMA's 12 NC's, but many of those are disputed as well. some of them were awarded before the bowl game, and then they were beat in the bowl game
 
#15
#15
Vol Mania 21 said:
we all hear about BAMA's 12 NC's, but many of those are disputed as well. some of them were awarded before the bowl game, and then they were beat in the bowl game
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Again, I agree with crediting NC to teams even if they lost a bowl game. The way the "rules" were then, the bowls did not matter. If the bowls really mattered, then maybe the outcomes would have been different? We'll never know. So all years prior to 1967 (except 1965), the "rules" discounted bowls. If we view history by today's "culture" then we get stuck with all these retro-rankings that Alabama uses to count to twelve. Tennessee could count 7 by those standards.

As far as AP national championships, I think Alabama has 6 and Tennessee has 2.
 
#17
#17
allvol said:
?

The '51 Championship has always been recognized as consensus.

I know the polls were pre-bowl, but, if you argue that they lost the bowl afte the '51 season, then you would have to say they were the NC in '50 when they beat Beary Bryant's then #3 Kentucky (11-1) in late November and then #4 Tennessee (11-1) went on to beat #3 Texas (9-2) in the Cotton Bowl. #1 Oklahoma (10-1) was beaten by #7 Kentucky in the Sugar Bowl and #2 Army (8-1) lost to unranked Navy (3-6) on Dec. 2 after the last AP poll was taken. That is why the few rankings that were taken after the bowls list Tennessee as the 1950 NC. Regardless whether its 1950 or 1951, Tennessee should be credited for 1 consensus national championship during that period.

As a side note, my dad was at the Kentucky game that season. He said it was the coldest game he's ever been to. The Kentucky quarterback was the legendary all-american Babe Parilli. The Vols won 7-0.
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I remember reading an article about Travis Henry not that long ago. It mentioned that he helped the Vols win their only National Championship. I've heard it that way a few other times, as well.
 
#18
#18
Vol Mania 21 said:
we all hear about BAMA's 12 NC's, but many of those are disputed as well. some of them were awarded before the bowl game, and then they were beat in the bowl game
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They are not disputed because they were awarded before the bowl game; under that system, the national championship was awarded after the regular season, and the bowl was more of an exhibition and an indicator of the next season (many people credit the 1950 UT Cotton Bowl victory over Texas as helping earn them the '51 National Championship.) That was the system, and you can't re-invent the rules because we have a different system now.

Bama's 12 claimed NCs are disputed because not all of them are AP or Coaches Poll titles. A quick look through the 12 shows:

1992-AP and UPI (consensus)
1979-AP and UPI (consensus)
1978-AP; USC won the UPI (Split)
1977-Football Research; Notre Dame was the consensus NC, winning both the AP and UPI
1975-Mathews; Oklahoma was the consensus NC, winning both the AP and UPI
1973-UPI; Notre Dame won the AP (split)
1965-AP; Mich St won the UPI (split)
1964-AP and UPI (consensus)
1963-Billingsley; USC won both the AP and UPI
1961-AP and UPI (consensus)
1945-National Championship Foundation; Army won the AP and was consensus NC.
1941-Houlgate; Minnesota won the AP and was consensus NC.

I believe these are the 12 they claim, although other ranking systems named Bama #1 in 1930, 1926, and 1925.
 
#19
#19
cotton said:
They are not disputed because they were awarded before the bowl game; under that system, the national championship was awarded after the regular season, and the bowl was more of an exhibition and an indicator of the next season (many people credit the 1950 UT Cotton Bowl victory over Texas as helping earn them the '51 National Championship.) That was the system, and you can't re-invent the rules because we have a different system now.

Bama's 12 claimed NCs are disputed because not all of them are AP or Coaches Poll titles. A quick look through the 12 shows:

1992-AP and UPI (consensus)
1979-AP and UPI (consensus)
1978-AP; USC won the UPI (Split)
1977-Football Research; Notre Dame was the consensus NC, winning both the AP and UPI
1975-Mathews; Oklahoma was the consensus NC, winning both the AP and UPI
1973-UPI; Notre Dame won the AP (split)
1965-AP; Mich St won the UPI (split)
1964-AP and UPI (consensus)
1963-Billingsley; USC won both the AP and UPI
1961-AP and UPI (consensus)
1945-National Championship Foundation; Army won the AP and was consensus NC.
1941-Houlgate; Minnesota won the AP and was consensus NC.

I believe these are the 12 they claim, although other ranking systems named Bama #1 in 1930, 1926, and 1925.
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Bama has 20+ on collegefootballdatawarehouse. One of those, '41 I think, Bama didn't even finish in the top 20 of any poll.
 
#20
#20
allvol said:
The problem with some thinking is that we tend to view history through today's football culture. And with the BCS, the national championship has become even more important. As posted previously, my dad was at the 1950 Tennessee-Kentucky game. Although there were national championship implications in that game, my dad said that there was no discussion regarding national championship at the time. It was a big rivalry game against an all-american quarterback and the SEC Championship was considered a bigger prize than a national championship. However, in an ironic twist, Kentucky won the SEC with a 5-1 record even though they lost to Tennessee. The Vols finished with a 4-1 record.
Click to expand...

Although I like national championships, the most important one to me is the SEC championship. Anything other than that is just extra
 
#21
#21
thirdsaturday said:
Although I like national championships, the most important one to me is the SEC championship. Anything other than that is just extra
Click to expand...

My dad is the same way. Beating Alabama and winning the SEC..... probably in that order too.
 
#22
#22
Tennessee All National Championships

Check out this link to College Football Data Warehouse.
It credits Tennessee with 14, and gives the yearly records and the source..

Someone on here gave the link a month or so back, and there is a ton of information on here.
 
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