Assissting a runner's forward progress

#1
dono

dono

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#1
My first thread. Hope it is worthy. Was there not a time, not all that long ago, when assisting a runner's progress was illegal? Can anyone find the current applicable rule governing this aspect pf play? Obviously, since it allowed, there would be no existing rule against it. But, wasn't it once a violation?
 
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#3
#3
It was against the rules of college football as recently as 2004 or 2005, when USCw played Notre Dame and Reggie Bush famously "helped" Matt Leinart forward into the end zone on goal line play. It was still illegal then.

A couple of years later, it was no longer against the rule.

So my memory isn't perfect, but I'll guess the NCAA changed that rule somewhere around 2007 or 2008.

Surprised we haven't seen more rugby-like mauls along the lines of what our offense did the other night.

Go Vols!


EDIT: Just googled it. The old rule that prohibited pushing was: Rule 9, Section 3, Article 2b of the NCAA rule book, which used to state that "[t]he runner shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team shall grasp, push, lift or charge into him to assist him in forward progress." Today, that rule states: "The ball carrier shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team shall grasp, pull, or lift him to assist him in forward progress." Pushing and charging into the ball carrier are now ok. Grasping, pulling, and lifting him are still violations.
 
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#4
#4
dono said:
My first thread. Hope it is worthy. Was there not a time, not all that long ago, when assisting a runner's progress was illegal? Can anyone find the current applicable rule governing this aspect pf play? Obviously, since it allowed, there would be no existing rule against it. But, wasn't it once a violation?
Click to expand...

Pretty sure it's still illegal if you PULL him, like grab his arm and try to pull him forward. But it's legal to get behind him and push him. So you can push the pile, but not pull the RB.
 
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#5
#5
My friends a ref, done some NAIA football games and I asked him about this last year. Basically, he said you can’t pull or carry a runner forward, but it’s legal to push the pile from behind. I’m not sure what the old rule was but I always thought it was that you couldn’t assist any forward progress, but idk.
 
#6
#6
CourtJester said:
Pretty sure it's still illegal if you PULL him, like grab his arm and try to pull him forward. But it's legal to get behind him and push him. So you can push the pile, but not pull the RB.
Click to expand...

I have absolutely no idea about the official rules but this passes the logic test at least and would make the most sense.

On a side note, I cant tell you how proud I was to see them actually get push on that D, not just that time but several times. We havent had that aggression in quite some time.
 
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#8
#8
dono said:
My first thread. Hope it is worthy. Was there not a time, not all that long ago, when assisting a runner's progress was illegal? Can anyone find the current applicable rule governing this aspect pf play? Obviously, since it allowed, there would be no existing rule against it. But, wasn't it once a violation?
Click to expand...

It changed at some point in the last few years. I know in the 2016 Florida game the OL pushed Jaden Hurd about 10 yards down to the gator 3 yd line because Gary Danielson was freaking out that someone might get hurt because of it.

Of course, Gary also wondered during the 2015 UGA game, after Hurd lowered his shoulder and ran over a dawg DB, when the NCAA would consider targeting RBs who targeted DBs by lowering their shoulder. That's when I realized Gary was a snowflake. How is a defender squared to take on a RB a defenseless player, Gary?
 
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#9
#9
dono said:
My first thread. Hope it is worthy. Was there not a time, not all that long ago, when assisting a runner's progress was illegal? Can anyone find the current applicable rule governing this aspect pf play? Obviously, since it allowed, there would be no existing rule against it. But, wasn't it once a violation?
Click to expand...

Solid first thread and a good question.
 
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#10
#10
dono said:
My first thread. Hope it is worthy. Was there not a time, not all that long ago, when assisting a runner's progress was illegal? Can anyone find the current applicable rule governing this aspect pf play? Obviously, since it allowed, there would be no existing rule against it. But, wasn't it once a violation?
Click to expand...

YES. Just a year or two ago; and I hate it! It is totally unfair to the defense, when the offense is given credit for forward progress. and the defense is penalized, simply because they get outnumbered.
 
#11
#11
VFL-82-JP said:
It was against the rules of college football as recently as 2004 or 2005, when USCw played Notre Dame and Reggie Bush famously "helped" Matt Leinart forward into the end zone on goal line play. It was still illegal then.

A couple of years later, it was no longer against the rule.

So my memory isn't perfect, but I'll guess the NCAA changed that rule somewhere around 2007 or 2008.

Surprised we haven't seen more rugby-like mauls along the lines of what our offense did the other night.

Go Vols!


EDIT: Just googled it. The old rule that prohibited pushing was: Rule 9, Section 3, Article 2b of the NCAA rule book, which used to state that "[t]he runner shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team shall grasp, push, lift or charge into him to assist him in forward progress." Today, that rule states: "The ball carrier shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team shall grasp, pull, or lift him to assist him in forward progress." Pushing and charging into the ball carrier are now ok. Grasping, pulling, and lifting him are still violations.
Click to expand...
I want to say they changed the rule right after that season.
 
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#12
#12
VFL-82-JP said:
EDIT: Just googled it. The old rule that prohibited pushing was: Rule 9, Section 3, Article 2b of the NCAA rule book, which used to state that "[t]he runner shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team shall grasp, push, lift or charge into him to assist him in forward progress." Today, that rule states: "The ball carrier shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team shall grasp, pull, or lift him to assist him in forward progress." Pushing and charging into the ball carrier are now ok. Grasping, pulling, and lifting him are still violations.
Click to expand...
Thanks for finding the rules. But my reading is that both the push that Tim Jordan got as well as the winning TD that BYU got on us were violations. Am I missing something?
 
#13
#13
dono said:
Thanks for finding the rules. But my reading is that both the push that Tim Jordan got as well as the winning TD that BYU got on us were violations. Am I missing something?
Click to expand...

I don't remember the BYU game push assist. But in our game vs Bama, that was not a violation of the rules, because our linemen did not pull, lift or grasp Jordan. They simply got behind him and pushed. Which is no longer mentioned in the rule as a violation.
 
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#14
#14
VFL-82-JP said:
I don't remember the BYU game push assist. But in our game vs Bama, that was not a violation of the rules, because our linemen did not pull, lift or grasp Jordan. They simply got behind him and pushed. Which is no longer mentioned in the rule as a violation.
Click to expand...
Now I am completely confused, The current rule, which you kindly quoted includes "...no other player of his team shall grasp, push, lift or charge into him to assist him in forward progress." Am I losing my grasp of English? Or is possibly that Tenn players were pushing on Bama players, not on Jordan? But how is it possible to judge that?
 
#15
#15
As others have said it happened in the USCw vs ND National viewing game & caused the conversation and the rule was appended.
I've always thought if you had a RB with very strong legs & core and practiced a give him the ball and circle the carrier with big OL, centers & guards hold their positions and tackles flare in and get behind him for a push. The RB would have to take short choppy forward moving steps.
It could also just be something that can't be drawn up and just happens
but interesting to think about.
 
#16
#16
dono said:
Now I am completely confused, The current rule, which you kindly quoted includes "...no other player of his team shall grasp, push, lift or charge into him to assist him in forward progress." Am I losing my grasp of English? Or is possibly that Tenn players were pushing on Bama players, not on Jordan? But how is it possible to judge that?
Click to expand...

Read my post again. That's the old rule, as it stood back in 2005. Look for the words, "old rule" and "used to state". I also provide the new (current) rule, at the end of that paragraph.

p.s. You don't live in Elkmont, Alabama, by any chance, do you, Dono?
 
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#17
#17
VFL-82-JP said:
Read my post again. That's the old rule, as it stood back in 2005. Look for the words, "old rule" and "used to state". I also provide the new (current) rule, at the end of that paragraph.

p.s. You don't live in Elkmont, Alabama, by any chance, do you, Dono?
Click to expand...
My goodness. I totally misread that not just once but multiple times. Scary.
But no. Though I was once exiled in Jawga, my current residence is, and hopefully shall always be one mile from Steve Spurrier Field in Johnson City.
 
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#18
#18
Football: Helping The Ball Carrier
Posted: December 7, 2014 | Author: The DA Blog | Filed under: Uncategorized |Leave a comment
SHORT ANSWER: You can push the ball carrier; you cannot pull him.



NCAA Football 2013 and 2014 Rules and Interpretations Rule 9, Section 3, Article 2-b (Page FR-96 or 98/216 on my reader) states:

The ball carrier shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team
shall grasp, pull, or lift him to assist him in forward progress.​

Football: Helping The Ball Carrier
 
#19
#19
It should be against the rules again.

JMO.

Also, refs need to blow whistle for forward progress quicker. Don’t like these fumbles where I guy is held up and 5 guys tug at him until the ball comes free
 
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#20
#20
dono said:
My first thread. Hope it is worthy. Was there not a time, not all that long ago, when assisting a runner's progress was illegal? Can anyone find the current applicable rule governing this aspect pf play? Obviously, since it allowed, there would be no existing rule against it. But, wasn't it once a violation?
Click to expand...
Great question; I've asked myself this several times, but didn't know that they had changed the rule.
 
#23
#23
It is affectionately known as the Bush Push. Happened, illegally mind you, I believe in the USC/ND game mentioned earlier when Reggie Bush helped Matt Leinert score on a sneak at the goal line in 2005.
 
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#25
#25
99gator said:
It should be against the rules again.
Click to expand...

I do agree with this, if only because football in its current construct is "a game of inches"....and there's no way to determine where inside a large maul the ball is at any given point.

Doesn't much matter in rugby, because play doesn't stop nearly as often, there is no "line to gain," and so inches aren't important.
 
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