Why do some coordinators fail as head coaches.

#1
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volberry

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#1
It looks like Pruit will turn out good. But why do some do bad? Why is Smart good at uga. Why did Mullen do good at MSU? Why did Strong fail at his stops? Why did Sarkisan fail? There seems to not be a correlation to offense or defense.
 
#3
#3
volberry said:
It looks like Pruit will turn out good. But why do some do bad? Why is Smart good at uga. Why did Mullen do good at MSU? Why did Strong fail at his stops? Why did Sarkisan fail? There seems to not be a correlation to offense or defense.
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Some people are good leaders of men and others are only good at leading boys. Usually it’s about commanding (not demanding) respect. Grown men (assistant coaches) don’t usually respond well to someone they don’t respect.
 
#4
#4
volberry said:
It looks like Pruit will turn out good. But why do some do bad? Why is Smart good at uga. Why did Mullen do good at MSU? Why did Strong fail at his stops? Why did Sarkisan fail? There seems to not be a correlation to offense or defense.
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Coordinators are coaches and x’s and o’s guys. Head Coaches are CEO’s, they may coach a position group but they are the mangers of the overall team.
 
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#5
#5
It is now their job to create the identity of the team. Sure they can still help out on the Xs and Os, but the part so many fail at is being able to lead and oversee the entire team.
 
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#8
#8
volberry said:
It looks like Pruit will turn out good. But why do some do bad? Why is Smart good at uga. Why did Mullen do good at MSU? Why did Strong fail at his stops? Why did Sarkisan fail? There seems to not be a correlation to offense or defense.
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It's a totally different job. You go from middle management to CEO. You have to let go as a Coordinator and make sure you give enough attention to other aspects of game such as managing coaches, recruiting, monitoring academic performance, PR and above all Leadership and motivation....and let's not forget, that you have to be solid on real time game day decisions.
 
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#9
#9
I don’t pretend to know the answer to that difficult question. Then there’s the issue of Orgeron failing (miserably) at Ole Miss but succeeding beyond any of our expectations at LSU. Now I understand there’s a different talent level but still. I think the answer lies somewhere between the strategic level and implementation level which separates HEAD COACH from COORDINATOR or POSITION COACH. They inherently operate on a different level. I think CJP is learning how to operate on the strategic level now. It’s just a completely different dynamic. Just like running an entire corporation verses directing the personnel making the gadget. But I’ve retired from all those levels and NEVER EVER ask me to be in charge of anybody or anything ever again. 😝😝
 
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#10
#10
HuntlandVolinColo said:
It's a totally different job. You go from middle management to CEO. You have to let go as a Coordinator and make sure you give enough attention to other aspects of game such as managing coaches, recruiting, monitoring academic performance, PR and above all Leadership and motivation....and let's not forget, that you have to be solid on real time game day decisions.
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I think we must have been thinking the same thing at the same time.
 
#11
#11
It's not just about coaching or developing players when you make the jump. There are a lot of details involved a lot of extra non football things on your plate.

The best HCs prioritize and hire guys they can delegate to. Most of those dont figure that out right away but they always figure it out. Those that dont wont last long.
 
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#12
#12
You ever hear of 'Peter's Principle'?

It's a business concept that describes how people tend to rise to their "level of incompetence". In short, if you are good at job, you get a promotion. That cycle happens over and over until you find yourself in a position that you no longer excel in and you are stuck, doing mediocre work or if you're in the coaching world - fired.

It's pretty simple, some people just are not cut out to be head coaches. It's a completely different skill set than managing an offense or defense. It's probably why a guy like Clemson's Brent Venables has spent 21 years a Defensive Coordinator. It's a different world as head coach, he knows that is content being an excellent coordinator instead of a mediocre head coach.
 
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#13
#13
I wouldn't consider Smart successful yet. He can recruit lights out, but I'm not sold on his knowledge of X's and O's. With 20 5*s on the field, the wins will come... just not those national titles.
 
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#16
#16
Same reason some middle management fails when promoted to upper management. Some people just don't have it in them to be the big boss.
 
#17
#17
BigOrangeLoyalist said:
I wouldn't consider Smart successful yet. He can recruit lights out, but I'm not sold on his knowledge of X's and O's. With 20 5*s on the field, the wins will come... just not those national titles.
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You don't consider a coach who is 44-12 successful yet but Pruitt is 12-12 and he is the answer? Orange Kool-aid by the gallons being served at your house? Smartt's record and coaching ability is about right on part with Fulmer's through this point in their career.
 
#18
#18
The skill sets are different enough that excellent coordinators fail as HC's.

HC's set culture, direction, and expectations. The ones that fail... fail at those foremost.
 
#19
#19
Bigun said:
You don't consider a coach who is 44-12 successful yet but Pruitt is 12-12 and he is the answer? Orange Kool-aid by the gallons being served at your house? Smartt's record and coaching ability is about right on part with Fulmer's through this point in their career.
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I am not calling Pruitt a success. I don't know if he will succeed. But when you strip the context of where the programs were when the two took over out of the reasoning... you really can't make an honest comparison.

FTR, I'm not convinced that Smart won't waste as much talent as Richt did at UGA. Not yet. They had injuries this year... but the way that O played is not reflective of a program that has recruited as well as they have.
 
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#20
#20
volberry said:
It looks like Pruit will turn out good. But why do some do bad? Why is Smart good at uga. Why did Mullen do good at MSU? Why did Strong fail at his stops? Why did Sarkisan fail? There seems to not be a correlation to offense or defense.
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Strong was good at Louisville. Some of it may have to do with fit. And some are better at the scheming aspect of things than the overall management of a program.

Bob Stoops, Jimbo Fisher, and Phillip Fulmer are others I can think of who went from coordinator to big time job and succeeded. Bo Pelini is another who failed.
 
#21
#21
sjt18 said:
I am not calling Pruitt a success. I don't know if he will succeed. But when you strip the context of where the programs were when the two took over out of the reasoning... you really can't make an honest comparison.

FTR, I'm not convinced that Smart won't waste as much talent as Richt did at UGA. Not yet. They had injuries this year... but the way that O played is not reflective of a program that has recruited as well as they have.
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I mean I guess, but I would take 44-12 and an underperforming offense and winning the Sugar Bowl by 2 TD's with 14 starters out over what we have gone through. Also, if you are saying that Smart is underpeforming on offense with the talent he has recruited and that jury is still out on him then did you think the same about Fulmer?
 
#22
#22
First challenge is avoiding the distractions. There are a wide range of these. A gamut of social duties totally unrelated to coaching football, representing the university in all kinds of venues. Having to interact with the media on an almost daily basis. Having to interact with boosters and state politicians on a regular basis. Having to manage the business side of the program, from budget to hiring, firing and the day-to-day staff problems, to driving key decisions on facilities and grounds. And then, the fame, the distractions of the other sort, the kind that let you blow off steam (but could land you in trouble if you go too far in any of a variety of directions). Just a world of distraction beyond what Coordinators feel. Can be easy to lose focus on football. This seems to be what got Sarkisian. It was Butch's biggest weakness. And Dooley's. And Kiffin's. It's definitely what got guys like Price at Bama a decade or so ago.

Second challenge is the expansion, almost explosion, of leadership span of control. A coordinator may (or may not) have leadership responsibilities over the position coaches on his side of the line of scrimmage, but every head coach has responsibility for the selection, guidance, mentoring, and leadership of every single assistant coach, plus a fair few other key members of the extended staff. If you just want to design plays and teach players how to execute them well, this can be a super hard part of the new job. Blemishes in his leadership style may be what got Taggart.

Third challenge is delegation. As in, learning how to. Because he's now responsible for both sides of the ball, and special teams to boot, the head coach must delegate some of what he was used to doing (and not only doing, but doing SO WELL that it's how he got the head coaching gig!). It's hard to let a subordinate take over one's specialty so that he can devote more attention to the other aspects of the job. But gotta be done. This may have been Smart's challenge. Frankly, this is the one i thought might get Pruitt, but he seems to be doing a good job of delegating as much as he needs to (while still staying pretty strongly engaged in the defense during most practice periods).

There are certainly other challenges as well. Those are the big three, as I understand the job. And I listed them in the order that they probably hurt careers. Distractions most often, then leadership stumbles, and finally inability to delegate and get the wider view.

Thank goodness we seem (so far) to be beyond all three with CJP.

Go Vols!
 
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#23
#23
Some are just really good at one thing. Kiffin is an excellent developer of QBs and an OC but he will be nothing more than slightly above average at Ole Miss.
 
#24
#24
VFL-82-JP said:
First challenge is avoiding the distractions. There are a wide range of these. A gamut of social duties totally unrelated to football, representing the university in all kinds of venues. Having to interact with the media on an almost daily basis. Having to interact with boosters on a regular basis. Having to manage the business side of the program, from budget to hiring, firing and the day-to-day staff problems, to driving key decisions on facilities and grounds.
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Head coaches at big time programs are expected to be quasi-politicians...the glad-handing, meeting with boosters, etc. It's the reason why guys like Mike Leach and Chip Kelly have not taken "blue blood" jobs - they either aren't good at or don't want to do this. To put it mildly, it's a job that few people are cut out for.

Personally, I have doubts if Pruitt is great at that kind of thing. Fortunately, if you win enough, you don't have to be good at it because ultimately everybody just wants to win. One thing I think Pruitt does have a good handle on, and this is the Saban influence showing, is understanding how important it is to have a good staff and manage people. I heard him say once (can't remember if it was a press conference or Vol Calls) that the average person thinks playcalling/in-game decision-making is 95% of the job. He said that's actually about 5% of the job. That tells me he has a solid big picture view of his role...that doesn't guarantee success but there are a ton of coordinators out there who have failed as head coaches because they don't have that view.

Ultimately, if you want to be a good head coach, you have to be a good manager/overseer of people.
 
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#25
#25
Bigun said:
Also, if you are saying that Smart is underpeforming on offense with the talent he has recruited and that jury is still out on him then did you think the same about Fulmer?
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Yes. Fulmer's tenure at UT had two distinct segments.... with Cut and without Cut. The O's with Cut were excellent and often exceeded the level of talent UT had like the year UT had one of the best passing O's in the country with Lucas Taylor as their best WR... and a very weak OL.

In the 16 seasons from '93 to '08, UT scored over 400 points in a season 7 times (remember the 12th game was added in '06). Six of those O's were coached by Cut. The outlier was 2001 when UT scored exactly 400 points. A Cutcliffe UT O never scored less than 362 points in a season.

In the years without Cut, not only did Fulmer's teams fail to score over 400 save that one year... they scored UNDER 300 points 3 times. That includes 205 points and 208 points on either side of Cut's last two years at UT when UT scored 362 and 455.

Without Cut, Fulmer consistently underperformed his offensive talent.
 
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