Once and For All: The Fulmer Debate Ends Here

Should Phillip Fulmer Have Been Fired?

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#2,903
#2,903
kptvol said:
I'd be interested to know at which juncture UF had twice as many NFLers as UT. I'm sure it likely happened towards the end of Phil's tenure, but not in the 90s.
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You are correct. In fact, in the 1998, 1999, and 2000 drafts, Tennessee was actually deeper in terms of players drafted and where they were drafted.

From 1997 to 2000, Florida had 7 first round picks and Tennessee had 6. However, over that same timeframe, Florida had 3 second round picks while Tennessee had 7.

Florida had 22 total players drafted while Tennessee had 26.

1997 NFL Draft
Florida
Ike Hilliard (Round 1, Pick 7)
Reidel Anthony (Round 1, Pick 16)
Danny Wuerffel (Round 4, Pick 99)
Jeff Mitchell (Round 5, Pick 134)
Tennessee
Joey Kent (Round 2, Pick 46)
Jay Graham (Round 3, Pick 64)
Raymond Austin (Round 5, Pick 145)
1998 NFL Draft
Florida
Fred Taylor (Round 1, Pick 9)
Mo Collins (Round 1, Pick 23)
Jacquez Green (Round 2, Pick 34)
Fred Weary (Round 4, Pick 97)
Elijah Williams (Round 6, Pick 166)
Tennessee
Peyton Manning (Round 1, Pick 1)
Terry Fair (Round 1, Pick 20)
Marcus Nash (Round 1, Pick 30)
Leonard Little (Round 3, Pick 65)
Jonathan Brown (Round 3, Pick 90)
Trey Teague (Round 7, Pick 200)
Andy McCullough (Round 7, Pick 204)
Corey Gaines (Round 7, Pick 231)
1999 NFL Draft
Florida
Jevon Kearse (Round 1, Pick 16)
Reggie McGrew (Round 1, Pick 24)
Mike Peterson (Round 2, Pick 36)
Johnny Rutledge (Round 2, Pick 51)
Zach Piller (Round 3, Pick 81)
Tony George (Round 3, Pick 91)
Travis McGriff (Round 3, Pick 93)
Terry Jackson (Round 5, Pick 157)
Tennessee
Al Wilson (Round 1, Pick 31)
Peerless Price (Round 2, Pick 53)
Shawn Bryson (Round 3, Pick 86)
Steve Johnson (Round 6, Pick 170)
Jeff Hall (Round 6, Pick 181)
Corey Terry (Round 7, Pick 250)
2000 NFL Draft
Florida
Travis Taylor (Round 1, Pick 10)
Erron Kinney (Round 3, Pick 68)
Darrell Jackson (Round 3, Pick 80)
Cooper Carlisle (Round 4, Pick 112)
Eugene McCaslin (Round 7, Pick 249)
Tennessee
Jamal Lewis (Round 1, Pick 5)
Shaun Ellis (Round 1, Pick 12)
Raynoch Thompson (Round 2, Pick 41)
Chad Clifton (Round 2, Pick 44)
Dwayne Goodrich (Round 2, Pick 49)
Cosey Coleman (Round 2, Pick 51)
Deon Grant (Round 2, Pick 57)
Darwin Walker (Round 3, Pick 71)
Tee Martin (Round 5, Pick 163)
 
#2,904
#2,904
Bottom line: Fulmer is gone.

And he's not coming back. At least not as a coach.

It was time for him to go. He lost whatever magic he had. His winning percentage against Top 25 teams was less than stellar. Meyer owned him, and in how many games did we watch Fulmer (and staff) snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (Hint: think the 2001 SECCG...UF...KSU...and Penn State). If not for the perennial weak November schedule, his "amazing win percentage" would have been much less amazing, or impressive. Fact is...with few exceptions...once Fulmer ran into top-notch teams, he was exposed for the mediocre game-day coach that he was. Take away superior talent, and Fulmer was mortal. Painfully so.

You can blow your "Fulmer trumpets" as long, and as loud, as you choose. Your prerogative. But at the end of the day, the bottom line is that it was time for Fulmer to go...and he's gone.

Funny that most of the FBS AD's, with no loyalty to either side of the argument, seem to be in agreement that Fulmer is past his prime. Otherwise, he would have received a very solid offer, no?

It is what it is. History.

Go Vols.
 
#2,905
#2,905
I'm sort of a draft geek across all sports, so what the heck; here's more recent results for both teams.

2010 NFL Draft
Florida
Joe Haden (1st round, 7th overall)
Maurkice Pouncey (1st round, 18th overall)
Tim Tebow (1st round, 25th overall)
Jermaine Cunningham (2nd round, 53rd overall)
Carlos Dunlap (2nd round, 54th overall)
Brandon Spikes (2nd round, 62nd overall)
Major Wright (3rd round, 75th overall)
Aaron Hernandez (4th round, 113rd overall)
Riley Cooper (5th round, 159th overall)
Tennesssee
Eric Berry (1st round, 5th overall)
Dan Williams (1st round, 26th overall)
Montario Hardesty (2nd round, 59th overall)
Jacques McClendon (4th round, 129th overall)
Chris Scott (5th round, 151st overall)
Jonathan Crompton (5th round, 168th overall)

Totals
Florida - 9 (3 first rounders)
Tennessee - 6 (1 first rounder)

2009 NFL Draft
Florida
Percy Harvin (1st round, 22nd overall)
Louis Murphy (4th round, 124th overall)
Cornelius Ingram (5th round, 153rd overall)
Tennessee
Robert Ayers (1st round, 18th overall)

Totals
Florida - 3 (1 first rounder)
Tennessee - 1 (1 first rounder)
 
#2,907
#2,907
2008 NFL Draft
Florida
Derrick Harvey (1st round, 8th overall)
Andre Caldwell (3rd round, 97th overall)
Tennessee
Jerod Mayo (1st round, 10th overall)
Brad Cottam (3rd round, 76th overall)
Erik Ainge (5th round, 162nd overall)

Totals
Florida - 2 (1 first rounder)
Tennessee - 3 (1 first rounder)

2007 NFL Draft
Florida
Jarvis Moss (1st round, 17th overall)
Reggie Nelson (1st round, 21st overall)
Ray McDonald (3rd round, 97th overall)
Marcus Thomas (4th round, 121nd overall)
Joe Cohen (4th round, 135th overall)
Ryan Smith (6th round, 206th overall)
Dallas Baker (7th round, 227th overall)
DeShawn Wynn (7th round, 228th overall)
Brandon Siler (7th round, 240th overall)
Tennessee
Justin Harrell (1st round, 16th overall)
Robert Meachen (1st round, 27th overall)
Arron Sears (2nd round, 35th overall)
Turk McBride (2nd round, 54th overall)
Jonathan Wade (3rd round, 84th overall)
Marvin Mitchell (7th round, 220th overall)

Totals
Florida - 9 (2 first rounders)
Tennessee - 6 (2 first rounders)
 
#2,908
#2,908
2006 NFL Draft
Florida
Chad Jackson (2nd round, 36th overall)
Jeremy Mincey (6th round, 191st overall)
Dee Webb (7th round, 236th overall)
Tennessee
Jason Allen (1st round, 16th overall)
Parys Haralson (5th round, 140th overall)
Omar Gaither (5th round, 168th overall)
Jesse Mahelona (5th round, 169th overall)
Kevin Simon (7th round, 250th overall)

Totals
Florida - 3 (0 first rounders)
Tennessee - 5 (1 first rounder)

I won't keep going further with Florida, but might with Georgia and LSU, since they were the dominant teams in the SEC during those years.

Anyway, the 2007 draft is surprising. Florida was coming off of their national title, but Tennessee was able to have the same number of first rounders (2) as Florida and only had 3 less players drafted.
 
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#2,911
#2,911
IFulmer thing lingers much longer it will take 50 years for the folks to get over Pearl because he is coaching like he knows something bad is coming
 
#2,912
#2,912
I see the GoF and acolytes continue to be flummoxed by VegasVol in this thread.

Consistency reigns on VolNation!
 
#2,916
#2,916
utgibbs said:
I see the GoF and acolytes continue to be flummoxed by VegasVol in this thread.

Consistency reigns on VolNation!
Click to expand...

The part where he threw out two pieces of data, both of which were soon proven to be completely untrue, was where he really took control.
 
#2,917
#2,917
Volfan8282 said:
I only bothered to look at 2 of your stats b/c I just don't have that kind of time. But, astoundingly, the two that I looked at (Spurrier's winning percentage against Bowden & Brown's winning percentage in general against .750 coaches in the Big 12) were wrong.... blatantly wrong.

1) Mack Brown @ Texas has lost a total of 24 Big 12 games. Of those 24 losses, 8 were against coaches w/ a .750 winning percentage:
4-1 against Solich
5-7 against Stoops

= Total of 9-8 (.529)

2) Steve Spurrier vs. Bowden
= 5-8-1 (.357)
Click to expand...

Solich didn't have a 75% win rate in-conference; he was 33-16 in conference. The fact you try to claim Solich as a "good coach" shows the absurdity and arbitrariness of your standard that a coach fired after 6 years counts as a "good" coach but coaches like Bill Snyder are "bad" coaches. I had Brown as 4-8 against Stoops; he's 5-7. Big deal. Here's Brown total record against in-conference 75% winners

vs. Stoops 5-7
vs. Bowden 0-6

So, according to you, Brown was an awful coach at UNC too.

As for Spurrier, you have with 1 more win against Bowden than I did. You still do understand that a 35% win rate, according to you, is a sign of a bad coach, right? Or have you already forgot your own standard? And, as with Brown, Spurrier's record at South Carolina is no better against the "good" coaches you identified, either.

Spurrier @ South Carolina
vs. 75% in-conference coaches you identified
5-13 (28% win rate)
vs. Meyer 2-4
vs. Miles 0-2
vs. Richt 2-4
vs. Saban 1-1
vs. Chizik 0-2

You just keep changing your standard to fit a preconceived argument rather than deal with the evident and manifest contradictions in your argument, as well as the arbitrary and dubious assumptions within it (an argument entirely built on the facade that the talent advantages of Florida are no different than the talent opportunities of Tennessee.)
 
#2,918
#2,918
kptvol said:
The part where he threw out two pieces of data, both of which were soon proven to be completely untrue, was where he really took control.
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Except for the fact they weren't false. Did Spurrier have a winning record against Bowden or not? Does Brown have a winning record against Stoops or Bowden, or not? Did Bowden have a winning record against Miami when they had top-flight coaches? Did the Bear against Neyland? How about JoePa against the top-flight programs in the Big 10? How about Carr against Tressell? How about Osborne against Swizter? Does their failures make them "bad" coaches and Solich a "good" coach? Is Bowden better than Spurrier, since he has a winning record against him? Has Spurrier been awful at South Carolina and Saban awful at Michigan State?

Most importantly, when do we factor in the talent advantages of a program rather than focus on win rate in isolation? Or do you decide to arbitrarily only consider that data when the coach is someone other Fulmer, where you suddenly shift standards for the 250th time?
 
#2,919
#2,919
VolDad said:
I am shocked that nobody in 2 years has been able to duplicate his 17 years. Truly a testament to his greatness.
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All they have to do is go 9-3 (you do understand "win rate", right?) and you told me that's so easy at Tennessee in the modern SEC, that any coach who merely does that is a failure.
 
#2,920
#2,920
VolDad said:
Both first year coaches won more in their 1st season than Fulmer did in his 17th.
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Both coaches won more games in their first year than Fulmer did in his worst season in Knoxville. Superb logic! They also did worse than Fulmer did in 15 other seasons in Knoxville.
 
#2,921
#2,921
kptvol said:
Feel free to provide us with your list of the SEC's top coaches over Fulmer's tenure and his record against them.
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Feel free to provide us with our record against those coaches over the post-Fulmer era. Would it be 1-7? Would 1-7 be a worse rate than 30%? Is the "how-did-they-do-against-75% in-conference-win-rate-coaches" an arbitrarily chosen standard which tells us Bear Bryant is one of the worst coaches in the history of the SEC but Solich one of the best in the history of the Big 12, and better than his predecessor Osborne, if you were to buy such a ludicrous standard?

The argument has always been the one you want to ignore -- could we likely do better than Fulmer, not whether Fulmer did as well at Tennessee in his last five years as coaches did at much more talent-rich programs in the SEC. So far, the answer is an evident and clear no.
 
#2,922
#2,922
VegasVol said:
Solich didn't have a 75% win rate in-conference; he was 33-16 in conference. The fact you try to claim Solich as a "good coach" shows the absurdity and arbitrariness of your standard that a coach fired after 6 years counts as a "good" coach but coaches like Bill Snyder are "bad" coaches. I had Brown as 4-8 against Stoops; he's 5-7. Big deal. Here's Brown total record against in-conference 75% winners

vs. Stoops 5-7
vs. Bowden 0-6

So, according to you, Brown was an awful coach at UNC too.

As for Spurrier, you have with 1 more win against Bowden than I did. You still do understand that a 35% win rate, according to you, is a sign of a bad coach, right? Or have you already forgot your own standard? And, as with Brown, Spurrier's record at South Carolina is no better against the "good" coaches you identified, either.

Spurrier @ South Carolina
vs. 75% in-conference coaches you identified
5-13 (28% win rate)
vs. Meyer 2-4
vs. Miles 0-2
vs. Richt 2-4
vs. Saban 1-1
vs. Chizik 0-2

You just keep changing your standard to fit a preconceived argument rather than deal with the evident and manifest contradictions in your argument, as well as the arbitrary and dubious assumptions within it (an argument entirely built on the facade that the talent advantages of Florida are no different than the talent opportunities of Tennessee.)
Click to expand...

It's ironic that you keep telling me that I'm changing my standards when I'm simply not. However, you clearly are. If you had paid any attention to my stats of the coaches that Fulmer fell on his face against, you would know that I provided their stats on the whole while they were at an SEC program. For example, I provided Saban's record on the whole at LSU, not just his SEC record. I did the same thing with Solich at Nebraska. He had a .753 winning percentage at Nebraska.

It is asinine to compare UNC and South Carolina football to Texas and Tennessee. Consequently, I have no idea why you threw out Brown and Spurrier's records at those schools. Funny enough, I believe Fulmer was only 2-2 against Spurrier while he was at South Carolina... Fairly pathetic when you consider the talent difference (or should be) and overall program difference. Btw, you're the one who stated "Brown @ Texas"... Now you're giving me his UNC record... Who keeps changing the standard again??

Another change in your approach is that you picked one coach that Spurrier struggled with while he was at Florida, while I gave you 6 different coaches at 4 different programs over the course of 17 seasons. If Fulmer had been piss poor against just one guy, you might have a point. And, for a while before the SEC hired coaches who knew how to run a program, it was just one guy. That changed around 1999, and Fulmer was completely exposed.

Nice try.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
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#2,924
#2,924
VegasVol said:
Feel free to provide us with our record against those coaches over the post-Fulmer era. Would it be 1-7? Would 1-7 be a worse rate than 30%? Is the "how-did-they-do-against-75% in-conference-win-rate-coaches" an arbitrarily chosen standard which tells us Bear Bryant is one of the worst coaches in the history of the SEC but Solich one of the best in the history of the Big 12, and better than his predecessor Osborne, if you were to buy such a ludicrous standard?

The argument has always been the one you want to ignore -- could we likely do better than Fulmer, not whether Fulmer did as well at Tennessee in his last five years as coaches did at much more talent-rich programs in the SEC. So far, the answer is an evident and clear no.
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I don't need to provide anything. Fulmer was fired, which is what I wanted. No one has hired him. Since his firing, two different coaches have come in and posted superior records with the scraps from the 2008 team. You're the one trying to disprove the common notion that he wasn't that great with arguments about championships not being very important, winning percentages against coaches with certain winning percentages, certain teams having double the talent of Tennessee, etc.
 
#2,925
#2,925
VegasVol said:
The argument has always been the one you want to ignore -- could we likely do better than Fulmer, not whether Fulmer did as well at Tennessee in his last five years as coaches did at much more talent-rich programs in the SEC. So far, the answer is an evident and clear no.
Click to expand...

Definitely. Fulmer losing to Vanderbilt with a loaded 2005 team and then to Wyoming in 2008 with senior-laden roster is clearly the same as Dooley and Kiffin getting bowl-eligible in year one with virtually zero depth and freshmen and walk-ons contributing so much.
 
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