2 things that BLEW my simple mind........

#1
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arTfuldodger

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#1
Completely separate issues here gents. And since I'm a politics novice, I'll put them both in one thread and see what happens. Please keep in mind that I'm self-educated on many and these issues, if @ all. I am bringing these up bc I found them intriguing and want y'alls opinion or thoughts on them.

1.I was talking to an attorney yesterday about 1st ammendment rights, and he expressed concern as to the actual definition of "religion". We really haven't defined religion. Secular Humanism gets the protection of the state, while intelligent design is attacked. Both are similar in their nature, that they are "religiously" followed or believed. Why one and not the other?


2.The #1 environmental strain on our current society? Take a guess........The lack of emphasis and thus dedication to the FAMILY. That's right. 1940- Mom,Dad,son,daughter,dog= 1 house, 1/2 cars, 1 TV, 1 trip to grocery store, vet, ect.....
2011- Mommy/son/daughter + Daddy/same-son/same-daughter/= @ least 2 cars, @ least 2 homes, @ least 2 TV's, @ least 2sets of toys, 2 sets of clothes, 2 dogs, 2 EVERYTHING...... We are now on our 2nd generation that simply put, doesn't "get it". They decided in the 60's that all this stuff didn't matter, and we are dealing with the unintended consequences now and without a nation that repents and turns from its ways, its gonna get worse, not better....forever.
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. Again, I can't put it as eloquently as most, and I'm clearly no expert, but on a simple level, these are spot on to me. Please feel free to add perspective or opinion as you feel the need. Thanks and sorry I'm not a Harvard man that uses all the cool words the attorney used.
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#2
#2
After reading the post again: just in case it wasn't clear, these aren't my original thoughts. However, I do believe them to be accurate.
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#3
#3
The fact that secular humanism and/or atheism/agnosticism are either religious or so religiously significant as to have a genuine bearing on the application of the 1st Amendment SHOULD have everyone concerned with rights and freedoms clamoring for an end to public education.

Your lawyer friend is correct. The official state religion of the US right now is secular humanism.

Be ready. Those who believe it should be the favored worldview are about to sweep in and deny that it is religious or that it threatens the "free practice" of religion simply by being the predominate philosophy in modern US gov't institutions.
 
#4
#4
State religion. That's the term I was looking for. Thanks sjt. Also, once brought to the forefront, this will blow the courts wide open, no?
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#5
#5
Has Congress established a religion, or enforced the legal observation of one by law, or compelled people to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience? No. Infringement to the rights of conscience and the establishment of a national religion has not occurred.

Your friend's opinion that any religion is under attack by or one has more protection from the state is his/her and those of the like mindset. Most with this mindset see some vast conspiracy to teach secularism, as a religion in public schools which is unlikely since most schools have a hard enough time just teaching the basics....ABCs & 3Rs.

Left to some we would believe the earth is flat and the sun revolves around it.
 
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#6
#6
WillisWG said:
Has Congress established a religion, or enforced the legal observation of one by law, or compelled people to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience? No. Infringement to the rights of conscience and establish a national religion has not occurred.

Your friend's opinion that any religion is under attack or one has more protection from the state is his/her and those of the like mindset. Most with this mindset see some vast conspiracy to teach seculasim in public schools which is unlikey since most schools have a hard enough time just teaching the basics....ABCs & 3Rs.

Left to some we would believe the earth is flat and the sun revolves around it.
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Islam is getting more protection than any other religion
 
#7
#7
I like the second set of observations, although the culprit for ramping up a throwaway consumer society had little to do with people "not getting" the family. Remember, Margaret Thatcher said, "There is no such thing as society, there are only individuals..." only to have an aide flag her with a cue card "AND FAMILIES! AND FAMILIES!"

Neoliberalism and other values of the dominant culture has promoted the atomisation of society, breakdown of families. It has called this state of affairs "ultimate freedom" and "maximum happiness."
 
#8
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vol_in_il said:
Islam is getting more protection than any other religion
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Guess you could make that point but I see it being equally protected not more protected, similarly to the equal protection afforded to the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, KS.
 
#9
#9
(I shouldn't type this bc I'm clueless and will likely do a Tim Taylor'ish job of relaying this) but he also stated that one of the two gentlemen who, in the 60's, came up with the ORIGIN of life theory that is (according to him) still taught today in secular schools, renounced his theory in the 90's. Citing its mathematical improbability was too great. Noted that information was placed and that the makeup of the original theory's ameoba, was WAY too complex to be by chance. Simply mathematically impossible. (I know this post is lacking the crucial info to either agree or disagree with it. I'm more hoping this rings a bell with someone and they can remind me what he was speaking of) Pardon the lack of specific info.
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#11
#11
Orangekush423 said:
2.The #1 environmental strain on our current society? Take a guess........The lack of emphasis and thus dedication to the FAMILY. That's right. 1940- Mom,Dad,son,daughter,dog= 1 house, 1/2 cars, 1 TV, 1 trip to grocery store, vet, ect.....
2011- Mommy/son/daughter + Daddy/same-son/same-daughter/= @ least 2 cars, @ least 2 homes, @ least 2 TV's, @ least 2sets of toys, 2 sets of clothes, 2 dogs, 2 EVERYTHING...... We are now on our 2nd generation that simply put, doesn't "get it". They decided in the 60's that all this stuff didn't matter, and we are dealing with the unintended consequences now and without a nation that repents and turns from its ways, its gonna get worse, not better....forever. [/i][/size]
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Here is the dirty lil secret... and some people would argue that it is a conspiracy, But the post-WWII breakdown of the family by laws that favor women have actually helped to drive the economy. How is that? Well, it has given women leverage in home purchases (homes today are larger and have more superfluous amenities), women with jobs are also able to have more buying power, and if a woman is dissatisfied with here husband's financial ability to give her those extra amenities (A BMW instead of a Camry, a 2800 sf home instead in a neighborhood near shopping centers vs an 1800 sf home anywhere else. etc.), she can divorce that man, remove his spending restraints, and force the state to take his income to make the purchases that she wants. And since most women are emotional roller coasters, they will use shopping as a way to remedy for their issues (which is evident when you realize that all of us know women that have closets half filled with items they have never worn or only worn once). All of this spending that is driven by women has not only driven the economy, but also driven credit card companies. You've helped the real estate market in that now, instead of one family under one roof, you have families divided under different roofs. Even further, it doesn't benefit to even have the institution of marriage. What they want are men to simply be sperm donors and worker drones financing the break neck spending that they emotions crave. Single parenthood is terrible for society (just look at the black community as an example), but divided homes/families is good for business/the economy.

:unsure:
 
#12
#12
Orangekush423 said:
State religion. That's the term I was looking for. Thanks sjt. Also, once brought to the forefront, this will blow the courts wide open, no?
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It does not seem so. When liberals don't like precedence... they ignore it. Atheism has been found to be a "religion" when it comes to the 1st Amendment... IIRC it was a favorable ruling to atheists. Agnosticism is likewise a religion in the same sense. Humanism also by the same logic.

The ONLY way you avoid some of these issues is to get gov't out of them. That is particularly true of education.
 
#13
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Orangekush423 said:
1.I was talking to an attorney yesterday about 1st ammendment rights, and he expressed concern as to the actual definition of "religion". We really haven't defined religion. Secular Humanism gets the protection of the state, while intelligent design is attacked. Both are similar in their nature, that they are "religiously" followed or believed. Why one and not the other?
Click to expand...

Secular Humanism is a Religion

This page examines two issues:

Secular Humanists and Humanistic courts have admitted that Humanism is a religion.

Why they now claim Humanism is not a religion, in order to avoid problems under the "Establishment Clause" of the First Amendment.
--------------------------

Secular Humanism is a religion
"for Free Exercise Clause purposes."

Secular Humanism is Not a religion
"for Establishment Clause purposes."
Click to expand...

Doesn't seem right but that is how it is these days.

More:

What is the Hegelian Dialectic?

"...the State 'has the supreme right against the individual, whose supreme duty is to be a member of the State... for the right of the world spirit is above all special privileges.'" Author/historian William Shirer, quoting Georg Hegel in his The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1959, page 144)

In 1847 the London Communist League (Karl Marx and Frederick Engels) used Hegel's theory of the dialectic to back up their economic theory of communism. Now, in the 21st century, Hegelian-Marxist thinking affects our entire social and political structure. The Hegelian dialectic is the framework for guiding our thoughts and actions into conflicts that lead us to a predetermined solution. If we do not understand how the Hegelian dialectic shapes our perceptions of the world, then we do not know how we are helping to implement the vision.

When we remain locked into dialectical thinking, we cannot see out of the box.
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#14
#14
WillisWG said:
Has Congress established a religion, or enforced the legal observation of one by law, or compelled people to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience? No. Infringement to the rights of conscience and the establishment of a national religion has not occurred.
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Unfortunately, the USC was changed to apply the USC to the states a long time ago. There were more effective, more targeted solutions available... but they chose the difficult and wide sweeping one.

Therefore, the argument against prayer in public schools was won. Before the USC applied to the states, SCOTUS would have refused to intervene.

You have provided a very narrow interpretation of the establishment clause. Congress cannot compel someone to worship nor prevent it... nor can they indoctrinate a particular view.

If you know ANYTHING whatsoever about public schools and the philosophy of "secular" academics then you cannot deny that a secular humanist view is being taught over a Christian/Muslim/Jewish/Hindu/New Age pov. I guess it is possible that you know so little about religion that you cannot recognize the problems?

The secular humanist view is imposed in science, history, literature, art, etc.

Your friend's opinion that any religion is under attack by or one has more protection from the state is his/her and those of the like mindset. Most with this mindset see some vast conspiracy to teach secularism, as a religion in public schools which is unlikely since most schools have a hard enough time just teaching the basics....ABCs & 3Rs.
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Can schools teach "values"? On what basis can they teach them? Can they say "You should not steal because it is sinful?"

Can you use God as a premise for any line of "education" in public schools? If not, what is the given premise?

Left to some we would believe the earth is flat and the sun revolves around it.
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Yes... but we are still trying to get things like a comparative teaching of origins into the public schools. The secularists won't allow it though. They have a philosophical/religious monopoly in public education and won't give it up without a fight.
 
#16
#16
WW2 is the total cause for all of this. The parents who came back from WW2 and came out of the depression wanted their children to never experience the world they grew up in so the spoiled them. That group of kids became the hippies and rebelled with "free love." Then when they hit their 30's and realized the free love thing was crap they went to the other extreme and created the Decade of Decadence known as the 80's. Greed set into society and the latch key kid was created. Reality is, this world would be better if one person stayed home and one worked but things are so out of wack now that it's not even possible for the majority of people.
 
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Ihatethebuckeyes said:
WW2 is the total cause for all of this. The parents who came back from WW2 and came out of the depression wanted their children to never experience the world they grew up in so the spoiled them. That group of kids became the hippies and rebelled with "free love." Then when they hit their 30's and realized the free love thing was crap they went to the other extreme and created the Decade of Decadence known as the 80's. Greed set into society and the latch key kid was created. Reality is, this world would be better if one person stayed home and one worked but things are so out of wack now that it's not even possible for the majority of people.
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/thread
 
#18
#18
Concerning item #2:

Moonbattery: Parents Neutered on Passport Applications

Our liberal ruling class has been institutionalizing
bizarre, child-warping mutations of the traditional
family. It shows up in little ways — like the politically
incorrect concept of children having a mother and
a father being expunged from passport applications.

"The words in the old form were 'mother' and 'father,'"
said Brenda Sprague, deputy assistant Secretary of
State for Passport Services. "They are now 'parent
one' and 'parent two.'"

A statement on the State Department website
noted: "These improvements are being made to
provide a gender neutral description of a child's
parents and in recognition of different types of
families."

Sprague helps explain:

"We find that with changes in medical science
and reproductive technology that we are
confronting situations now that we would not
have anticipated 10 or 15 years ago," she said.

Naturally militant homosexuals are delighted.

"Changing the term mother and father to the
more global term of parent allows many different
types of families to be able to go and apply for a
passport for their child without feeling like the
government doesn't recognize their family," said
Jennifer Chrisler, executive director of Family
Equality Council.

Her organization lobbied the government for several
years to remove the words from passport applications.
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172032.jpg
 
#20
#20
religion is defined as a set of beliefs. so if even if you're an athiest, you are religious. your set of beliefs are there is no God, only man.
 
#23
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joevol320 said:
religion is defined as a set of beliefs. so if even if you're an athiest, you are religious. your set of beliefs are there is no God, only man.
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This is the most childish reasoning that I've ever heard and I hear it from people all of the time. I follow no defined guidelines but the laws of the land, I hold no book sacred. In the end, I'm dead. If you want to define that as a religion in the same context as Christianity/Islam/Judaism/Buddhism/etc, fine, but it's not the same.
 
#24
#24
Regarding point one, the premise of your question is wrong. "Secular humanism" is a label for a whole host of non-beliefs. The religious right wants to pretend that there is some equivalence to religion so that they can try to argue that they deserve the same privileges that non-believers get, when in reality the point is that affirmative beliefs should not be thrust on others by the state or the majority.

Don't be fooled by it. It is a pseudo-intellectual exercise used to rally the troops as it were, against an enemy that, by definition, does not exist.

Also, to sell lots of books and get donations to quack religious rights outfits.

As to the second question, the deterioration of the family is a major problem in this country. I think everyone agrees with that.

But you have two camps. Some people think that the deterioration of the family is the cause of a lot of problems. Others agree, but also say that it is a symptom of much bigger problems. I am probably in the latter group. I think on the whole you will find that most conservatives are in the former.
 
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