A Common Sense Look At Recruiting

#1

OldVol

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#1
It's off-season, we're all hungry for football, yet there is no football to be had, so we discuss recruiting.

I'm afraid however, that we often get too cranked up with the over simplification of recruiting rankings.

For instance: Last year we were in everybody’s top 3.

This year, we're 15 (ESPN) to 24 (Scout).

But, let's look at rankings and reality.

The reality of rankings is; each school is ranked based on a total of points assigned to each individual recruit, then the team with the largest sum total of points is the, so-called, #1 team.

Is this a realistic approach? I say no.

Last year we handed out 29 scholarships and had an average star rating of 3.63. (I'll use scout's numbers for consistency)

This year, we give out 22 with a star average of 3.14.

Now, here's the fallacy of the sum total of points being used to rank a class. Last year, USC only offered 16 scholarships and ended up with enough points to be ranked 6 in the nation. Their average rating was a staggering 4.25. By all accounts, and looking from a common sense point of view, USC had a far more successful recruiting season in 05 than we did.

This year, lets look at some schools and their numbers.

Scout has USC as their #1 school, even though they gave 3 fewer ships than the #2 Florida. Their average star rating was 4.17 to Florida's 3.85.

Now, look at our numbers this year: Ranked #24, giving out 21 ships with an average rating of 3.14. Let's compare those numbers to the Ole Miss class. (This does not count the resigning of Gerald Williams who was the 05 #7 overall LB 4* player)

Ole Miss gave out 29 scholarships and with giving out that many, they only ended up ranked 15. Their average star rating was 3.21.

When you add in William, plus the return of Mapu, our class is dead even or ahead of Ole Miss.

Now, here's the strange thing. Ole Miss is raking in the kudos and our negative fans are acting like this is a horrible class.

With the 85 total scholarship limit, you cannot sign 29 or 30 kids every year. When you do, you end up having a year at some point where you can only take 15 or so. See USC in 05.

With attrition, you can only average 21.25 scholarships per year.

Last year, Bama gave out 30 scholarships to achieve a #16 ranking, but their star average was only 2.83.

There's more, far more to look at when judging the true worth of a class than where they end up ranked with Scout or Rivals or Lemming.

I'll take this class with pride.

I'm not trying to belittle Ole Miss or Bama's 05 classes, although the Bama class of 05 was not impressive at all when you look at quality as opposed to quality.

Ole Miss just got a very good class. But there were times last year when Mr. Orgeron looked very lost on the sidelines. We'll see in a few years if this class can be coached up to SEC standards. The same will hold for our 05 class. Where we have the advantage is, we have a host of great talent in house just waiting to be coached up.

I believe we return to the very forefront of the SEC race this year.

 
#2
#2
Good post OV. As I said in another thread, IMO Ole Miss recruiting will take a hit next year when Miss.St. has all their scholarships restored (meaning that they can sign kids for the '07/'08 season based on 85 schollys). I also think we have a good class. I was hoping for some more "superstar" playmakers, but I think we got what we need for now. Even looking at the avg. star rating IMO is a little deceptive because we signed two kickers this year. Also, I think we got some very underrated talent with Stephens, Raines and D. Davis. There may be other guys who were underrated by the recruiting services but those three stand out in my mind.
 
#3
#3
(VolunteerHillbilly @ Feb 2 said:
Even looking at the avg. star rating IMO is a little deceptive because we signed two kickers this year.

That is true.

My post was meant to enlighten some who seem to put so much emphasis on rankings. If you really put stock in rankings, then look at the star average as opposed to the total points. A school that hands out 21 ships to athletes who a) will qualify B) are high character c) and highly regarded (either by star rating, or a better indicator - who else wanted them) then you have a far better class than someone who gave out 30, knowing at least 9 of them will have to fall by the wayside for one or the other reasons I stated.

Some folks claim to be highly educated here. You'd think they could see this.
 
#4
#4
Good post Oldvol.

I also think that there are some intangibles in this class that we seem to have been missing for a few years.

Sounds like some strong bonds already being formed within the class based on what I heard McClendon and Pope talk about. Sounded good.

Definitely heard some leadership and fire out of McClendon and Pope. We are in desperate need of that within the team.

Heck, Lindsey and Smith cried when they signed their LOI.

How's that for loyalty to Big Orange?

I'd be happy to hear a player speak along the lines of Al Wilson:

"I'd do ANYTHING to win a football game."
 
#5
#5
I tend to break down the quality of a recruit in a fairly simplistic way.
When they touch that sign that says "I Will Give My All For Tennesse Today!", do they mean it? If so, welcome to the University of Tennessee young man. I swear you're gonna love it here...

The coaches won't ask a kid to take that oath if they don't think he's got the stuff.

Spring Practice starts in exactly four weeks.
 
#6
#6
I agree with both of you, but i will say this about the recruiting rankings, they do create perception. they may not create reality, like i said, i agree with you both, but you can't ignore the fact that as more and more of a spotlight is placed on recruiting, the recruits and the recruiting rankings, a perception is created about a program and its ability to attract top tier talent. word travels fast, and if you are a top flight recruit, you want to be surrounded by the best....jmo, and why i can understand why folks get so worked up about these things.


And as we all know, perception is reality.

Having said all that, if in two years we win the SEC, no one will care that we had a #25 class in the country or #7 class in the SEC....so recruiting rankings... :boredom:
 
#7
#7
(OldVol @ Feb 2 said:
a better indicator - who else wanted them.

I was just looking at that. This is not a complete list. Plenty of the other signees got offers from solid football schools but chose UT. Just pointing out that we still pulled some talent the "heavyweights" wanted.

1. Brent Vinson also offered by UF, UGA, VaTech
2. Victor Thomas also offered by UF, LSU
3. Cody Pope also offered by Cal, USC
4. Ramone Johnson also offered by PennSt
5. Chase Nelson also offered by Oklahoma
6. Jacques McClendon also offered by Bama, Auburn, LSU, Notre Dame
 
#8
#8
i think if there were an indicator, that would be the one i would care about most....
 
#9
#9
A few more numbers to digest.

Based purely on star ranking, this is how the classes rank, 1 through 25. (per scout)

USC 4.17
Florida 3.85
Texas 3.72
Michigan 3.68
Georgia 3.63
Notre Dame 3.61
Ohio State 3.6
Penn State 3.54
Miami (Fl) 3.41
Auburn 3.4
LSU 3.39
Oklahoma 3.36
Pittsburgh 3.32
Arizona 3.32
Alabama 3.3
Nebraska 3.27
California 3.25
Mississippi 3.21
Clemson 3.2
Florida State 3.2
UCLA 3.18
Oklahoma State 3.14
Tennessee 3.14
Texas A&M 3.05
Arizona State 2.92
 
#10
#10
Good point on creating perception... in that same realm, most Vols say they would RATHER be percieved as underdogs. I don't like high national expectations for our team unless they can fulfill that.

LadVolFan and O+W=H also hit on a point of the intangibles of a class comming together and being willing to play for TN /w pride. This is something I saw about last year's class that we only got minor glimpses of b/c so many of them were redshirted/injured. You will see these character traits comming out in these guys over the next year.
 
#11
#11
Another thing to consider when placing stock in the rankings: Scout has 12 analysts working for them. That means 12 men to analyze, see, and report on some 3000 kids who will sign Division I letters each year.

Now, when you put in the other divisions that these services work for, you're looking at 12 men completing a data base of information on approximately 10,000 rated players, not to mention the players who are culled, and you've got a daunting task in anyone's book.

As someone who used to volunteer my services to the previous UT coaching staff, by traveling around and offering opinions on various HS kids, I know there are a lot more things that go into a staff choosing a player than just media rankings. While the services weren't that big of a deal prior to 93, the media reports on players were used as a basic starting point for staffs to begin looking at a player.

The scouting services provide a service, but basically, they do for money what the papers used to do for free, which is inform the public and coaches which players are the hottest ticket in each respective community.

From there, the people who have the ability to analyze talent go to work either in person attending games, or by obtaining film on players.

No staff goes after a kid based purely on what the scouting services provide.
 
#12
#12
(rwemyss @ Feb 2 said:
Good point on creating perception... in that same realm, most Vols say they would RATHER be percieved as underdogs. I don't like high national expectations for our team unless they can fulfill that.

LadVolFan and O+W=H also hit on a point of the intangibles of a class comming together and being willing to play for TN /w pride. This is something I saw about last year's class that we only got minor glimpses of b/c so many of them were redshirted/injured. You will see these character traits comming out in these guys over the next year.

This is why I'm so high on Jon Crompton.

This kid has dreamed of running through the T for years. That's special when you consider that he's from NC. I have nothing against Erik, but I would be glad to see Jon win the starting job.

This kid bleeds Orange and has for years.

He's going to be a great UT QB I believe.
 
#13
#13
(OldVol @ Feb 2 said:
It's off-season, we're all hungry for football, yet there is no football to be had, so we discuss recruiting.


Now, here's the strange thing. Ole Miss is raking in the kudos and our negative fans are acting like this is a horrible class.


I agree with everything you wrote with the exception of the above sentence because it is a question of what you are used to. I do agree that any formula weighting star numbers versus raw numbers of recruits is totally subjective, no matter which weight the bias has (be it higher team rank for having a higher average per recruit ranking, or higher team rank based on the number of scholarhips at a certain level).

The reason that people here think the sky is falling is simply because Tennessee is usually ranked higher, regardless of the system used. Coming on the heels of a very disappointing season, it just adds to the Chicken Little refrain. I do think Tennessee will be right there next year and it looks like it will be the same dance between UT, Florida, and Georgia in the SEC East, with LSU, Auburn, And Alabama shaking things out in the West.

Sure, an MSU or even a South Carolina can sneak into the mix, but top to bottom those have been and should continue to be the dominant programs.

I have no problem with folks expressing concern about the overall direction of the team. I would be unhappy if I were a UT fan, too. But I definitely agree with you Oldvol that the lower recruiting rank is not the end of the world and neither is last year's off season, at least not yet.

Keep an eye on it and complain so as to keep the program and the coaches alert and running on all cylinders? Sure.

Freak out, blow off football tix for next year and sign up for a season pass to the UT synchronized swim team? Nope.



 
#14
#14
(OldVol @ Feb 2 said:
This is why I'm so high on Jon Crompton.

This kid has dreamed of running through the T for years. That's special when you consider that he's from NC. I have nothing against Erik, but I would be glad to see Jon win the starting job.

This kid bleeds Orange and has for years.

He's going to be a great UT QB I believe.

I also think he had an impact on some kids coming to UT last season through his recruiting efforts. That is why I was surprised to see someone in another post make a neg. comment on locking up some great talent early. Don't we want to have these guys talking up UT at their awards banquets, all-star games, etc.??
 
#15
#15
When you are winning football games, nobody cares if you are doing it with 5*s or 2*s as long as you are doing it.
 
#16
#16
(lawgator1 @ Feb 2 said:
I agree with everything you wrote with the exception of the above sentence because it is a question of what you are used to. I do agree that any formula weighting star numbers versus raw numbers of recruits is totally subjective, no matter which weight the bias has (be it higher team rank for having a higher average per recruit ranking, or higher team rank based on the number of scholarhips at a certain level).

The reason that people here think the sky is falling is simply because Tennessee is usually ranked higher, regardless of the system used. Coming on the heels of a very disappointing season, it just adds to the Chicken Little refrain. I do think Tennessee will be right there next year and it looks like it will be the same dance between UT, Florida, and Georgia in the SEC East, with LSU, Auburn, And Alabama shaking things out in the West.

Sure, an MSU or even a South Carolina can sneak into the mix, but top to bottom those have been and should continue to be the dominant programs.

I have no problem with folks expressing concern about the overall direction of the team. I would be unhappy if I were a UT fan, too. But I definitely agree with you Oldvol that the lower recruiting rank is not the end of the world and neither is last year's off season, at least not yet.

Keep an eye on it and complain so as to keep the program and the coaches alert and running on all cylinders? Sure.

Freak out, blow off football tix for next year and sign up for a season pass to the UT synchronized swim team? Nope.

Exactly,

Newton's law of relativity is kicking in here.

Ole Miss did great in RELATION to their normal recruits.

We did poorly in RELATION to our normal recruits. But, since we're both in the top25, we both actually did splendidly.

Recruits looked at the 05 class, most of whom redshirted, and know that playing time on the 06 Vol squad will be scarcer than hen's teeth. (do hens actually have teeth?)

All in all, we met needs. After landing the top class in the nation (relatively speaking) in 05, it was not realistic to expect we'd do that again.

When you consider that it's been about 50 years since we had back to back losing seasons I think I'll take your advice on the tickets.
 
#17
#17
(lawgator1 @ Feb 2 said:
I agree with everything you wrote with the exception of the above sentence because it is a question of what you are used to. I do agree that any formula weighting star numbers versus raw numbers of recruits is totally subjective, no matter which weight the bias has (be it higher team rank for having a higher average per recruit ranking, or higher team rank based on the number of scholarhips at a certain level).

The reason that people here think the sky is falling is simply because Tennessee is usually ranked higher, regardless of the system used. Coming on the heels of a very disappointing season, it just adds to the Chicken Little refrain. I do think Tennessee will be right there next year and it looks like it will be the same dance between UT, Florida, and Georgia in the SEC East, with LSU, Auburn, And Alabama shaking things out in the West.

Sure, an MSU or even a South Carolina can sneak into the mix, but top to bottom those have been and should continue to be the dominant programs.

I have no problem with folks expressing concern about the overall direction of the team. I would be unhappy if I were a UT fan, too. But I definitely agree with you Oldvol that the lower recruiting rank is not the end of the world and neither is last year's off season, at least not yet.

Keep an eye on it and complain so as to keep the program and the coaches alert and running on all cylinders? Sure.

Freak out, blow off football tix for next year and sign up for a season pass to the UT synchronized swim team? Nope.
And this is all very easy to say when you have a top 3 class, right? i hear what your saying.....just giving you a hard time....i hope all your recruits are busts. Have a nice day. :biggrin2:
 
#18
#18
Rankings are given on the videos and some stats. If a player misses a game due to injuries or if he misses his junior season, he loses "stock". You could almost say it's a popularity contest for those with perfect attendance. It's not a distributive way of analyzing talent. If you were watching the sites, you'd notice some players were bumped up or down based on 'new' info. Some 2-star players are actually 5-star talent but just don't have the time in service.

Again all of this doesn't matter. We can have a straight 5-star recruiting class but if the coaches do not develop them and provide a higher standard learning environment, they might as well be 1-star players.
 
#19
#19
(CSpindizzy @ Feb 2 said:
Rankings are given on the videos and some stats. If a player misses a game due to injuries or if he misses his junior season, he loses "stock". You could almost say it's a popularity contest for those with perfect attendance. It's not a distributive way of analyzing talent. If you were watching the sites, you'd notice some players were bumped up or down based on 'new' info. Some 2-star players are actually 5-star talent but just don't have the time in service.

Again all of this doesn't matter. We can have a straight 5-star recruiting class but if the coaches do not develop them and provide a higher standard learning environment, they might as well be 1-star players.

There are some factors that can be settled with a little investigation.

You get confirmed height, weight, reach, 40 times, vertical etc., and with these factors you have a good idea as to how coachable a kid is.

As I said, the scouting services are just a starting point in evaluating a recruit.

The rest depends on a number of variables; how well does this 18 year old adjust to being away from home, mom and dad, authority for the first time; will they get into trouble; will they work hard, attend class, meetings and be good practice players; will the coaches do their job in getting the most of the talent.

 
#20
#20
I love the ones who pick the farthest university from home to get away from the parents or some stalking ex-girlfriend.
 
#21
#21
:lolabove: :lolabove: :lolabove:

To all the posts above.......


So rankings dont mean anything? Stars dont mean anything?

Then how do you rank these kids???? How then do you determine which players are better?????

The coaching staff I know evaluates these kids..... they know which players they want. Dont you think they want the best player in the country at each position on the field. When they cant get the number 1 player they move down the list.

ex they wanted Brandon Warren but they could not get him so they moved down the list.

ex. they wanted broehm but he went to louisville so they took Ainge and Schaffer.

Rankings arent everything but you know good and well that fulmer would have loved to have a top 5 recruiting class!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
#22
#22
we all would, and Fulmer of all yrs this is the yr he would have loved a top 5 class, he knows the heat is on and I think he is as passionate about getting it fixed as any of us are, can he? time will tell
 
#23
#23
(orange+white=heaven @ Feb 2 said:
I tend to break down the quality of a recruit in a fairly simplistic way.
When they touch that sign that says "I Will Give My All For Tennesse Today!", do they mean it? If so, welcome to the University of Tennessee young man. I swear you're gonna love it here...

Of course, it also helps if the guy has the physical skills to run down a locomotive, wrestle it to the ground, and bench press it 24 times :rolleyes:

The star ranking is useful as a broad, imprecise indicator to comparing the raw talent coming into a program but not as useful, in my opinion, as a predictor of the kind of football team you are going to have down the road. Kids develope past their rating or fail to live up to it; they redshirt and transfer and fail to qualify and leave early for the NFL; they play with heart and chemistry that is unable to be objectively measured or they don't.

All in all, it looks to me like we have recruited a class full of solid SEC talent with a few less of the dynamic playmakers we are used to on the hill. Last year, we got a class full of solid SEC talent with a few more of those dynamic playmakers. In the coming years we will be putting as good or better talent on the field as anyone else in the conference, which usually means anyone else in the country. We just need to translate that into wins.
 
#24
#24
(patrick @ Feb 2 said:
:lolabove: :lolabove: :lolabove:

To all the posts above.......
So rankings dont mean anything? Stars dont mean anything?


How did you read the above posts and reach that conclusion?

I looked back and didn't see where anyone really indicated that rankings mean nothing.
 
#25
#25


I think the coaching staff has their list and it probably doesn't agree 100% with the recruiting services. A good example is the difference between the ESPN ranking and the others. Of course it does worry me when ESPN says something good about Tennessee.
 

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