A different take on a key problem in Greece

#1
lawgator1

lawgator1

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#1
Greece faces a critical week in its debt crisis - Jun. 27, 2011



These protesters tend to blame the rich for the country's woes, since rampant tax evasion has been a major contributor to the Greek tragedy. Tax dodgers have undermined public financing in a country that is dependent upon socialist supports such as the publicly funded pension system.


Reining in tax dodgers is at the top of the list of the new reforms.









Sound familiar?
 
#2
#2
no. comparing a situation where the rich pay almost zero income taxes because they literally pay off the politicians to a country where the rich pay 40% of their income in taxes is ridiculous.
 
#3
#3
droski said:
no. comparing a situation where the rich pay almost zero income taxes because they literally pay off the politicians to a country where the rich pay 40% of their income in taxes is ridiculous.
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You think the wealthiest in this country pay 40 % of their income in taxes? You are smoking crack.

Besides which, I was thinking more along the lines of GE.
 
#4
#4
you keep arguing there are all these tax loopholes the rich exploit yet you've never listed any of them. talking out of your arse again?
 
#5
#5
droski said:
you keep arguing there are all these tax loopholes the rich exploit yet you've never listed any of them. talking out of your arse again?
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What about the one where you can buy a large size vehicle, like a big truck (used to be a SUV), and then write it off, effectively getting a tax break and a car?

Of course, Section 179 changed recently, but we'll see what is out there next.

And, before you say "But that was for businesses...," you know as well as any that individuals incorporate themselves for personal liability reasons. Especially doctors, lawyers, comedians, actors, etc.
 
#6
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fl0at said:
What about the one where you can buy a large size vehicle, like a big truck (used to be a SUV), and then write it off, effectively getting a tax break and a car?

Of course, Section 179 changed recently, but we'll see what is out there next.

And, before you say "But that was for businesses...," you know as well as any that individuals incorporate themselves for personal liability reasons. Especially doctors, lawyers, comedians, actors, etc.
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if you can't prove it's for your business i assure you the IRS won't look fondly on you writing it off. and writing off one car hardly turns your tax rate to zero if you are making over a mil a year.
 
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droski said:
if you can't prove it's for your business i assure you the IRS won't look fondly on you writing it off. and writing off one car hardly turns your tax rate to zero if you are making over a mil a year.
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We aren't saying zero, we are saying less than 40%. Don't blanket the statement that the wealthy are all paying 40% because it states that they must. They aren't.

They might be paying 28%, 33%, etc, but they aren't all just paying 40%.

Although, I've watched extreme couponing... so, if someone can buy $1200 worth of groceries, and have the store pay them, who knows what creative accounting can do.

And have you sat in on an audit for the top 1%? Yea... me either. I doubt they'll have much trouble "proving" that automobile for business purposes.
 
#8
#8
Yeah the tax evasion needs to be fixed, the fact that government employees make 3 times the wage of the average citizen is a problem, and the fact that people are allowed to retire on the government's dime at age 50 is a problem. Greece has completely screwed themselves.
 
#9
#9
fl0at said:
We aren't saying zero, we are saying less than 40%. Don't blanket the statement that the wealthy are all paying 40% because it states that they must. They aren't.

They might be paying 28%, 33%, etc, but they aren't all just paying 40%.

Although, I've watched extreme couponing... so, if someone can buy $1200 worth of groceries, and have the store pay them, who knows what creative accounting can do.

And have you sat in on an audit for the top 1%? Yea... me either. I doubt they'll have much trouble "proving" that automobile for business purposes.
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40% of what is the question? every wealthly client i have is in the maximum tax bracket.

and yes i ahve sat in on multiple audits of the top 1%. real estate is the only real way in this country to avoid taxes. and i'd have no problem with getting rid of 1031 exchanges and depreciation for non residential properties.
 
#10
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droski said:
40% of what is the question? every wealthly client i have is in the maximum tax bracket.

and yes i ahve sat in on multiple audits of the top 1%. real estate is the only real way in this country to avoid taxes. and i'd have no problem with getting rid of 1031 exchanges and depreciation for non residential properties.
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How'd that audit go, if you aren't bound by any NDs?

40% is the question. How many of your clients pay "what * .40," as the "what" is currently defined?
 
#11
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fl0at said:
How'd that audit go, if you aren't bound by any NDs?

40% is the question. How many of your clients pay "what * .40," as the "what" is currently defined?
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the irs always gets its pint of blood, though if you are massively rich and doing everything by the book they still many times want to take a look.

that's the point. the what isn't defined. all of them pay 40% of their earned income. some things decrease that income. from my chair they are hardly getting off scott free and to compare it to greece is absurd. particurally if you look at who pays the majority of taxes in THIS country.
 
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droski said:
the irs always gets its pint of blood, though if you are massively rich and doing everything by the book they still many times want to take a look.

that's the point. the what isn't defined. all of them pay 40% of their earned income. some things decrease that income. from my chair they are hardly getting off scott free and to compare it to greece is absurd. particurally if you look at who pays the majority of taxes in THIS country.
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Oh, I wouldn't compare it to Greece at all. I just wouldn't put a halo on our top bracket, either.

Ok, semantics. 40% of earned income, after deductions, is not 40% of "earned income." But yes, after some hand waiving, they all pay 40%.
 
#14
#14
KiffinKiller said:
This country's tax system is maddening.
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I agree.

But let's be real -- the wealthiest, particularly those tied to big business -- can afford to have a voice and indeed have a voice in the Congress. How do you think GE manages to pay no tax? They have carefully constructed the code and their business model to yield as little taxation as possible.

That's why I laugh when I hear GOP whining that the corporate tax rate is too high. You know what? It might be.

If anyone actually paid it.
 
#15
#15
GE wouldn't be in business if obama didn't hand them hundreds of billions. and that's why they pay no taxes. ever heard of tax loss carryforwards?
 
#17
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lawgator1 said:
I agree.

But let's be real -- the wealthiest, particularly those tied to big business -- can afford to have a voice and indeed have a voice in the Congress. How do you think GE manages to pay no tax? They have carefully constructed the code and their business model to yield as little taxation as possible.

That's why I laugh when I hear GOP whining that the corporate tax rate is too high. You know what? It might be.

If anyone actually paid it.
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This is the problem. In your scenario the rich established corporation can afford a voice and can skirt taxes. What this means is GE has a huge advantage over every potential new-coming competitor.

When I complain that the corporate income tax is high, I'm not saying GE is paying too much, I'm saying it's a barrier to entry prohibiting new blood. It protects GE's market share. If an entrepreneur can incorporate elsewhere then he will, and that's hurting the US economy. In the Philippines you don't pay corporate income tax for the first 5 years of existence (maybe it's 8 years). Talk about stimulus!
 
#18
#18
I think most here can agree that large corporations in the US in many specific examples are able to flex muscle in DC in a way that's usually borderline unethical and typically flat out is a ****ty thing to do.
 
#19
#19
lawgator1 said:
I agree.

But let's be real -- the wealthiest, particularly those tied to big business -- can afford to have a voice and indeed have a voice in the Congress. How do you think GE manages to pay no tax? They have carefully constructed the code and their business model to yield as little taxation as possible.

That's why I laugh when I hear GOP whining that the corporate tax rate is too high. You know what? It might be.

If anyone actually paid it.
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If you want to close a tax loop hole how about we start with not letting people get a bigger income tax refund than what they paid in. If a guy paid $5K in income tax and get a refund check of $7K, something is wrong. He shouldn't be able to get more than $5K back from the Treasury.
 
#21
#21
28% of a million in earned and adjusted income is still a helluva lot more than 15% of 50k or 10% of 20k.

LG continues to assert that the "rich" don't pay enough, but as droski pointed out earlier, he has yet to show any evidence of Greek-style loopholes where the "rich" pay zero income tax.
 
#23
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KiffinKiller said:
When everyone pays income tax then maybe LG can come argue. Until then it makes no sense.
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that's why broadening the base by reducing rates and eliminating some of the exemptions and credits has appeal.

It's ridiculous that, due to the EITC, a working person who earns about 35k a year and has a couple of kids will get back in the form of a credit over twice what he or she actually paid in, including FICA and SS.
 
#24
#24
yeah I think the primary R position on corporate taxes is reducing them and reducing loopholes to broaden and equalize the tax base at a lower rate structure.
 
#25
#25
MG1968 said:
that's why broadening the base by reducing rates and eliminating some of the exemptions and credits has appeal.
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It makes too much sense. Tax reform should be a part of the current negotiations.
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