Academic Issues Explained

[ORNGFACTOR]

Mods please merge if this is in another thread.

I found this posted on another site and really felt that this was the best explanation of the "academic" issues that you hear about in this coaching / recruiting search.

These issues were not exsistent during most of Fulmer's term. These issues came about during Hamilton's tenure as AD and it is Hart who is fighting an up hill battle with the Chancelor Cheek and Provost Susan Martin.

I know that a lot of people are upset at Hart but Hart is doing his very best to win these battles. He really needs our support. These are real issues that potential coaches consider because you cant be successful if you cant get the recuit enrolled let alone maintain academic eligibility.

This post is not my comments and I do not take any credit for it but again, I felt they were pretty spot on. Skeeter can probably shed some more light if anything seems inaccurate:




Academic concerns, here they are, and please don't say it's NOT an issue. It's a HUGE issue. It's been spelled out on here and elsewhere in much more detail. I'll keep it as short as possible. Some of this post is over a month old, and most responses were "these are not real issues, etc."

I don't know how folks do not get this, but again, here it is:


It revolves around 1) the control of the Thornton Center; 2) Admission Standards; and 3) The available degree programs/curriculum and the commitment from Academia to support help FB players with legit tutoring, close communication with the coaching staff and VFL coordinator, etc.


Unfortunately, while concessions have been made, control of the Thornton Center looks like it will remain with Academia. That WAS NOT why it was built, and as it stands now (since 2003, really), FB players ARE NOT supported with respect to getting legitimate tutor help, professor help, etc. Rather, it's the polar opposite, as in professors will go out of their way to make it as hard as possible on students who play FB for UT.

It's a culture that has evolved over a 10-year period, and when the AD let go of control w/respect to that Center, it really lost it's luster w/respect to being a recruiting advantage. It actually has turned into a major recruiting disadvantage. I'm not defending Dooley or even Kiffin, but NO coach could succeed at UT if things remain like they have been for a decade. It leads to FB players overly worried about being able to stay in school, which hurts their production in every phase of their lives.

As Brent (Hubbs) or Doug (Matthews) has stated, NOT ONE COACH is allowed to call a professor just to ASK how a player is doing in class, who might need legit help, etc. Again, while it sounds like Cheek has gotten some of the message, you still have Miller, Andrews, and maybe a dozen or so more who are not leaving UT (at least not right now), and as long as that's the case, I don't see how a coach, who sees and understands the academic hurdles UT has put in place to make sure the FB program suffers and ultimately fails, would agree to come to UT. Has nothing to do with money at all. It is about control, but not anything that's outlandish.

Just a level playing field...as even as say, Vanderbilt. Ironic that James Franklin has gotten major concessions in this same type of area from Vandy, of all places, allowing them to succeed...while UT has gone in the absolute opposite direction...ensuring FB can't succeed. Such a cluster F***. I really hoped this would all be fixed. Maybe Brent knows more on the issue, but fwiw, it's my impression that this internal struggle goes on and that it is a big enough issue to cause ANY SMART, GOOD COACH to say "No". And that is very sad.

P.S. This has nothing to do with making excuses for Fulmer or any other coach. It started while he was coach, but has become much, much worse since he left. I don't attribute Fulmer's demise to this problem at all, but he could see it evolving into a potential huge problem, as he did see some 15+ degree programs eliminated or scheduled for elimination that were used mostly by FB players and other athletes. Franklin got 6 programs STARTED at Vandy for Football players in just the past 18 months.

 

[ItStartedatHessHall]

Most of the "info" presented here is garbage and there are no facts backed up here. Coaches aren't allowed to call professors at most schools because it is a MAJOR compliance no-no. That's the entire point of each team having an academic advisor/counselor who contacts professors & reports grades to the coaches. Coaches calling professors results in pressure being put on professors to give away grades, which is a major problem if/when the NCAA comes calling.

As for there not being any "easy" majors or enough "easy" classes, that's a widespread problem at many universities. Some schools still have some BS majors, but many are running into the same problems that UT has been facing.

 

[CagleMtnVol]

This goes along with what some of the beat writers have been saying on twitter in regards to academics/Cheek being one of the hurdles in this search, not Dave Hart.

 

[govols/cc]

If I'm not mistaken when Spurrier took the USCjr job lowering academic standards was one stipulation. They were lowered even more to admit Clowney who apparently has a "learning disability". He had a tutor present when he took the SAT. I think it was an issue at Clemson as well that got addressed. If we wanna compete we need to set reasonable standards to do so because we are not in the Ivy League.

 

[vols-1]

Most of the "info" presented here is garbage and there are no facts backed up here. Coaches aren't allowed to call professors at most schools because it is a MAJOR compliance no-no. That's the entire point of each team having an academic advisor/counselor who contacts professors & reports grades to the coaches. Coaches calling professors results in pressure being put on professors to give away grades,I which is a major problem if/when the NCAA comes calling.

As for there not being any "easy" majors or enough "easy" classes, that's a widespread problem at many universities. Some schools still have some BS majors, but many are running into the same problems that UT has been facing.

I bet Nick Saban knows what the hell is going on at Bama.

 

[Roustabout]

Well whey the hey can't the local media dig into a freakin story. What do they do anyway?

 

[ORNGFACTOR]

I bet Nick Saban knows what the hell is going on at Bama.

Exactly. To me, the coaches involvement is critical and this is an example of "good" control.

It doesn't matter what top hire home run splash of a coach is hired until these issues get resolved...IMO

 

[ItStartedatHessHall]

I bet Nick Saban knows what the hell is going on at Bama.

Every single coach in the country should, but not because he's calling teachers. That is the entire point of academic support units. They provide student-athletes with the tools needed to succeed while keeping coaches informed on academic progress.

Most academic support units provide a weekly grade report to their coaches.

 

[ORNGFACTOR]

Well whey the hey can't the local media dig into a freakin story. What do they do anyway?

If there was ever a home run article for John Adams, well, here is one served on a silver platter for the KNS.

This is a deeper issue and I hope that no one settles for superficial answers.

 

[DC Vol]

Today I learned that UT is academically and institutionally tougher on student athletes than Notre Dame, UCLA, Stanford, Michigan, Ohio State, etc.

Here's the pickle. It's probably gotten harder for UT since the early 90s because you can't get a kid in here that gets a gimme degree and he actually has to go to class.

But don't try to tell me that UT is tougher to recruit to than BFE Indiana to a Catholic school with incredibly rigid standards for athletes.

 

[ORNGFACTOR]

Every single coach in the country should, but not because he's calling teachers. That is the entire point of academic support units. They provide student-athletes with the tools needed to succeed while keeping coaches informed on academic progress.

Most academic support units provide a weekly grade report to their coaches.

The university is not giving that much support to the football program in that regard either.

Those facilities are for the student athletes including football players.

 

[ORNGFACTOR]

I can guarantee these issues would scare off a Gruden type hire?

 

[GatorBill]

My kid is an athlete at UT. The Thornton Center, and the academic help that comes with it, is there for every athlete. But if you dont USE IT, you get no benefit from it.

The technology that exists today is incredible. Any student can keep up with where they stand in a class. If they need help, they know it early on. All they have to do is go get the help.

Coaches get reports on their athletes progress, and if the athlete needs help, they are required to get help to participate in practice.

They are required to be at every class, and to sit in the first 2 rows. But no one can make them stay awake during class, and no one can make them study.

The scholarship football players at UT have a combined gpa of 1.94?? something like that? They need to get their asses into tutoring and get something done about THAT. And then maybe Cheek with get off their cheeks.

There is not much difference between one school, or one conference and another. Academically, they all have to answer to the NCAA.

(my kid has 2 practices a day, year round, is dead ass tired at the end of the day, is Pre-Vet and 3.75+gpa.)

Personal responsibilty. You might be there to play football, but you have to take care of your business to get that opportunity.

 

[DC Vol]

I can guarantee these issues would scare off a Gruden type hire?

Well, can you?

 

[ORNGFACTOR]

Well, can you?

Can I blame him for not coming here? Of course not.

While I don't disagree that the athletes need to get their but in class and that this issue is not all one sided, there are concessions that can and should be made to allow more coach interaction with professors and athletes. The coaches are essentially like fathers to those young kids and they need a father to help them navigate through college.

The VFL program also assists with this but as a father I would be very supportive of that kind of interaction. As a former college student and athlete, I did not have it all figured out and many times needed the help of a coach or professor.

 

[blackmon]

My kid is an athlete at UT. The Thornton Center, and the academic help that comes with it, is there for every athlete. But if you dont USE IT, you get no benefit from it.

The technology that exists today is incredible. Any student can keep up with where they stand in a class. If they need help, they know it early on. All they have to do is go get the help.

Coaches get reports on their athletes progress, and if the athlete needs help, they are required to get help to participate in practice.

They are required to be at every class, and to sit in the first 2 rows. But no one can make them stay awake during class, and no one can make them study.

The scholarship football players at UT have a combined gpa of 1.94?? something like that? They need to get their asses into tutoring and get something done about THAT. And then maybe Cheek with get off their cheeks.

There is not much difference between one school, or one conference and another. Academically, they all have to answer to the NCAA.

(my kid has 2 practices a day, year round, is dead ass tired at the end of the day, is Pre-Vet and 3.75+gpa.)

Personal responsibilty. You might be there to play football, but you have to take care of your business to get that opportunity.

I am not a professor at UTK, but I currently teach at the college level, and interact regularly with athletes.

It is a ridiculously nonsensical statement to claim professors are uniformly hostile to athletes. Some are, of course, and some are very supportive. I am one of the very supportive--even though I am not in the SEC!!

Professors, for the most part, want students to learn. Any student who comes to class, watches movies, listens to music, or sleeps will not find much support from the professor.

Yes, it happens. A lot. Happened twice in my class at a pretty well-known named college but not from athletes. I shut it down immediately, both times.

Many students come to class today with a sense of entitlement and an expectation that the professor is a video to be ignored, talked over, etc....

Many students also come to learn. Unfortunately, there are some fairly rigid and very complex rules regarding benefits that are offered to athletes in terms of academic support. It requires a ridiculous amount of knowledge to stay clear of violations... and most of us don't have the time or the knowledge to do this without outside help.

Very, very few of these students will play beyond their college years--so few that you could almost say statistically NONE OF THEM will go professional. Very few will have any resources beyond the degree they may or may not acquire in school. Academics, not sports, must be the priority.

I applaud parents like GatorBill. I wish there were more of them..... Man, did I just give some man-love to a Gator? TN indeed has fallen way way down! ;-)

 

[ORNGFACTOR]

This posted from another thread....Recruiting forum II..Skeeter works in the AD.

Go read his posts from 1 to 4 pm today. He sheds a lot of light on the academic issues.

Folks, tryin to tell ya that we need some in house cleaning before we get that home run type hire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OCIVol
Hart is more interested in getting Cheek and Martin fired than hiring a football coach. Can't say I blame him. I think he involved Cheek because he knew that would scare off Strong, and the boosters would really turn up the heat on Cheek. JMO.

Skeeters reply:
I would be willing to bet we could offer Louisville's ad the position here and at least double his salary and he would say no thanks. Cheek promised Hart before he took this job he would do what was needed to bridge the gap between academics and athletics and he has not. Hart has a buyout in his contract and if he decides to walk, we'll have to pay him because of Cheek. The boosters are putting extreme pressure on Cheek right now, they want a UT athlete to be able to take the same classes athletes can take at Bama, LSU ect. This isn't Harvard.

 

[ORNGFACTOR]

Blackmon, really? Your a professor and contradicted yourself? Thanks for not only proving my point but for completely making your argument invalid.

"It is a ridiculously nonsensical statement to claim professors are uniformly hostile to athletes. Some are, of course, and some are very supportive. I am one of the very supportive--even though I am not in the SEC!! "

 

[checkerboard03]

Blackmon, really? Your a professor and contradicted yourself? Thanks for not only proving my point but for completely making your argument invalid.

"It is a ridiculously nonsensical statement to claim professors are uniformly hostile to athletes. Some are, of course, and some are very supportive. I am one of the very supportive--even though I am not in the SEC!! "

There's nothing in this statement that contradicts itself.

As a larger point, I work at UTK and you're crazy if you think all the professors dislike football, or try to penalize football players. In fact, some of them are rabid fans with season tickets. This next point is just a feeling, so take it for what it's worth, but I'd say the administrative part of UTK is much more anti-football than the average faculty member.

 

[10NCVol88]

As another poster has noted the Thorton Center is not the problem at all. I used to work there. They offer tutoring in many subjects and have a writing and math lab. These are for all athletes. Anybody can come in. I saw more basketball players tsking advantage than football. The resources are there. People have to use them.

 

[TreeGreen]

GatorBill hit the nail on the head. The problem, typically, has very little to do with the faculty themselves and everything to do with the effort put forth by the student athletes. I'm amazed at the number who will show up to class and then put forth no more effort than that, and then freak out at the end of the semester when they realize their inability to crack open the book and study for exams or spend a little time actually writing their short papers could potentially keep them off the field/court.

At this point there is very little the faculty can do because we cannot ethically offer them preferential treatment without opening it up to the rest of the class. I see us whining a lot about academic standards here, but UT athletes aren't exactly being forced into taking engineering or chemistry majors. There are plenty of majors on campus where a modicum of care and effort would allow them to graduate with at least a C average.

 

[lawvol - Gate 21]

My kid is an athlete at UT. The Thornton Center, and the academic help that comes with it, is there for every athlete. But if you dont USE IT, you get no benefit from it.

The technology that exists today is incredible. Any student can keep up with where they stand in a class. If they need help, they know it early on. All they have to do is go get the help.

Coaches get reports on their athletes progress, and if the athlete needs help, they are required to get help to participate in practice.

They are required to be at every class, and to sit in the first 2 rows. But no one can make them stay awake during class, and no one can make them study.

The scholarship football players at UT have a combined gpa of 1.94?? something like that? They need to get their asses into tutoring and get something done about THAT. And then maybe Cheek with get off their cheeks.

There is not much difference between one school, or one conference and another. Academically, they all have to answer to the NCAA.

(my kid has 2 practices a day, year round, is dead ass tired at the end of the day, is Pre-Vet and 3.75+gpa.)

Personal responsibilty. You might be there to play football, but you have to take care of your business to get that opportunity.

As someone who takes great pride in the degrees I have earned, uses them daily to earn a living, is damn proud of the fact that one is from the University of Tenne- "By-God Stand Up and Smile When You Say It"-see, and as a former tutor in the football program (circa mid-1990s) all I can say is well said, indeed!

Degrees have to mean something, lest the "Student" portion of Student-Athlete evaporate into nothingness.