Basketball has changed tremendously

#1

Redheads

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#1
First off, I’m a huge Rick Barnes fan. He’s forgotten way more about basketball than I’ve ever known. I’ve been a season ticket holder since the Buzz days so I’ve seen the good and the bad and will take the coach we have now and be perfectly happy. Getting to a final four requires a great team, health, and a lot of luck.
The thing I wanted to discuss is how much the game has changed. 10 years ago, even 5 years ago, the game we have now is unrecognizable. Rick Barnes has run the same offense ever since he’s been here. Pass to wing, to corner, back to wing, to top, to other wing. It’s pretty when it works, ball reversal with an entry pass to the post occasionally. It gets everyone involved but it seems like the defense doesn’t really get concerned until after that fifth pass when we might try to score. To his credit, this year he had a plan B. Give it to DK, spread out, give him a pick, and watch him work.
The thing that is so different now is the amount of contact allowed. We’ve had one guy that I remember who looked for contact and that was Grant Williams. He would go up into and through your arms and score, get fouled, or often, both. Other than him, we’ve always had finesse players who avoid contact. People get upset about us not getting foul calls but we’re shooting fade away jumpers to avoid contact.
This year, everything really changed with the new block-charge rule. We haven’t adjusted at all to that. Teams that give us fits all do the same thing. Put your head down and drive straight into the rim. In the past, the defense for that was to step out and draw a charge. That’s not allowed any more. They do allow the defense to make so much more contact now as long as they are straight up. It’s amazing how many times 2-3 people meet at the rim and bang into each other with everybody ending up in the first row and nothing is called. Generally, though, the offense gets the call. All these teams we play have guards that just drive into people over and over. South Carolina, Texas A&M, and Miss St did it over and over to us. It’s a part of the game that we haven’t embraced but it seems that it’s here to stay. Gainey does it occasionally. Other than him, DK is the only one that even tries it. Everyone else shoots the pull up jumper from 8-10 feet (which most teams will happily give you) or drives in with zero intent to shoot and looks to kick it out. I feel like this is probably going to be what ends our season this year, just failing to embrace the physicality allowed. I hope I’m wrong.
 
#2
#2
First off, I’m a huge Rick Barnes fan. He’s forgotten way more about basketball than I’ve ever known. I’ve been a season ticket holder since the Buzz days so I’ve seen the good and the bad and will take the coach we have now and be perfectly happy. Getting to a final four requires a great team, health, and a lot of luck.
The thing I wanted to discuss is how much the game has changed. 10 years ago, even 5 years ago, the game we have now is unrecognizable. Rick Barnes has run the same offense ever since he’s been here. Pass to wing, to corner, back to wing, to top, to other wing. It’s pretty when it works, ball reversal with an entry pass to the post occasionally. It gets everyone involved but it seems like the defense doesn’t really get concerned until after that fifth pass when we might try to score. To his credit, this year he had a plan B. Give it to DK, spread out, give him a pick, and watch him work.
The thing that is so different now is the amount of contact allowed. We’ve had one guy that I remember who looked for contact and that was Grant Williams. He would go up into and through your arms and score, get fouled, or often, both. Other than him, we’ve always had finesse players who avoid contact. People get upset about us not getting foul calls but we’re shooting fade away jumpers to avoid contact.
This year, everything really changed with the new block-charge rule. We haven’t adjusted at all to that. Teams that give us fits all do the same thing. Put your head down and drive straight into the rim. In the past, the defense for that was to step out and draw a charge. That’s not allowed any more. They do allow the defense to make so much more contact now as long as they are straight up. It’s amazing how many times 2-3 people meet at the rim and bang into each other with everybody ending up in the first row and nothing is called. Generally, though, the offense gets the call. All these teams we play have guards that just drive into people over and over. South Carolina, Texas A&M, and Miss St did it over and over to us. It’s a part of the game that we haven’t embraced but it seems that it’s here to stay. Gainey does it occasionally. Other than him, DK is the only one that even tries it. Everyone else shoots the pull up jumper from 8-10 feet (which most teams will happily give you) or drives in with zero intent to shoot and looks to kick it out. I feel like this is probably going to be what ends our season this year, just failing to embrace the physicality allowed. I hope I’m wrong.
You mean Rick Barnes refusing to adapt is going to be our downfall?! Crazy talk!
 
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#4
#4
First off, I’m a huge Rick Barnes fan. He’s forgotten way more about basketball than I’ve ever known. I’ve been a season ticket holder since the Buzz days so I’ve seen the good and the bad and will take the coach we have now and be perfectly happy. Getting to a final four requires a great team, health, and a lot of luck.
The thing I wanted to discuss is how much the game has changed. 10 years ago, even 5 years ago, the game we have now is unrecognizable. Rick Barnes has run the same offense ever since he’s been here. Pass to wing, to corner, back to wing, to top, to other wing. It’s pretty when it works, ball reversal with an entry pass to the post occasionally. It gets everyone involved but it seems like the defense doesn’t really get concerned until after that fifth pass when we might try to score. To his credit, this year he had a plan B. Give it to DK, spread out, give him a pick, and watch him work.
The thing that is so different now is the amount of contact allowed. We’ve had one guy that I remember who looked for contact and that was Grant Williams. He would go up into and through your arms and score, get fouled, or often, both. Other than him, we’ve always had finesse players who avoid contact. People get upset about us not getting foul calls but we’re shooting fade away jumpers to avoid contact.
This year, everything really changed with the new block-charge rule. We haven’t adjusted at all to that. Teams that give us fits all do the same thing. Put your head down and drive straight into the rim. In the past, the defense for that was to step out and draw a charge. That’s not allowed any more. They do allow the defense to make so much more contact now as long as they are straight up. It’s amazing how many times 2-3 people meet at the rim and bang into each other with everybody ending up in the first row and nothing is called. Generally, though, the offense gets the call. All these teams we play have guards that just drive into people over and over. South Carolina, Texas A&M, and Miss St did it over and over to us. It’s a part of the game that we haven’t embraced but it seems that it’s here to stay. Gainey does it occasionally. Other than him, DK is the only one that even tries it. Everyone else shoots the pull up jumper from 8-10 feet (which most teams will happily give you) or drives in with zero intent to shoot and looks to kick it out. I feel like this is probably going to be what ends our season this year, just failing to embrace the physicality allowed. I hope I’m wrong.
If all you've watched is our losses, you'd think that way. Go back and watch our wins and you'll see us doing all the things that you think we should do.
 
#6
#6
The NCAA powers that be indicated several years ago that freedom of movement for offenses was going to be the STANDARD. They even pretended to take charges all but out of games (exception being when refs have to even up the calls or open the door for the teams about to be blown out by a non blue blood).

So coaches that recruited to that concept have now been blindsided by the Kung Foo defensive style that has now moved from not just the paint, but to the perimeter as well.
 
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#7
#7
You can bet the number of field goals Barnes teams make will determine how many stops they get on defense. Those rim clangers give the opposition run outs and one-on-one drives to the basket. When the team goes 0-15 they are going to get trampled on the other end. Just a reasonable shooting percentage will be fine.
 
#8
#8
If all you've watched is our losses, you'd think that way. Go back and watch our wins and you'll see us doing all the things that you think we should do.
I’ve actually seen every game. Not arguing with you at all. Just an observation about how much the game has changed. I will say that it seems you can usually tell within the first couple of minutes how the game will be called and whether it will suit our style or not.
 
#9
#9
Barnes never adapts in March. Just take a look at his all time late February and March record it’s terrible. He’s good to get you 24 to 26 wins and bounced in the opening weekend of the NCAA tournament.
Just for the record ....

Rick Barnes has taken 3 different schools to the Sweet 16. These are his eight 2nd and 3rd week of the NCAA Tournament appearances while at Clemson, Texas and Tennessee :

Clemson

Sweet 16 appearances
1996-1997

Texas

Sweet 16 appearances
2001-2002
2003-2004

Elite 8 appearances
2005-2006
2007-2008

Final 4 appearances
2002-2003

Tennessee

Sweet 16 appearances
2018-2019
2022-2023
 
#10
#10
First off, I’m a huge Rick Barnes fan. He’s forgotten way more about basketball than I’ve ever known. I’ve been a season ticket holder since the Buzz days so I’ve seen the good and the bad and will take the coach we have now and be perfectly happy. Getting to a final four requires a great team, health, and a lot of luck.
The thing I wanted to discuss is how much the game has changed. 10 years ago, even 5 years ago, the game we have now is unrecognizable. Rick Barnes has run the same offense ever since he’s been here. Pass to wing, to corner, back to wing, to top, to other wing. It’s pretty when it works, ball reversal with an entry pass to the post occasionally. It gets everyone involved but it seems like the defense doesn’t really get concerned until after that fifth pass when we might try to score. To his credit, this year he had a plan B. Give it to DK, spread out, give him a pick, and watch him work.
The thing that is so different now is the amount of contact allowed. We’ve had one guy that I remember who looked for contact and that was Grant Williams. He would go up into and through your arms and score, get fouled, or often, both. Other than him, we’ve always had finesse players who avoid contact. People get upset about us not getting foul calls but we’re shooting fade away jumpers to avoid contact.
This year, everything really changed with the new block-charge rule. We haven’t adjusted at all to that. Teams that give us fits all do the same thing. Put your head down and drive straight into the rim. In the past, the defense for that was to step out and draw a charge. That’s not allowed any more. They do allow the defense to make so much more contact now as long as they are straight up. It’s amazing how many times 2-3 people meet at the rim and bang into each other with everybody ending up in the first row and nothing is called. Generally, though, the offense gets the call. All these teams we play have guards that just drive into people over and over. South Carolina, Texas A&M, and Miss St did it over and over to us. It’s a part of the game that we haven’t embraced but it seems that it’s here to stay. Gainey does it occasionally. Other than him, DK is the only one that even tries it. Everyone else shoots the pull up jumper from 8-10 feet (which most teams will happily give you) or drives in with zero intent to shoot and looks to kick it out. I feel like this is probably going to be what ends our season this year, just failing to embrace the physicality allowed. I hope I’m wrong.
So you’re suggesting that Zeigler, Vescovi, and James drive into traffic and “embrace the physicality” when in your words “nothing is called”? That sounds like a blocked shot or turnover just waiting to happen. Those guys are not great finishers at the rim even without contact. Zeigler is probably the best finisher of those three, but he’s only 5’9” (probably shorter), so he needs to be wide open to avoid getting his shot blocked.

The only players on the roster that are capable of consistently making tough shots through contact are Knecht and Mashack, and they both do that already. Maybe they should do it even more. When the other guards seek contact, they are just hoping for a foul, which they may or may not get.
 
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#11
#11
I’ve actually seen every game. Not arguing with you at all. Just an observation about how much the game has changed. I will say that it seems you can usually tell within the first couple of minutes how the game will be called and whether it will suit our style or not.
We’ve played well against the same approach Mississippi State used when we have remembered to cover our gaps and not allow blow-bys. They got those drives yesterday because our guys did not play up to those standards. The other bit was our own drives, usually outside of our offense so we lacked court balance to prevent fast breaks. In our wins we do a better job at that (not to mention typically better shooting).
 
#12
#12
We’ve played well against the same approach Mississippi State used when we have remembered to cover our gaps and not allow blow-bys. They got those drives yesterday because our guys did not play up to those standards. The other bit was our own drives, usually outside of our offense so we lacked court balance to prevent fast breaks. In our wins we do a better job at that (not to mention typically better shooting).

I felt like our defense was okay early. It seemed to me that it started to break down after the team continued to miss shot after shot after shot on the offensive end. And then we never recovered.

Our offense never looked good in this game. We shot 30%, and the percentage had to be even lower for the first half.
 
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#13
#13
I felt like our defense was okay early. It seemed to me that it started to break down after the team continued to miss shot after shot after shot on the offensive end. And then we never recovered.

Our offense never looked good in this game. We shot 30%, and the percentage had to be even lower for the first half.
It was hovering around 25% in the first half. It was reminiscent of the Cuonzo years.
 
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#14
#14
So you’re suggesting that Zeigler, Vescovi, and James drive into traffic and “embrace the physicality” when in your words “nothing is called”? That sounds like a blocked shot or turnover just waiting to happen. Those guys are not great finishers at the rim even without contact. Zeigler is probably the best finisher of those three, but he’s only 5’9” (probably shorter), so he needs to be wide open to avoid getting his shot blocked.

The only players on the roster that are capable of consistently making tough shots through contact are Knecht and Mashack, and they both do that already. Maybe they should do it even more. When the other guards seek contact, they are just hoping for a foul, which they may or may not get.
I’m not suggesting that at all. We have what we have. And I never intended to start a “bash Rick Barnes” thread at all. I’m just commenting on how other teams have embraced that style where you know they don’t really feel like they have a chance to make the shot, just either draw a foul or get the rebound for a putback when our big guys come to help. They used to have to worry about getting a charge call, which we were very good at. Not any more. Just a comment on how the game has changed. Late in the shot clock used to be a long 3. Now it’s a head down drive straight to the rim and try to get a foul or a basket.
 
#16
#16
First off, I’m a huge Rick Barnes fan. He’s forgotten way more about basketball than I’ve ever known. I’ve been a season ticket holder since the Buzz days so I’ve seen the good and the bad and will take the coach we have now and be perfectly happy. Getting to a final four requires a great team, health, and a lot of luck.
The thing I wanted to discuss is how much the game has changed. 10 years ago, even 5 years ago, the game we have now is unrecognizable. Rick Barnes has run the same offense ever since he’s been here. Pass to wing, to corner, back to wing, to top, to other wing. It’s pretty when it works, ball reversal with an entry pass to the post occasionally. It gets everyone involved but it seems like the defense doesn’t really get concerned until after that fifth pass when we might try to score. To his credit, this year he had a plan B. Give it to DK, spread out, give him a pick, and watch him work.
The thing that is so different now is the amount of contact allowed. We’ve had one guy that I remember who looked for contact and that was Grant Williams. He would go up into and through your arms and score, get fouled, or often, both. Other than him, we’ve always had finesse players who avoid contact. People get upset about us not getting foul calls but we’re shooting fade away jumpers to avoid contact.
This year, everything really changed with the new block-charge rule. We haven’t adjusted at all to that. Teams that give us fits all do the same thing. Put your head down and drive straight into the rim. In the past, the defense for that was to step out and draw a charge. That’s not allowed any more. They do allow the defense to make so much more contact now as long as they are straight up. It’s amazing how many times 2-3 people meet at the rim and bang into each other with everybody ending up in the first row and nothing is called. Generally, though, the offense gets the call. All these teams we play have guards that just drive into people over and over. South Carolina, Texas A&M, and Miss St did it over and over to us. It’s a part of the game that we haven’t embraced but it seems that it’s here to stay. Gainey does it occasionally. Other than him, DK is the only one that even tries it. Everyone else shoots the pull up jumper from 8-10 feet (which most teams will happily give you) or drives in with zero intent to shoot and looks to kick it out. I feel like this is probably going to be what ends our season this year, just failing to embrace the physicality allowed. I hope I’m wrong.
The game has changed because of "street ball". The true game is not taught anymore. You are big and rough or you can't play the game now days. As I watch these post season games from all over I think "man, this guy would be a helluva tight end or that "little 6"3" guard would be a great receiver"
 
#17
#17
Barnes Tennessee teams have been upset by a much lower seed in the NCAA tournament every year he has been here, in games they were expected and picked to win by the oddsmakers.

The Barnes struggles in March are well documented, the root causes and mitigants are a source of debate, it's a long season in the SEC, but each team in the NCAA tournament has played a full season, come tournament time, there is plenty of video, film, footage and analysis on Tennessee and if the offensive and defensive product isn't refined, enhanced, retooled for the different defenses and built for contingencies, it's an easier team to defend in March and an easier team to score on than it was in November and an earlier exit that we had all expected (again).
 
#18
#18
The game has changed because of "street ball". The true game is not taught anymore. You are big and rough or you can't play the game now days. As I watch these post season games from all over I think "man, this guy would be a helluva tight end or that "little 6"3" guard would be a great receiver"
I think I kinda agree with this. The two biggest changes in my lifetime are the 3 pt shot, which kinda has a street ball concept to it. And the rounding off of the precise rules for ball handling and ball control. Used to be you knew what a carry was, you knew what a walk was, and you knew what a player control foul was. And the officials called it consistently and accordingly. Now, a carry, a walk, and a charge are just whatever an official wants it to be on that day.
 
#19
#19
I think I kinda agree with this. The two biggest changes in my lifetime are the 3 pt shot, which kinda has a street ball concept to it. And the rounding off of the precise rules for ball handling and ball control. Used to be you knew what a carry was, you knew what a walk was, and you knew what a player control foul was. And the officials called it consistently and accordingly. Now, a carry, a walk, and a charge are just whatever an official wants it to be on that day.
As a former sports official over 4 decades, inc basketball, I couldn't agree more. Much of this change is dictated to the officials organization by the ruling sports authority then passed down the ladder. The 3 pt line does have a street ball feel as does the other changes you mention.

There were few black officials so we called games of all color but I can tell you without a doubt that these changes began in black basketball. So we ended up calling "white"games one way, "black" games another. Mixed games were a nightmare.
 
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