Biofuels Deemed a Greenhouse Threat

#1
True_Fan

True_Fan

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#2
#2
I read/listened to this on NPR a few days ago before it showed up in the NYTimes. These are the sorts of "life-cyle" analyses that will be critical in assessing new energy systems - the scale is so large even small changes become important.

The study certainly seems valid, but it is worth noting a few things. First, the time period of evaluation (30 years in this case) is critical in defining how much more of a CO2 footprint the new market would have over gasoline - for example, over 100 years it could be smaller. Second, there is an implied assumption that the biofuel market must necessarily displace farm crops, but this wouldn't be the case in something like a biodiesel from algae market (not advocating that, just pointing it out). And, third, ethanol from corn is stupid. OK...that last one had nothing to do with the article really, I just had to say it.
 
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TennTradition said:
I read/listened to this on NPR a few days ago before it showed up in the NYTimes. These are the sorts of "life-cyle" analyses that will be critical in assessing new energy systems - the scale is so large even small changes become important.

The study certainly seems valid, but it is worth noting a few things. First, the time period of evaluation (30 years in this case) is critical in defining how much more of a CO2 footprint the new market would have over gasoline - for example, over 100 years it could be smaller. Second, there is an implied assumption that the biofuel market must necessarily displace farm crops, but this wouldn't be the case in something like a biodiesel from algae market (not advocating that, just pointing it out). And, third, ethanol from corn is stupid. OK...that last one had nothing to do with the article really, I just had to say it.
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I agree...I wish there were more effort put into ethanol or methanol from waste biomass(think of Back to the Future 2 when Doc uses waste for fuel)...I am not a believer in man-made climate change but I am for conservation with respect to waste/ recycling...also anything that would accelerate the weakening of OPEC
 
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True_Fan said:
I agree...I wish there were more effort put into ethanol or methanol from waste biomass(think of Back to the Future 2 when Doc uses waste for fuel)...I am not a believer in man-made climate change but I am for conservation with respect to waste/ recycling...also anything that would accelerate the weakening of OPEC
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I'm not sure what biomass options are best - or even if ethanol is the best fuel option, but ethanol from corn is just not right. Why would we switch to a market that has about a 1.05 energy gain....we would have to have huge scale just to get decent energy gains. Other things that are interesting are more cellulose-based feedstocks with ethanol production, biodiesel from algae, and dimethylfuran as the fuel as opposed to ethanol (higher energy density ... but may have to be made from sugars, primarily fructose right now, but also perhaps glucose).
 
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I think biofuels harvested from algae will be the only economically viable method.
 
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#6
How much research has been done in capturing cow farts for fuel?
 
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#9
One problem with biodiesel from algae is that the economies of scale are all thrown off. In normal plants, you increase volume much faster than you increase surface area - and surface area is where costs lie (for example, materials of construction). However, in algae, you want to maximize surface area (at least I would think that you would need to - to promote exposure to sunlight). When maximizing surface area, you maximize material costs - so you don't get those nice economies of scale that have supported our energy infrastructure for so long. It doesn't necessarily make it uncompetitive ... just something that will hurt its bottom line...
 
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hmanvolfan said:
How much research has been done in capturing cow farts for fuel?
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Cow-powered Fuel Cells Grow Smaller, Mightier

ScienceDaily (Aug. 24, 2007) — Cows could one day help to meet the rise in demand for alternative energy sources, say Ohio State University researchers that used microbe-rich fluid from a cow to generate electricity in a small fuel cell.
Click to expand...

not so far off as one might think...:thumbsup: oh yeah...Buckeyes Suck!!!!
 
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TennTradition said:
One problem with biodiesel from algae is that the economies of scale are all thrown off. In normal plants, you increase volume much faster than you increase surface area - and surface area is where costs lie (for example, materials of construction). However, in algae, you want to maximize surface area (at least I would think that you would need to - to promote exposure to sunlight). When maximizing surface area, you maximize material costs - so you don't get those nice economies of scale that have supported our energy infrastructure for so long. It doesn't necessarily make it uncompetitive ... just something that will hurt its bottom line...
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thats why guys like you make the big bucks, to figure problems like that out :thumbsup:
 
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oklavol said:
thats why guys like you make the big bucks, to figure problems like that out :thumbsup:
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This guy isn't making big bucks...maybe some day ... I'm grateful for my stipend...but an actual paycheck would be quite nice :)

These are interesting problems to work on - I think that energy innovation and infrastructure is a very exciting area.
 
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TennTradition said:
This guy isn't making big bucks...maybe some day ... I'm grateful for my stipend...but an actual paycheck would be quite nice :)

These are interesting problems to work on - I think that energy innovation and infrastructure is a very exciting area.
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sidebar:

According to reliable sources, PetroSun is already in its final stages of testing commercially scaled CO2 injecting bioreactors that produce algae biomass that can provide 30 times the production per acre of biodiesel than corn or soybeans.
Injecting CO2 means the bioreactor needs to be near a place that already produces CO2, in the case of PetroSun, major cities and industries that can capturethe needed gas would be more economical to avoid higher transportation costs, and allow self-reliance on a more practical scale.
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Algae Biodiesel as a Sustainable Solution | Biodiesel Times

PetroSun: Algae Biofuels Reaches Final Stage
 
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Yeah...it really sounds like CO2 injection is needed to get the yield up there. There really isn't anything wrong with that if you are getting your CO2 from existing energy sources, per se. It would obviously be even better if the yields could be good with just atmospheric concentrations of CO2, so that you could have a closed cycle...but you are still getting an advantage here.
 
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TennTradition said:
Yeah...it really sounds like CO2 injection is needed to get the yield up there. There really isn't anything wrong with that if you are getting your CO2 from existing energy sources, per se. It would obviously be even better if the yields could be good with just atmospheric concentrations of CO2, so that you could have a closed cycle...but you are still getting an advantage here.
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Whats your opinion of this? Do you think in 5 years they can be providing biodiesel from algae at the same cost that diesel is provided now?

I'm real excited about this kind of technology. I think it might be a real breakthrough for getting the country off foreign oil. That combined with the oil shale in Utah, there's no reason why we couldnt provide are own fuel and stop buying fuel from the middle east and venezuela.

Whenever I see the amount of money being throwna way in Iraq instead of being invested here in these ventures, makes me sick.
 
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oklavol said:
Whats your opinion of this? Do you think in 5 years they can be providing biodiesel from algae at the same cost that diesel is provided now?

I'm real excited about this kind of technology. I think it might be a real breakthrough for getting the country off foreign oil. That combined with the oil shale in Utah, there's no reason why we couldnt provide are own fuel and stop buying fuel from the middle east and venezuela.

Whenever I see the amount of money being throwna way in Iraq instead of being invested here in these ventures, makes me sick.
Click to expand...

You could at least argue that the Iraqi efforts are aimed at enabling some form of energy security from the region - so it may be some form of investment in this future energy supply (if all you are worried about is supply - and not other aspects like CO2 emissions from fossil fuels).

Before I get to algae, one thing worth mentioning about oil sands and oil shale is that they are both notoriously crappy forms of oil. Not all oil is created equal. Oil shale varies widely from source to source, but chemical processes can pyrolize or crack it down to smaller chains if needed. In the end, this adds to product cost, both from a dollar standpoint, but perhaps more importantly - an energy input standpoint. These sources of oil will likely become important, but they are going to be a lot different than traditional petroleum on the refining end.

As for biodiesel from algae, I may have to give this a bit more thought. I truly haven't ever thought much about the economics of this option over other biodiesels (or vs. other renewables). I'll see what I can come up with....

One issue is that our reliance on oil goes well beyond making gasoline, so biodiesel could only be part of the answer.
 
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