Blame Game

[TruthIsOutThere]

I really enjoy watching both sides of the political spectrum playing the blame game. Republicans seem to blame all current problems on Obama, and Democrats seem to blame all current problems on eight years of Bush. I tend to think that most of our major problems are the result of policy decisions that were put in motion long before either. So, what do you guys think - who owns the largest share of blame for the following - Obama, Bush, or the third option, pre Bush politics.

Here are the issues I'm interested in:

Oil Spill
US Economic Collapse
Mortgage Meltdown
National Debt
Lagging Education Standards
Aging Infrastructure

Again, I would argue that all of these are the fault of policies initiagted many years before either president. Certainly neither did or has done much to fix the problems, but that is another topic.

Just curious as to the thoughts here.

Take care!

 

[droski]

oil spill - everyone to blame for not realizing that deep water needed different regulations than shallow water
us economic collapse - shared blame for lowering standards and low interest rates, but mostly blind luck and alan greenspan. bubbles are part of humanity.
mortgaqge meltdown -same as above
national debt - bush and obama both are to blame here. unions are to blame as well
lagging education standards - overblown. we still have the best universities in the world
aging infrastructure - aslo overblown.

 

[volinbham]

Oil Spill (BP above all; MMS shoddy work before; current admin and bureaucratic agency overlap after)

US Economic Collapse (market distorting policies and regulations from both parties but primarily Dem; focus on making money on transactions rather than creation and innovation by the business sector; human nature consumption via debt rather than earnings and irrational belief in the upside)

Mortgage Meltdown (see above)

National Debt (politicians first and foremost; entitlement culture that has resulted)

Lagging Education Standards (liberal dominance in education field; merging of knowledge education with multiculturalism and social justice)

Aging Infrastructure (human nature and politicians)

see comments above in ()

 

[BigPapaVol]

Oil Spill - catastrophes happen. Our inability to respond here is about pandering to the environmental lobby. A spill was bound to happen at some point. An unmanageable spill due to enormous depth of drilling spot is lack of vision with a splash of stupidity.

US Economic Collapse - cyclical / bubble driven economics is not limited to parties

Mortgage Meltdown - many issues here. Credit default swaps getting to pose as insurance was the main culprit in allowing underwriting to fall through the floor. Trend toward shoddy underwriting was begun in the 90s with huge push by Fannie and Freddie in a massively misguided effort toward universal home ownership. The bottom line is that everyone is not capable of owning a home.

National Debt - long term politics marked by vote buying. It has become a larger problem over time and from day 1. Vote buying is disastrous as a long term strategy for governance. Many political philosophers have sounded this trumpet over time and have been proven right more than not.

Lagging Education Standards - don't see it, but this problem is more about family erosion over time than it is about government involvement. Pissing money at the problem has clearly been an utter failure.

Aging Infrastructure - time seems the problem here.

 

[TXA&M07]

I really enjoy watching both sides of the political spectrum playing the blame game. Republicans seem to blame all current problems on Obama, and Democrats seem to blame all current problems on eight years of Bush. I tend to think that most of our major problems are the result of policy decisions that were put in motion long before either. So, what do you guys think - who owns the largest share of blame for the following - Obama, Bush, or the third option, pre Bush politics.

Here are the issues I'm interested in:

Oil Spill BP.
US Economic Collapse Clinton's fake economy
Mortgage Meltdown Thats on both parties really.
National Debt Clinton's fake economy, and war stemmed from Clinton being more interested in panties and playing jazz music .
Lagging Education Standards This one is on Bush. NCLB was a joke.
Aging Infrastructure Greedy folks in office looking after their best interests now, instead of the greater good for the people they serve.

Again, I would argue that all of these are the fault of policies initiagted many years before either president. Certainly neither did or has done much to fix the problems, but that is another topic.

Just curious as to the thoughts here.

Take care!

in bold

 

[MG1968]

NCLB isn't to blame for lagging educational standards, that fault lies squarely on the shoulders of the teachers' unions and a university tenure system that rewards and protects mediocrity.

 

[TruthIsOutThere]

NCLB isn't to blame for lagging educational standards, that fault lies squarely on the shoulders of the teachers' unions and a university tenure system that rewards and protects mediocrity.

I think NCLB was dumb, but I agree that teachers' unions are doing more harm than good now. I can't believe the clout that union has.

 

[sjt18]

I really enjoy watching both sides of the political spectrum playing the blame game. Republicans seem to blame all current problems on Obama, and Democrats seem to blame all current problems on eight years of Bush. I tend to think that most of our major problems are the result of policy decisions that were put in motion long before either. So, what do you guys think - who owns the largest share of blame for the following - Obama, Bush, or the third option, pre Bush politics.

Here are the issues I'm interested in:

Oil Spill

Both Bush and Obama. Perhaps the most underreported "link" in this story is between the long leash President Obama gave BP and their record contributions to candidate Obama.

Obama's response has been a comedy of errors and has revealed his hypocrisy. He won't lift the act that could flood help into the area due to his commitment to unions. His EPA is actually worried that water filtered by some of the largest skimmers is a small percentage less clean than they require.

You can however go back a little further... to those who caused deep sea drilling in the first place. If this was in shallow waters of say 300 feet or better on dry land in the Rockies or ANWR then it would have been stopped in about a week.

US Economic Collapse

You can basically blame an ideal rather individuals on this... That ideal is that a central planning authority whether marxist or Keynesian can eliminate economic risks or "redistribute wealth" without dire consequences. There is necessary risks and pain in an economy if you want enough freedom to create expanding wealth. One of those "pains" is the consequences of being unproductive. We make it way too easy for people to not be as productive in producing wealth as they are capable of.

One of the things that both parties but in particular the Dems can be blamed for is "riskless investment" schemes. They deem something worthwhile so they encourage very risky behavior by underwriting an investor's principle. Somewhat the same line of reasoning that caused them to force bankers to accept risky mortgage apps.

Free trade vs Fair trade is also hurting the US and ironically the world economy.

The failure to protect our manufacturing base and worse to pass laws that actually pressure manufacturing out of the US.

A ridiculously micromanaging tax scheme that is not efficient for gathering revenue.

Unions have also hurt the country- less by demanding higher wages and benefits than by inhibiting or sometimes preventing innovation and labor saving process improvements. If the unions had acted with any degree of foresight, we could have vibrant but leaner heavy manufacturing still today. There would have been fewer workers but they would have been highly skilled and paid.

Mortgage Meltdown

The financial meltdown would not have occurred without sub-prime mortgages. Sub-prime mortgages would not have happened without a law signed by Carter or an Exec order signed by Clinton... but pretty much every politician in between was happy to take credit for record home ownership numbers.

National Debt

Liberals of both parties that controlled policy from at least Wilson to Carter. Most of the programs that have driven us deeply into debt were created between 1930 and around 1975.

No matter how high or low taxes are... gov't spending cannot exceed the equillibrium point with private wealth.

Lagging Education Standards

Plenty of blame to go around from parents to teacher's unions to those who design curriculum to cultural influences. But as with anything that fails due to quality, the biggest factor is a lack of real competition. That is why some sort of fostering of private alternatives is necessary and even healthy for the public system.

The public school monopoly is simply a failed experiment. IMHO, an unfettered voucher system is the way to go. The only requirement should be that the student must pass two grade equivalency tests per year.

Aging Infrastructure

More votes to be bought with free bennies than with good roads and safe railways. It isn't far sighted... but most politicians only worry about the next election.

 

[sjt18]

national debt - bush and obama both are to blame here. unions are to blame as well

The debt problem was destined to occur when the social programs of primarily FDK and LBJ passed. Ponzi schemes when constucted by an investor are illegal... when constructed by a politician they're supposedly good, benevolent policy.

Our children and grandchildren aren't going to think so...

 

[lawgator1]

I really enjoy watching both sides of the political spectrum playing the blame game. Republicans seem to blame all current problems on Obama, and Democrats seem to blame all current problems on eight years of Bush. I tend to think that most of our major problems are the result of policy decisions that were put in motion long before either. So, what do you guys think - who owns the largest share of blame for the following - Obama, Bush, or the third option, pre Bush politics.

Here are the issues I'm interested in:

Oil Spill
Big oil in bed with regulators. Not Bush or Obama so much as fraud endemic to regulatory system.

US Economic Collapse
Dems have virtually zero culpability here. The lax refulation of the financial industry falls squarely into Bush's lap.

Mortgage Meltdown
Equal. Dems pushed too much access to cheap money, R's looked the other way as crook traders repackaged and resold the paper over and over and over and over....

National Debt
R's a little bit more than Dems. While Dems have spent big now, a significant portion is directly a consequence of trying to stimulate a financing system that the R's allowed to freeze up. The R's were too generous with tax cuts for their friends.

Lagging Education Standards
Dems bear bulk of responsibility here. The R's are incompetent at figuring out how to articulate higher standards without pissing everybody off. The Dems have been fighting more accountability for far too long.

Aging Infrastructure
Both. The problem is that highway expansion takes a long time to do and get credit for.


Again, I would argue that all of these are the fault of policies initiagted many years before either president. Certainly neither did or has done much to fix the problems, but that is another topic.

Just curious as to the thoughts here.

Take care!

See above on individual issues. But in terms of the general sentiment in the country that things are going poorly, the R's bear much more of the fault than the Dems. Not only are R policies at the core of much of the malaise we have now, but the R's are using that malaise to falsify claims against Obama and the Dems, which reinforces the lack of economic confidence.

 

[vols4sure]

US Economic Collapse
Dems have virtually zero culpability here. The lax refulation of the financial industry falls squarely into Bush's lap.

National Debt
R's a little bit more than Dems. While Dems have spent big now, a significant portion is directly a consequence of trying to stimulate a financing system that the R's allowed to freeze up. The R's were too generous with tax cuts for their friends.
.

No culpability?

I blame voters that have views similar to lawgator's.

 

[IPorange]

Remember the good ole days, when we all just blamed the Jews and minorities?

 

[lawgator1]

Remember today, when we Republicans just blamed the blacks and Hispanics as lazy and criminal?

fyp

 

[volinbham]

US Economic Collapse
Dems have virtually zero culpability here. The lax refulation of the financial industry falls squarely into Bush's lap.

Seriously? Congress (Dem controlled) has oversight of all these regulatory agencies. Dems were at least equal partners in the rules and regs that set up the meltdown. The actions of the Fed (confirmed by Dems and Reps) played a rule as well.

In short, blaming the financial meltdown soley on Bush shows lack of understanding of the meltdown itself.

 

[lawgator1]

Seriously? Congress (Dem controlled) has oversight of all these regulatory agencies. Dems were at least equal partners in the rules and regs that set up the meltdown. The actions of the Fed (confirmed by Dems and Reps) played a rule as well.

In short, blaming the financial meltdown soley on Bush shows lack of understanding of the meltdown itself.

Who runs the regulatory agencies in the Executive branch? Under whose watch did the oversight tail off markedly? Who sat by as it unraveled to the point of days from complete economic collapse?

 

[volinbham]

Who runs the regulatory agencies in the Executive branch? Under whose watch did the oversight tail off markedly? Who sat by as it unraveled to the point of days from complete economic collapse?

Ummm look at your answer for mortgage meltdown. That was a major part of the financial problems. It was a culmination of many factors short-term and long-term

Using the "who runs them" argument then Obama is responsible for the Oil Spill problems.

Blaming it on all and only on Bush is dumb and partisan.

 

[gsvol]

Oil Spill

I'm still not sure this wasn't done on purpose to satisfy the purposes of such groups as the Club at Rome to help bankrupt America bring about world government.

I know that sounds perhaps terribly paranoid but stranger things have happened.

One thing is for sure, this administration has been terribly inept (designated federal isnspectors if they had done their job would not have let this occur) in acting to minimize the spill (purposely slow or not, still terribly inept), on the contrary they have done as much as possible to use the crisis event to further their own agenda. (Not to be unexpected, that's the way they roll and they aren't even ashamed of it.)


US Economic Collapse

One of the biggest factors happened during the Clinton administration when they removed the barrior between banking and insurance, look at where tarp and stimulus money went, that was the hole where the money disappeared.



Mortgage Meltdown

Forcing people to make bad loans for sociological reasons has it's fiscal repercussions, no getting around that.


National Debt

Started with the federal reserve act of 1913 which was supposed to guarantee a stable money flow, just sixteen years later we had the greatest depression in American history.

Without the federal reserve act it is highly doubtful we would have very much debt today.

Likewise current 'financial reform' legislation will put us right back in the same trick within twenty years imo.

Another factor in the national debt category is that we bail out countries who go down the socialist path and fail and then we prop them back up again and then point to how socialism works so well in those places, Argentina is a great example.

On guy about ten years ago said that; "convincing the American people that they have been ripped off for fifteen trillion dollas is going to be a hard sell."

I definately agee with him and it only appears that things will be far worse in the future if we continue down the inane path layed out for us by the demicrats (and some [too many] republicans.)

Lagging Education Standards

Back in 1962 I attended an intensive language school, after two weeks only Russian was permitted in class, most programs would like you to retain 75% of what is covered, we covered so much ground they thought 10% retention was good.

The headmaster was a Lithuanian who was both appallled and extremely angered that his students, supposedly the creme of the crop of what America had to offer, (and they were the most intelligent recruits), did not know that Lithuania was a free country before WWII but were controlled by the Stalinist USSR afterwards.

So when I talk about brainwashed young people in America today, I talk also about my own generation also, who weren't given all the factoids while supposedly being educated.

Aging Infrastructure

Be more specific????

You asked, thems my two cents, more or less.

 

[gsvol]

US Economic Collapse
Dems have virtually zero culpability here. The lax refulation of the financial industry falls squarely into Bush's lap.

Do you ever pass the bath room an get the urge to walk in, look squarely in the mirror at yourself and say; "what a freaking idiot I am?"

If not you should consider it.

No culpability?

I blame voters that have views similar to lawgator's.

I blame the rest of us who allow some people to get by with voting 6 to 12 times in every election.

Some people vote in every precinct in their respective cities, some times more than once in each precinct.

Why that stupid POS Al Franken is now rebresenting Minnesotta in Washington:

Watchdog Groups Says Convicted Felons Are Voting Illegally | KSTP TV - Minneapolis and St. Paul

 

[droski]

Who runs the regulatory agencies in the Executive branch? Under whose watch did the oversight tail off markedly? Who sat by as it unraveled to the point of days from complete economic collapse?

i love this argument. every time in american history the housing market has dropped significantly has resulted in hundreds of banks going bankrupt. this time was no different. the housing industry is the backbone of the economy. record high home ownership only magnified this issue and i very much doubt you can blame the record high home ownership and prices on george bush.

 

[lawgator1]

i love this argument. every time in american history the housing market has dropped significantly has resulted in hundreds of banks going bankrupt. this time was no different. the housing industry is the backbone of the economy. record high home ownership only magnified this issue and i very much doubt you can blame the record high home ownership and prices on george bush.

Of coursed not. It was greed, pure and simple.

But there were a lot of greedy people involved, not just poor people buying too much house to flip, which is the mantra of the banking and finance industries.

 

[droski]

Of coursed not. It was greed, pure and simple.

But there were a lot of greedy people involved, not just poor people buying too much house to flip, which is the mantra of the banking and finance industries.

but what do you think obama or gore or whatever would have done differently? name me a single time an industry has been regulated DURING the bubble rather than after the crash? as long as things are going smoothly, people are making money, homes are being bought, etc there will be no call for regulation. a perfect example is the current oil spill.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Of coursed not. It was greed, pure and simple.

But there were a lot of greedy people involved, not just poor people buying too much house to flip, which is the mantra of the banking and finance industries.

The greed canard. Beautiful. Acting as if the buyer in the transaction isn't the driver is simply naive. I know it doesn't fit the wealthy as economy destroyers model, but it's reality.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[sjt18]

LG, regulatory oversight didn't just become lax under Bush. Clinton for 8 years was very laissez-faire on regulatory oversight... except he did sign an executive order forcing banks to approve more risky loans.

Fannie and Freddie are Dem creations. They were protected vigorously by congressional Dems even while conservatives wailed about their risks.

The economic collapse occurred primarily because of the housing bubble. The housing bubble was created as a DIRECT RESULT of a law signed by Carter and expanded to dangerous extents by Bill Clinton.

BOTH parties happily took credit while home ownership was going up and the artificial demand was causing homebuilders to speculate dangerously and blindly. But the ball was most definitely set in motion by the Dems.

 

[sjt18]

Who runs the regulatory agencies in the Executive branch? Under whose watch did the oversight tail off markedly? Who sat by as it unraveled to the point of days from complete economic collapse?

Big oil in bed with regulators. Not Bush or Obama so much as fraud endemic to regulatory system

Who runs the regulatory agencies? Under whose watch did the oversight fail to prevent a major oil spill? Who sat by and "trusted BP" while oil gushed?

The answer: The guy who took more BP campaign donations than anyone.

 

[OrangeYankee]

I really enjoy

Here are the issues I'm interested in:

Oil Spill

The spill itself? BP and the lax way they bypassed the inspection by just dialing in an approval for the pipe against the foreman on the rig's advise.

The clean up? This falls on the government squarely. The EPA being the Dbags they are and stalling on the burms. Not overlooking the silly act that keeps skimmers in their area in this time of crisis. We have 1600 skimmers out there and they only are allowing a little over 400. Not only that most countries in the world are wanting to send skimmers too but the Jones Act is forbidding them.

US Economic Collapse

Other people have said this very well and I agree with them

Mortgage Meltdown

Same here

National Debt

This started with the New Deal and has been a growing cancer since then. And Bush and his Republicrats are just as bad: the drug plan being a great example.
Lagging Education Standards

Aging Infrastructure

One of the few things the government should be in charge of is the one thing that is most ignored. However, problem is I wonder just how much we are overspending on the projects we actually do from the simple fact that most of these projects are dialed in to "buddies."



Take care!

That's my thoughts