Blueshirting and Trying to Explain the Rules

[TNHopeful505]

I have seen a lot of people throw out the idea of blueshirting prospects, and occasionally will see "backcounting," and other things to make classes work out number wise, and I feel like because of the fluidity of recruiting rules and such, that I should at least attempt to explain what we can and can't do.

I am not anyone who claims to have studied the rules, I get my info from here mostly. But because I keep seeing it, I'll try to explain. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Please. I just want to learn and help people understand as best as possible.

We started using Blueshirts in the Butch days. It was a way to sign extra players above the 25 limit the SEC imposed. A loophole, per se.

Basically, if a prospect hadn't taken an OV or been visited in home by a head coach, then he was eligible for a blue shirt. He wouldnt sign a NLI and would just sign a financial agreement. He wouldnt be announced on signing day. This in essence meant he could be brought in, pay his own way the first semester of school, and then placed on scholarship at the end of the Fall semester. It was rare, and had to be coordinated, but we did it a few times.

The rules have changed. You can no longer blueshirt someone, or at least...it doesn't benefit you to.

There are two numbers that are important. 85 and 25.

You can have 85 players ON SCHOLARSHIP on your roster. Meaning, every single player from Freshman to Redshirt senior, no matter how they got to your program, if they are being paid to play football, that's your 85.

You can sign 25 players PER RECRUITING CLASS. This is a firm limit. The SEC imposed this, but now I believe it's national.

But there is another 25 that is important.

You can only bring in 25 INITIAL COUNTERS per academic year.

An INITIAL COUNTER is anyone who comes on scholarship from August (Fall) of one school year to July (Summer) of the same school year. So basically, between August 2019 and July 2020, we can only sign 25 players to scholarships. It does not matter if it is recruiting class, transfers, preferred walk ins. Anyone who goes on scholarship between those dates is considered an initial counter. And you only get 25 of them a school year.

So, blueshirting, cannot happen, because a blueshirt is still an initial counter if we give them a scholarship in a academic year. If a player comes in in August, pays his own way for a semester, and then is put on scholarship in January, he is considered an INITIAL COUNTER. You can only have 25 of these a year. Whether they start in August or January, it doesnt matter, they are that school year, and you can only take 25.

Therefore, we CANNOT blue shirt anyone anymore. Or at least, it wouldn't make sense to.

Obviously, this creates a problem. If you have people transferring out, you can only have 25 a year come in, how on earth do you get to 85?

The answer: Preferred Walk Ons.

A PWO is promised a scholarship, and is probably told when they could earn one, then may be put on scholarship when a spot opens up. We saw this with Isaiah Montgomery and Pak Garland, Andrew Craig, Kenney Solomon recently.

So how can we do this in the middle of the year? Easy. Not all players went on scholarship in August.

Example: Harrison Bailey will come in as a Early Enrollee. He will be on scholarship starting in January 2020. And next January (2021), we will have a spot for either another Early Enrollee, OR a PWO to get on scholarship. Harrison Bailey will no longer be an "Initial Counter."

So, I say all of that to say this: It is not as easy as saying "Give them a blueshirt, or make them a PWO." You can't just let someone be an EE. They have to be able to fit the players AND the timing just right.

Recruiting really is a huge puzzle, and it takes some incredibly big picture thinking folks to figure out how to make it work. My hat is off to Drew Hughes and all of those who make this whole thing work. Recruiting and managing a team requires more evaluation, character team players, academically disciplined young men, and planning than ever.

Hopefully all of this was correct and simple. Feel free anyone to correct me or add on. I just am a guy who tries to make sense of all of the ridiculousness the NCAA puts on us.

Looking forward to a strong finish. GBO!

 

[37620VOL]

So if you sign 25/yr and lose a net of 10/yr, your playing with a roster of 60. I don't know if these new rules are sustainable, especially with the portal the way it is right now.

 

[TNHopeful505]

So if you sign 25/yr and lose a net of 10/yr, your playing with a roster of 60. I don't know if these new rules are sustainable, especially with the portal the way it is right now.

And now you understand why we are playing so far behind the 8 ball.

Personally, I believe that for every player that transfers out, the coach should be allowed to add a spot to their recruiting class to replace that scholarship.

But then, you're right back to the same thing of Coach "advises" the kid he isnt going to play, and he gets processed.

There's no right answer. The rules are to protect the players and to protect the team as well.

But the transfer portal screws the teams. And the ability to sign more but no more than 85 screws the players.

 

[TNHopeful505]

Here's the optimal way to do it.

You have a class of 25 that you sign. They are good, high character kids who dont have discipline or academic issues. They fit your system, and they are coachable. And they are not going to transfer, they're in it for the long haul.

For every class of 25, you can lose 3-4 per year and be under the 85. In fact, you'd have to.

Our attrition has come due to: coaching changes, injuries, discipline issues, transfers. We hemorrhaged players this year. But, give a few years of solid evaluation and stability, and things should be MUCH better.

 

[RollerVol]

good stuff 505...thanks...

GO BIG ORANGE...BEAT THE HOOSIERS!

 

[tbones0711]

I appreciate the insights 505. For the most part, since this 25 per year rule came in, I've been confused and it's mainly due to these transfers,(out). Like you stated, a player decides to leave who is on a scholly you'd think you would be entitled to an opening to replace that scholly. That's not how it works though. I can't grasp the notion of how we or any other team can ever get to full strength of 85 but you are trying to explain the PWO's impact in all this. I'm going to have to read more into or be forever confused. One thing I can say is that I have a lot of confidence in coach Pruitt's ability to evaluate players under these rules and the staff he has, such as the mentioned Drew Hughes. A heckuva lot to coaching these days.
Thanks again and Go Big Orange !

 

[savannahfan]

I have seen a lot of people throw out the idea of blueshirting prospects, and occasionally will see "backcounting," and other things to make classes work out number wise, and I feel like because of the fluidity of recruiting rules and such, that I should at least attempt to explain what we can and can't do.

I am not anyone who claims to have studied the rules, I get my info from here mostly. But because I keep seeing it, I'll try to explain. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Please. I just want to learn and help people understand as best as possible.

We started using Blueshirts in the Butch days. It was a way to sign extra players above the 25 limit the SEC imposed. A loophole, per se.

Basically, if a prospect hadn't taken an OV or been visited in home by a head coach, then he was eligible for a blue shirt. He wouldnt sign a NLI and would just sign a financial agreement. He wouldnt be announced on signing day. This in essence meant he could be brought in, pay his own way the first semester of school, and then placed on scholarship at the end of the Fall semester. It was rare, and had to be coordinated, but we did it a few times.

The rules have changed. You can no longer blueshirt someone, or at least...it doesn't benefit you to.

There are two numbers that are important. 85 and 25.

You can have 85 players ON SCHOLARSHIP on your roster. Meaning, every single player from Freshman to Redshirt senior, no matter how they got to your program, if they are being paid to play football, that's your 85.

You can sign 25 players PER RECRUITING CLASS. This is a firm limit. The SEC imposed this, but now I believe it's national.

But there is another 25 that is important.

You can only bring in 25 INITIAL COUNTERS per academic year.

An INITIAL COUNTER is anyone who comes on scholarship from August (Fall) of one school year to July (Summer) of the same school year. So basically, between August 2019 and July 2020, we can only sign 25 players to scholarships. It does not matter if it is recruiting class, transfers, preferred walk ins. Anyone who goes on scholarship between those dates is considered an initial counter. And you only get 25 of them a school year.

So, blueshirting, cannot happen, because a blueshirt is still an initial counter if we give them a scholarship in a academic year. If a player comes in in August, pays his own way for a semester, and then is put on scholarship in January, he is considered an INITIAL COUNTER. You can only have 25 of these a year. Whether they start in August or January, it doesnt matter, they are that school year, and you can only take 25.

Therefore, we CANNOT blue shirt anyone anymore. Or at least, it wouldn't make sense to.

Obviously, this creates a problem. If you have people transferring out, you can only have 25 a year come in, how on earth do you get to 85?

The answer: Preferred Walk Ons.

A PWO is promised a scholarship, and is probably told when they could earn one, then may be put on scholarship when a spot opens up. We saw this with Isaiah Montgomery and Pak Garland, Andrew Craig, Kenney Solomon recently.

So how can we do this in the middle of the year? Easy. Not all players went on scholarship in August.

Example: Harrison Bailey will come in as a Early Enrollee. He will be on scholarship starting in January 2020. And next January (2021), we will have a spot for either another Early Enrollee, OR a PWO to get on scholarship. Harrison Bailey will no longer be an "Initial Counter."

So, I say all of that to say this: It is not as easy as saying "Give them a blueshirt, or make them a PWO." You can't just let someone be an EE. They have to be able to fit the players AND the timing just right.

Recruiting really is a huge puzzle, and it takes some incredibly big picture thinking folks to figure out how to make it work. My hat is off to Drew Hughes and all of those who make this whole thing work. Recruiting and managing a team requires more evaluation, character team players, academically disciplined young men, and planning than ever.

Hopefully all of this was correct and simple. Feel free anyone to correct me or add on. I just am a guy who tries to make sense of all of the ridiculousness the NCAA puts on us.

Looking forward to a strong finish. GBO!

As always "I'am so confused" (as in the old "laugh-in" show) More so than I was before I read this. I kept thinking as I read "how the hell do you ever get to 85". This crap sorta reminds me of the China birth/population rule of some years back. Now I see, what some thought at the time, that their population is staying near the same year to year, but ageing. Don't know about ageing, but controlling population sure seems to be working on us. Just can't see how you can get to 85 very easily.

 

[savannahfan]

Here's the optimal way to do it.

You have a class of 25 that you sign. They are good, high character kids who dont have discipline or academic issues. They fit your system, and they are coachable. And they are not going to transfer, they're in it for the long haul.

For every class of 25, you can lose 3-4 per year and be under the 85. In fact, you'd have to.

Our attrition has come due to: coaching changes, injuries, discipline issues, transfers. We hemorrhaged players this year. But, give a few years of solid evaluation and stability, and things should be MUCH better.

The problem with your answer is "everyone else is going after the same limited number of prospects that you are".

 

[3rdDegreeVol]

I have seen a lot of people throw out the idea of blueshirting prospects, and occasionally will see "backcounting," and other things to make classes work out number wise, and I feel like because of the fluidity of recruiting rules and such, that I should at least attempt to explain what we can and can't do.

I am not anyone who claims to have studied the rules, I get my info from here mostly. But because I keep seeing it, I'll try to explain. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Please. I just want to learn and help people understand as best as possible.

We started using Blueshirts in the Butch days. It was a way to sign extra players above the 25 limit the SEC imposed. A loophole, per se.

Basically, if a prospect hadn't taken an OV or been visited in home by a head coach, then he was eligible for a blue shirt. He wouldnt sign a NLI and would just sign a financial agreement. He wouldnt be announced on signing day. This in essence meant he could be brought in, pay his own way the first semester of school, and then placed on scholarship at the end of the Fall semester. It was rare, and had to be coordinated, but we did it a few times.

The rules have changed. You can no longer blueshirt someone, or at least...it doesn't benefit you to.

There are two numbers that are important. 85 and 25.

You can have 85 players ON SCHOLARSHIP on your roster. Meaning, every single player from Freshman to Redshirt senior, no matter how they got to your program, if they are being paid to play football, that's your 85.

You can sign 25 players PER RECRUITING CLASS. This is a firm limit. The SEC imposed this, but now I believe it's national.

But there is another 25 that is important.

You can only bring in 25 INITIAL COUNTERS per academic year.

An INITIAL COUNTER is anyone who comes on scholarship from August (Fall) of one school year to July (Summer) of the same school year. So basically, between August 2019 and July 2020, we can only sign 25 players to scholarships. It does not matter if it is recruiting class, transfers, preferred walk ins. Anyone who goes on scholarship between those dates is considered an initial counter. And you only get 25 of them a school year.

So, blueshirting, cannot happen, because a blueshirt is still an initial counter if we give them a scholarship in a academic year. If a player comes in in August, pays his own way for a semester, and then is put on scholarship in January, he is considered an INITIAL COUNTER. You can only have 25 of these a year. Whether they start in August or January, it doesnt matter, they are that school year, and you can only take 25.

Therefore, we CANNOT blue shirt anyone anymore. Or at least, it wouldn't make sense to.

Obviously, this creates a problem. If you have people transferring out, you can only have 25 a year come in, how on earth do you get to 85?

The answer: Preferred Walk Ons.

A PWO is promised a scholarship, and is probably told when they could earn one, then may be put on scholarship when a spot opens up. We saw this with Isaiah Montgomery and Pak Garland, Andrew Craig, Kenney Solomon recently.

So how can we do this in the middle of the year? Easy. Not all players went on scholarship in August.

Example: Harrison Bailey will come in as a Early Enrollee. He will be on scholarship starting in January 2020. And next January (2021), we will have a spot for either another Early Enrollee, OR a PWO to get on scholarship. Harrison Bailey will no longer be an "Initial Counter."

So, I say all of that to say this: It is not as easy as saying "Give them a blueshirt, or make them a PWO." You can't just let someone be an EE. They have to be able to fit the players AND the timing just right.

Recruiting really is a huge puzzle, and it takes some incredibly big picture thinking folks to figure out how to make it work. My hat is off to Drew Hughes and all of those who make this whole thing work. Recruiting and managing a team requires more evaluation, character team players, academically disciplined young men, and planning than ever.

Hopefully all of this was correct and simple. Feel free anyone to correct me or add on. I just am a guy who tries to make sense of all of the ridiculousness the NCAA puts on us.

Looking forward to a strong finish. GBO!

I just wanted to provide some clarification about the rules. It doesn't change the gist of your post much but there is little bit of difference.

The first is about the limit on signings (i.e. letters of intent or financial aid paperwork). There is a provision in the rules that stipulates if the paperwork specifies the aid is provided in the second or third term of the year that the signing can count against either the current year or the next year.

Second, for initial counters there's actually two rules at play that I think you've gotten crossed. For recruited athletes the rule is similar to the signings rule where, if they receive aid after the first term, they can count against either the current or the following year. For nonrecruited athletes, it's a little bit different. If they receive aid after beginning practice then they don't have to be counted as an initial counter until the next year but will still count against the total counters for the current year.

 

[TNHopeful505]

I just wanted to provide some clarification about the rules. It doesn't change the gist of your post much but there is little bit of difference.

The first is about the limit on signings (i.e. letters of intent or financial aid paperwork). There is a provision in the rules that stipulates if the paperwork specifies the aid is provided in the second or third term of the year that the signing can count against either the current year or the next year.

Second, for initial counters there's actually two rules at play that I think you've gotten crossed. For recruited athletes the rule is similar to the signings rule where, if they receive aid after the first term, they can count against either the current or the following year. For nonrecruited athletes, it's a little bit different. If they receive aid after beginning practice then they don't have to be counted as an initial counter until the next year but will still count against the total counters for the current year.

Thank you! As I said, I just did the best with what I had, but yes, that makes sense! Thank you!

 

[Catbone]

The unfortunate thing about it is that it takes a lot longer to flip a roster than it did several years ago. I hate it these rules

 

[TNHopeful505]

The unfortunate thing about it is that it takes a lot longer to flip a roster than it did several years ago. I hate it these rules

Very. Theres no way to meet in the middle with this.
My opinion?

If a player transfers within two years, he doesnt have to sit out a year, and the school gets a scholarship back for the next class (i.e. could sign 26). The player who transfers also wouldnt be counted as an initial counter towards the school he is transferring to. This allows players and coaches to say "alright, we made a mistake, but nobody should have to pay for it. You can go play where ever, and we will just recruit another player."

However, if the player has been at a school for 2+ years, then transferring causes him to have to sit a year, and he takes a spot in the class of 25, and the university does not get his scholarship back. This allows players to not transfer for just whatever reason after two season, and would also prevent the university for telling them to transfer, knowing that they cant replace him anyways.

That to me seems reasonable. There needs to be flexibility for the players, but also accountability for them, and the same for the universities.

I can understand it not working out, but dont punish the schools. But once a player has been there a couple of years, if they leave, it needs to be with consequence to both parties. JMO

 

[Devo182]

Pretty much with the blueshirts. You still can and we still do just to reach the 25 limit, but that is its only use. Just can't use them to go over. And once you exhaust them, you're done using them and just sign a normal 25.

We were using 2 last year (Harris of course never made it anyway). So I believe and 247 agreed we probably just need to use 1 blueshirt this year to hit 25. We'll keep using 1 a year to keep maxing out classes unless something happens, like another Harris situation where we just sign 24.

A blueshirt's timeline is basically:
Signee this year
IC for the following year

So it is staggered.

 

[LampVol]

As always "I'am so confused" (as in the old "laugh-in" show) More so than I was before I read this. I kept thinking as I read "how the hell do you ever get to 85". This crap sorta reminds me of the China birth/population rule of some years back. Now I see, what some thought at the time, that their population is staying near the same year to year, but ageing. Don't know about ageing, but controlling population sure seems to be working on us. Just can't see how you can get to 85 very easily.

I"m so confused!!
Vinnie Barbarino
Sweat Hog
Welcome Back Kotter

 

[2xVol]

So if you sign 25/yr and lose a net of 10/yr, your playing with a roster of 60. I don't know if these new rules are sustainable, especially with the portal the way it is right now.

It allows for an attrition rate of 4 (!!) per recruiting class. So you are supposed to graduate 84% which I think would beat non-athlete graduation rates. It's completely absurd.

 

[keenobserver]

This post is exactly right. This is why recruiting shouldnt only be about the most talented players anymore. It should be recruiting the most talented kids that have a strong belief in the coaching staff and current players on the roster. I'd pass on those really good players that appear to be "me" guys and drama queens....Preston Williams, DaRick, Hurd, etc......gotta look at it like a business investment..

 

[Devo182]

It allows for an attrition rate of 4 (!!) per recruiting class. So you are supposed to graduate 84% which I think would beat non-athlete graduation rates. It's completely absurd.

And yet we need to shed guys each year...

Not sure how you arrived at any of those numbers. Below is a schedule for a rotating 85 man roster. It would ideally have 17 left in the senior class, then have attrition of 8 over the following year. I believe we need to shed 6 or 7 more this year to even fit a 25 class. We aren't hurting for numbers...

17
20
23
25

 

[CAVPUT]

As always "I'am so confused" (as in the old "laugh-in" show) More so than I was before I read this. I kept thinking as I read "how the hell do you ever get to 85". This crap sorta reminds me of the China birth/population rule of some years back. Now I see, what some thought at the time, that their population is staying near the same year to year, but ageing. Don't know about ageing, but controlling population sure seems to be working on us. Just can't see how you can get to 85 very easily.

I take a different approach. The coaches are paid big bucks to figure it all out, and I don't work for free. I'll just note who we signed and our class rank. I don't really worry about the minutia or try to make sense of it all. Just give me the bottom line.

 

[37620VOL]

Also might explain why you might go the extra mile with second chances, thinking about Jennings, Thompson, and Banks. Attrition management is now critical. I don't think I'd can a player unless the school policy made me.

 

[37620VOL]

And yet we need to shed guys each year...

Not sure how you arrived at any of those numbers. Below is a schedule for a rotating 85 man roster. It would ideally have 17 left in the senior class, then have attrition of 8 over the following year. I believe we need to shed 6 or 7 more this year to even fit a 25 class. We aren't hurting for numbers...

17
20
23
25

I don't think we've had 17 seniors running through the T each year. Below is a schedule for a rotating typical UT roster over the last several years. It has to improve in the future because it can no longer be masked by 30+ man recruiting classes.

12
17
21
25

75 Total Available not counting injured list

But I'm not worried because I think Pruitt is proving to be much better at managing attrition than his predecessor.