Butch and Bajakians offense

[Z06VolinWV]

It may have been said, I didn't read the whole thread, but I remember CBJ saying somewhere that he was installing his system, and going with it from the get go. He didn't want to modify it to fit the players (QB) that were here. He had a reasoning behind it, but I forget what he said, something to the effect that it would benefit everyone rather than trying something to suit the roster.

 

[Bigorangedad3528]

It may have been said, I didn't read the whole thread, but I remember CBJ saying somewhere that he was installing his system, and going with it from the get go. He didn't want to modify it to fit the players (QB) that were here. He had a reasoning behind it, but I forget what he said, something to the effect that it would benefit everyone rather than trying something to suit the roster.

To me that seems like the way to go. He has won enough games to have a pretty good idea how to do it.

 

[ItsAllVols]

I just have a few things id like to discuss and a few questions to ask for someone that might have a little bit more offensive knowledge than i do.
Hasn't it always been thought that the best offensive coordinators build their offense and adjust around their best players?
I remember watching a pre draft interview with bray and him saying that butch and the staff wanted him to run alot more in the new offense. Are you kidding me why would you EVER run a read option with him as your starter. And also why do we even run read option with Worley. It makes no sense, the guy is not even the least bit mobile and you can tell he's not very comfortable or productive in it. There is no threat of him keeping it on the read so you would think we would find different ways to run the ball. Butch doesn't seem to like playing very much under center at all so maybe some pistol would be great to get the ground and play action game going

New offense...book is only half opened...too may freshman playing...they all have to learn the book...next year you will see how the spread will change how the defense plays us...TIME is all we need.

 

[engineerVOL]

Actually, Worley is a pretty good runner. He showed some savvy, some grit in his scamper against Alabama. I don' think he's a had a negative rush play on his handful of keepers.

But Yea... running with Bray would have been a disaster.

 

[YorkVol]

U only have to look at the fla n org games to see how this staff feels about their system n style of coaching. They make a decision not stick with it regardless if it works or not in that game i.e. lost fla game due to refuse to change qb until it was over and org game not going for it on 4th n short several times.

Bottom line he is going tinting his system regardless. It will work or he will be our rich rod 2.0 for us.

 

[Orange_Crush]

No system should take so long to install that you need to install it now with players who can't run it in order to run it a year from now.

That said, when Dobbs was playing it looked like the system had potential.

We'll see how Missouri goes. I have a feeling we'll need to score alot to keep up. Hopefully, they'll be working on screens and bootlegs this week, because that's pretty much all South Carolina did in the 4th quarter last week and Missouri couldn't stop them.

Do you really want to have this conversation again? lol You looked ridiculous when you made the same statements in another thread last week.

As the summer comes to an end, new Virginia Tech football offensive coordinator Scot Loeffler has a plan of attack once Virginia Tech reconvenes at the start of August.

“We’re going install and we’re going install, install and install,” he said at a Roanoke Valley Sports Club event Monday night at the Salem Civic Center. “And after install, we’re going to install some more.”

Three months after the end of spring ball, Loeffler isn’t worried about retention, encouraged by the fact that what the team installed in the spring was “methodically slow,” simply putting down the building blocks of the offense.

Do you really want them spending every year installing an offense coming into fall, just working on building blocks, depending on the personnel?

Questions: Do you know what it takes to install a system? Do you even know what "offensive system" even fully means? Please reply and state exactly what is meant by "offensive system", and follow that up with what you have to do to install one.

I think you are not making the distinction between "installing a system", and "play calling within that system." You would be better served to complain about play calling, as opposed to system installation. It would be stupid to change systems out every year or so.

 

[Aerie Vol]

U only have to look at the fla n org games to see how this staff feels about their system n style of coaching. They make a decision not stick with it regardless if it works or not in that game i.e. lost fla game due to refuse to change qb until it was over and org game not going for it on 4th n short several times.

Bottom line he is going tinting his system regardless. It will work or he will be our rich rod 2.0 for us.

Next time you're enjoying a nice stroll through the forest, try NOT stopping to eat the mushrooms.

Rich Rod? Dude.

I love the way bUTch has our team rolling, and I'm glad he stuck with his plan.

AV
PS. Yes, he should've gone for a few 4th downs at Oregon, but it would have made only a slight difference in the outcome. Yes, Worley may well have beaten Fla, but his previous performances had forced CBJ into at least trying for a change.

 

[NashVOL93]

Bray asked chaney. Chaney told him to go pro. Cbj would never ask bray to run. His top 2 qb for 2014 are pro style. Not running qbs. He wants to run zone read. Not read option.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Again, you don't need Tebow 2.0 to run this offense - a PS QB will work just fine. All they need is the basic athleticism to make a 5-6 yard haul for a first down every now and then, and if you don't have that, you don't need to be a D1 athlete in the SEC. Even Bray could have done that, if he wanted to.

 

[oregonvol]

Do you really want to have this conversation again? lol You looked ridiculous when you made the same statements in another thread last week.

I will keep saying what I think on the subject. To my mind, you're the one that looked ridiculous, making the same old excuses about how you can't judge anything because of the talent, like you and many others also did with Dooley.

Do you really want them spending every year installing an offense coming into fall, just working on building blocks, depending on the personnel?

Questions: Do you know what it takes to install a system? Do you even know what "offensive system" even fully means? Please reply and state exactly what is meant by "offensive system", and follow that up with what you have to do to install one.

I think you are not making the distinction between "installing a system", and "play calling within that system." You would be better served to complain about play calling, as opposed to system installation. It would be stupid to change systems out every year or so.

We could debate the difference "play-calling within a system" and "installing a system", and you probably have a point that my issues would be more with the former. But, it's a fruitless debate because, to most of the posters here, when they reference installing the system, they're talking about both as if it were the same thing, and that is what I am responding to.

I don't understand why we are constantly running option runs out of a shotgun with a QB who is not a running threat. Call it a "play calling" issue or a "system" issue. Either way, it doesn't seem to help your running back pick up tough yards consistently, whereas more traditional plays, under center, in the "I", might. It's like when Urban Meyer had Chris Leak. He ran some option, but not much, because Chris Leak couldn't run the option effectively.

It all may be a moot point, because, from what I saw last Saturday, it looks like Dobbs can probably run alot of the option stuff and do well with it. But, that said, after seeing how South Carolina ran through Missouri with simple screens and bootlegs, I'd feel like we were not game planning effectively if we didn't try similar plays, regardless of what system we're installing.

 

[BenGrimm]

This a big picture to immediate gratification problem. Long run it's better for CBJ to install the fundamentals of his system now. Get it ingrained in the younger players. The trick for the immediate gratification crowd is molding the play calls to match the current (inherited) QB's strengths.

That's just where we are right now.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I will keep saying what I think on the subject. To my mind, you're the one that looked ridiculous, making the same old excuses about how you can't judge anything because of the talent, like you and many others also did with Dooley.

We could debate the difference "play-calling within a system" and "installing a system", and you probably have a point that my issues would be more with the former. But, it's a fruitless debate because, to most of the posters here, when they reference installing the system, they're talking about both as if it were the same thing, and that is what I am responding to.

Let's take a poll. I'll bet you made that up, like you have been prone to do.

I don't understand why we are constantly running option runs out of a shotgun with a QB who is not a running threat. Call it a "play calling" issue or a "system" issue. Either way, it doesn't seem to help your running back pick up tough yards consistently, whereas more traditional plays, under center, in the "I", might. It's like when Urban Meyer had Chris Leak. He ran some option, but not much, because Chris Leak couldn't run the option effectively.

One of your redeeming qualities is that you are free to admit that you don't understand things. But it becomes annoying when you admit your lack of knowledge, but continue talking out of orifices.

UT rushing stats, 2013:

NAME CAR YDS AVG LONG TD
Rajion Neal 145 763 5.3 53 9
Marlin Lane 63 360 5.7 54 4
Deanthonie Summerhill 20 115 5.8 15 0
Tom Smith 21 91 4.3 12 0
Alton Howard 12 73 6.1 20 0
Alden Hill 10 58 5.8 12 1
Justin Worley 19 56 2.9 13 0
Joshua Dobbs 3 19 6.3 11 0
Marquez North 1 9 9.0 9 0
Devrin Young 1 6 6.0 6 0
Totals 305 1539 5.0 54 14

UT rushing stats, 2012

Rajion Neal 156 708 4.5 29 5
Marlin Lane 120 658 5.5 45 2
Cordarrelle Patterson 25 308 12.3 67 (TD) 3
Devrin Young 33 140 4.2 30 0
Quenshaun Watson 23 66 2.9 15 1
Alton Howard 14 44 3.1 16 0
A.J. Johnson 12 21 1.8 4 6
Justin King 2 18 9.0 18 0
Ben Bartholomew 2 10 5.0 7 0
Tyler Drummer 1 5 5.0 5 (TD) 1
Totals 413 1924 4.7 67 18

UT rushing stats, 2011

AME CAR YDS AVG LONG TD
Tauren Poole 187 693 3.7 28 5
Marlin Lane 75 280 3.7 45 2
Rajion Neal 27 134 5.0 20 (TD) 2
Jaron Toney 31 74 2.4 8 0
Tom Smith 13 34 2.6 8 0
Matt Darr 1 30 30.0 30 0
Da'Rick Rogers 3 10 3.3 11 0
Devrin Young 6 9 1.5 6 0
Totals 392 1081 2.8 45 11

UT rushing stats, 2010

NAME CAR YDS AVG LONG TD
Tauren Poole 204 1034 5.1 59 (TD) 11
Rajion Neal 46 197 4.3 40 0
David Oku 42 174 4.1 44 (TD) 1
Da'Rick Rogers 16 117 7.3 21 0
Denarius Moore 7 82 11.7 58 (TD) 1
Chad Cunningham 1 25 25.0 25 0
Michael Palardy 1 16 16.0 16 0
Zach Rogers 3 14 4.7 9 0
Gerald Jones 6 13 2.2 12 0
Toney Williams 5 11 2.2 8 0
Totals 408 1420 3.5 59 14

UT rushing stats, 2009

NAME CAR YDS AVG LONG TD
Montario Hardesty 282 1345 4.8 43 (TD) 13
Bryce Brown 101 460 4.6 37 3
David Oku 23 94 4.1 16 2
Tauren Poole 10 85 8.5 34 0
Nu'Keese Richardson 6 58 9.7 41 0
Denarius Moore 3 23 7.7 21 0
Zach Rogers 1 15 15.0 15 0
Gerald Jones 2 7 3.5 8 0
Marsalis Teague 1 6 6.0 6 0
Kevin Cooper 1 3 3.0 3 0
Austin Johnson 1 2 2.0 2 0
Totals 477 2043 4.3 43 19

UT rushing stats, 2008

NAME CAR YDS AVG LONG TD
Arian Foster 131 570 4.4 41 1
Lennon Creer 73 388 5.3 45 (TD) 4
Montario Hardesty 76 271 3.6 27 6
Gerald Jones 23 126 5.5 55 1
Tauren Poole 22 86 3.9 19 0
Eric Berry 7 37 5.3 23 0
Jonathan Crompton 37 27 0.7 15 2
B.J. Coleman 7 17 2.4 10 0
Kevin Cooper 5 10 2.0 4 0
Totals 409 1475 3.6 55 14

2007...

NAME CAR YDS AVG LONG TD
Arian Foster 245 1193 4.9 59 (TD) 12
Montario Hardesty 89 373 4.2 26 3
Lennon Creer 36 214 5.9 38 1
LaMarcus Coker 45 169 3.8 27 1
Gerald Jones 8 58 7.3 20 2
Quintin Hancock 1 6 6.0 6 0
Kenny O'Neal 2 4 2.0 2 0
Lucas Taylor 1 1 1.0 1 0
Totals 459 1946 4.2 59 19

Can't pick up the "tough yards"...? This year has given us the highest yards-per-carry in at least the past 7 years...

Rectum? Dang near killed him!

It all may be a moot point, because, from what I saw last Saturday, it looks like Dobbs can probably run alot of the option stuff and do well with it. But, that said, after seeing how South Carolina ran through Missouri with simple screens and bootlegs, I'd feel like we were not game planning effectively if we didn't try similar plays, regardless of what system we're installing.

I will be watching the game this weekend. I'll defer play calling judgment until afterward.

 

[oregonvol]

Can't pick up the "tough yards"...? This year has given us the highest yards-per-carry in at least the past 7 years...

Well, I would hardly point to the last several years for evidence of quality. But, I will say I am surprised by that average. It just doesn't seem like it's helping us consistently sustain drives or avoid deadly 3-and-outs, the way a good running team typically does.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Well, I would hardly point to the last several years for evidence of quality. But, I will say I am surprised by that average. It just doesn't seem like it's helping us consistently sustain drives or avoid deadly 3-and-outs, the way a good running team typically does.

Those previous years were in pro-style, primarily I-formation offenses. Thus, your statement that those systems inherently produce better rushing is proven incorrect. You just admitted that those pro-style, i-formation systems were hardly the "evidence of quality."

You sure you still want to keep having this conversation at a "system" level?

Our running game has actually been good. Our inabilities have generally been in the passing game-- i.e. Worley's inaccuracy... Worley's trouble knowing his reads... Worley's troubles going through his progressions... WRs running the wrong routes, dropping balls, etc...

Thus, it's more proof that you don't want to install a new system every coupe of years, because you don't want receivers learning new routes every year. You don't want QBs learning new reads and progressions every year... Etc...

It's also due to talent and youth. Maybe you don't like to hear that, but it doesn't change the facts.

 

[Orange_Crush]

No system should take so long to install that you need to install it now with players who can't run it in order to run it a year from now.
.

Oh, and PS... You weren't remotely talking about play calling. You actually still thought they should install one system this year, and change it in the next year or two.

:hi:

 

[oregonvol]

Those previous years were in pro-style, primarily I-formation offenses. Thus, your statement that those systems inherently produce better rushing is proven incorrect. You just admitted that those pro-style, i-formation systems were hardly the "evidence of quality."

You sure you still want to keep having this conversation at a "system" level?

Our running game has actually been good. Our inabilities have generally been in the passing game-- i.e. Worley's inaccuracy... Worley's trouble knowing his reads... Worley's troubles going through his progressions... WRs running the wrong routes, dropping balls, etc...

Thus, it's more proof that you don't want to install a new system every coupe of years, because you don't want receivers learning new routes every year. You don't want QBs learning new reads and progressions every year... Etc...

It's also due to talent and youth. Maybe you don't like to hear that, but it doesn't change the facts.

I still wouldn't say our running game has been good. 8th in the SEC isn't really good. And when I said "tough yards", I meant picking up those key 3rd and short plays, which it feels like we have struggled with.

Please show me where I said the I form inherently produces better rushing. I did not say that. I said that I thought it might help us pick up tough yards. But you are right in the sense that we weren't really succeeding with it before, either. I'll concede that.

Still our offense has performed poorly, overall, throughout the season. We can all agree on that, right? Maybe it's just due to talent and youth. But that's pretty much what you folks said in the Dooley era too. At which point does that excuse get old? I don't think there is enough evidence to place the blame solely on the players. I think, when you can't move the ball reliably, you have to factor in the system as well and wonder, once again, why we are running option plays with a QB who is not a running threat. If it's so we can call them next year, that is silly (and that was the point of my initial post in this thread). If it's just because we think those are the best plays for Worley to run and give him the best chance to make plays, then that is bewildering.

 

[oregonvol]

Oh, and PS... You weren't remotely talking about play calling. You actually still thought they should install one system this year, and change it in the next year or two.

:hi:

Whether you want to call it "installing a system" or want to say it's the play-calling, I don't care. To most on this board, they are referencing the same thing. Did Urban Meyer install his full system with Chris Leak? Is that your contention? If Butch can install his system and not have Worley running constant zone read/option plays, then it's a moot point. I have been talking specifically about that aspect. If you want to call that simply "play-calling" that's fine. But very few on here are talking about blocking schemes or general philosophy. We're talking about the zone read plays that seem to be the main feature of Jones' system. And I don't understand why you need to run them with personnel who can't run them effectively, just so you can run them next year. No one does that.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I still wouldn't say our running game has been good. 8th in the SEC isn't really good. And when I said "tough yards", I meant picking up those key 3rd and short plays, which it feels like we have struggled with.

It has been better than anything in the past 7 years. I'll take it for now. And I said that the pass has been the biggest factor in our inabilities. When teams know you can't hurt them in the pass, they sit on the run and it pays the price. It's absolutely amazing that we have had the run production we have had, against the defensive formations its seen.

Please show me where I said the I form inherently produces better rushing. I did not say that. I said that I thought it might help us pick up tough yards. But you are right in the sense that we weren't really succeeding with it before, either. I'll concede that.

I don't understand why we are constantly running option runs out of a shotgun with a QB who is not a running threat. Call it a "play calling" issue or a "system" issue. Either way, it doesn't seem to help your running back pick up tough yards consistently, whereas more traditional plays, under center, in the "I", might. It's like when Urban Meyer had Chris Leak. He ran some option, but not much, because Chris Leak couldn't run the option effectively.

You seemed to indicate we would do much better in a pro-style, completely due to the fact that it would be a pro-style.

Still our offense has performed poorly, overall, throughout the season. We can all agree on that, right?

Absolutely. I've given several specific reasons as to why. Sadly, it's primarily due to: Young, lesser-talented players learning a new system. Whether you like to hear it or not has no bearing on its veracity.

Maybe it's just due to talent and youth. But that's pretty much what you folks said in the Dooley era too.

He was also dealing with the effects of attrition, talent and youth. He exacerbated the issue by proving that he was a bad coach. But we really couldn't definitively say that until he had had time to prove that.

At which point does that excuse get old?

When it is not valid. Again, your patience (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with the state of reality.

I don't think there is enough evidence to place the blame solely on the players.

Sorry. The facts of the matter are that we have young players, learning a new system, and lots of them struggle in the measurables.

I think, when you can't move the ball reliably, you have to factor in the system as well and wonder, once again, why we are running option plays with a QB who is not a running threat.

It's apparent that our problem is not the run game. Why come back to this?

If it's so we can call them next year, that is silly (and that was the point of my initial post in this thread).

That was not the point of your initial post. Your post mistakenly stated that no system is so complicated that you shouldn't be able to implement new ones from year to year. I quoted t just above, as a reminder. Point of advice: I would run far from bringing that up again.

If it's just because we think those are the best plays for Worley to run and give him the best chance to make plays, then that is bewildering.

You've stated and proven your lack of understanding. We get it.

:hi:

 

[Orange_Crush]

Whether you want to call it "installing a system" or want to say it's the play-calling, I don't care. To most on this board, they are referencing the same thing. Did Urban Meyer install his full system with Chris Leak? Is that your contention? If Butch can install his system and not have Worley running constant zone read/option plays, then it's a moot point. I have been talking specifically about that aspect. If you want to call that simply "play-calling" that's fine. But very few on here are talking about blocking schemes or general philosophy. We're talking about the zone read plays that seem to be the main feature of Jones' system. And I don't understand why you need to run them with personnel who can't run them effectively, just so you can run them next year. No one does that.

I care. It's two different things, and you obviously meant, "Installing a system." The statement:

"No play call should take so long to install that you need to install it now with players who can't run it in order to run it a year from now."

You obviously were speaking about the system. It was an idiotic statement. Own it.

And again. Let's take a poll. I say you are making up the assertion that when people say, "install a system", they really mean, "call a play". Shall we ask everyone?

 

[oregonvol]

I care. It's two different things, and you obviously meant, "Installing a system." The statement:

"No play call should take so long to install that you need to install it now with players who can't run it in order to run it a year from now."

You obviously were speaking about the system. It was an idiotic statement. Own it.

And again. Let's take a poll. I say you are making up the assertion that when people say, "install a system", they really mean, "call a play". Shall we ask everyone?

So, just so I'm clear on this, it is your contention that Jones can install his system without calling the zone read play constantly and having Worley run it?

 

[Orange_Crush]

So, just so I'm clear on this, it is your contention that Jones can install his system without calling the zone read play constantly and having Worley run it?

He can. It's just a play call.

Then, one must ask himself why he has. Perhaps he's seen Worley have success with it when he's kept it?

I don't know if they instructed Worley not to keep it often, due to protecting him... I do remember reading Butch say he wished Worley would keep it more.

In any event, it's just a play in a system. Of course he could run the system without calling it. It would be harder, because the system is predicated on it. But he could.

But at the end of the day... Scroll up and look at those rushing stats again. You actually changing to an i-formation, pro-style offense would guarantee better rushing stats? While still having the same QB as a passing-O fail-dozer?

You still think they should have installed a pro-style, i-formation system this year. just so everyone could struggle in a new system again next year?

:crazy:

 

[oregonvol]

Absolutely. I've given several specific reasons as to why. Sadly, it's primarily due to: Young, lesser-talented players learning a new system. Whether you like to hear it or not has no bearing on its veracity.

You haven't given any reasons beyond speculation. Also, I thought I read in your past posts that Dooley improved the talent here. It's odd then, that it's still the reason we're struggling.

He was also dealing with the effects of attrition, talent and youth. He exacerbated the issue by proving that he was a bad coach. But we really couldn't definitively say that until he had had time to prove that.

Odd then, that plenty of people were able to identify that he was a bad hire from the moment the hire was made. Some of us were able to look at his record at La. Tech and make a logical conclusion.

 

[Orange_Crush]

So, just so I'm clear on this, it is your contention that Jones can install his system without calling the zone read play constantly and having Worley run it?

And... Just so I'm clear... You're finally admitting you weren't talking about play calling, but were actually talking about installing a system this year, just to go through the growing pains again next year? Own it, OV.

 

[oregonvol]

He can. It's just a play call.

Then, one must ask himself why he has. Perhaps he's seen Worley have success with it when he's kept it?

I don't know if they instructed Worley not to keep it often, due to protecting him... I do remember reading Butch say he wished Worley would keep it more.

In any event, it's just a play in a system. Of course he could run the system without calling it. It would be harder, because the system is predicated on it. But he could.

But at the end of the day... Scroll up and look at those rushing stats again. You actually changing to an i-formation, pro-style offense would guarantee better rushing stats? While still having the same QB as a passing-O fail-dozer?

You still think they should have installed a pro-style, i-formation system this year. just so everyone could struggle in a new system again next year?

:crazy:

Okay, so we don't need to run the zone read in order to install the system, right? Okay, I thought from the many comments I have read on here that the two went hand-in-hand. But, if they don't, cool. I'll amend what I initially said before to, "The zone read isn't so complicated that you need to install it with a QB who can't run it effectively, just so you can run it next year." Happy?

 

[Orange_Crush]

You haven't given any reasons beyond speculation. Also, I thought I read in your past posts that Dooley improved the talent here. It's odd then, that it's still the reason we're struggling.

Actually, I don't remember saying that he improved our talent, beyond his first recruiting class. It's obvious his class rankings dropped steadily as he stayed here.

And a player's class and measurables are speculation? Ok.

Odd then, that plenty of people were able to identify that he was a bad hire from the moment the hire was made. Some of us were able to look at his record at La. Tech and make a logical conclusion.

If you were using the logic per CDD that you are using now, it is obvious you were blind. But I seem to remember folks mentioning his previous record as a head coach. That doesn't seem to hold water with CBJ. Nor does his ability to recruit seem to be an issue.

Per CBJ, with you, it seems to be that you want him to change offensive schemes every year or so. If he doesn't do that, he's a bad coach.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Okay, so we don't need to run the zone read in order to install the system, right? Okay, I thought from the many comments I have read on here that the two went hand-in-hand. But, if they don't, cool. I'll amend what I initially said before to, "The zone read isn't so complicated that you need to install it with a QB who can't run it effectively, just so you can run it next year." Happy?

Finally! You've owned it. Congratulations.

You've admitted that your expectations were for this coaching staff to install one system this year, then scrap it and install a different system next year. I applaud you for your sudden burst of honesty. Shame on you for having idiotic expectations.