Can / will Fulmer turn it around...

[RealVol]

One of the 10 win seasons turned out to be against the 40 or 50 something weakest schedule in the nation.

Granted Fulmer has won a lot of games, some by luck and very few w his or his staffs coaching savvy. That to me is what is sickening, consistent recruitment of top 10 / top 5 classes and narrow victories against lesser talented teams. Often half hearted performances executing the same old predictable 8 plays.

Trust me if most 9 year old kids have figured out our tired offensive scheme, I believe most defensive staffs have as well.

 

[smokedog#3]

true cotton fulmer is mostly responsible for the talent level. that is where he is great recruiting. as for coaching i never really thought he was all that great. hawkins that went to colorado is a good young coach. pat hill is another i wouldn't mind seeing wear orange. norm chow i believe if offered the head coaching job would do a better job. i think you guys also are counting urban meyer out at florida alittle to early. he's not charlie weiss, but he is more than adequate to beat fulmer year in and out. regardless i don't see tennessee beating georgia for the east anytime soon. richt has proven he has fulmer's number and as his recruiting classes get better every year, we will fall further behind. i honestly next year donot see tennessee finishing any better than 3rd or 4th best in the east and it is just going to get worse in years to come as spurrier and meyer get there people in place. we need a different coach to get us back to a elite team, fulmer has gone as far as he is going to. :mf_surrender:

 

[WA_Vol]

Originally posted by KentheOrange@Dec 17, 2005 6:18 PM
That's true.  However you missed the fact that Fulmer has played 15 more games than Majors and 14 more games than Battle during the seven years periods (I omitted 1992 entirely for obvious reasons). 

Sometimes it's not the quantity of losses, it's who beat you.  You do realize that in the 7 years Battle was HC he beat Bama once and Auburn twice, was 1 - 1 against Georgia, and 2 - 1 against Florida when they were lucky to have enough players to field a team.

Majors was 4-12 against Bama, 6 - 7 against Auburn, 1 - 4 against Florida, and 3 - 3- 1 against Georgia.

Fulmer is 10 - 3 against Bama, 3 - 3 against Auburn, 5 - 9 against Florida, and 9 - 5 against Georga.

You will be thrilled if Fulmer can duplicate Majors record after his 5 - 6 season in 1988.  1989 was 10 - 1 (the loss against Bama) and a Cotton Bowl win.

Losing to Bama, Florida and Georgia will get Fulmer long before the total losses.  Fulmer has been a Vol a long time.  He knows that.

:twocents:

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Wrong.

Fulmer winning % the last 7 years is lower then both Majors and Battle, who were fired.

 

[WA_Vol]

Originally posted by smokedog#3@Dec 17, 2005 11:52 PM
true cotton fulmer is mostly responsible for the talent level.  that is where he is great recruiting.  as for coaching i never really thought he was all that great.  hawkins that went to colorado is a good young coach.  pat hill is another i wouldn't mind seeing wear orange.  norm chow i believe if offered the head coaching job would do a better job.  i think you guys also are counting urban meyer out at florida alittle to early.  he's not charlie weiss,  but he is more than adequate to beat fulmer year in and out.  regardless i don't see tennessee beating georgia for the east anytime soon.  richt has proven he has fulmer's number and as his recruiting classes get better every year,  we will fall further behind.  i honestly next year donot see tennessee finishing any better than 3rd or 4th best in the east and it is just going to get worse in years to come as spurrier and meyer get there people in place.  we need a different coach to get us back to a elite team,  fulmer has gone as far as he is going to. :mf_surrender:

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Agreed.

All these fulmer apologists never want to face reality.

The coaching landscape in the SEC has totally changed since 98 when Fulmer was the second best coach in the league behind Spurrier.

Now, Richt, Spurrier, Tubberville own Fulmer. Miles being a Saban discliple, and Meyer who took a lowly Utah team to the BCS and a win will probably be better coaches as well.

You guys need to stop living in the past. This isnt 98. Its 2005 and Fulmer is a middle of the pack coach in the SEC. Thats the reality.

 

[NCGatorBait]

Originally posted by oklavol@Dec 18, 2005 12:35 AM

Now, Richt, Spurrier, Tubberville own Fulmer.  Miles being a Saban discliple, and Meyer who took a lowly Utah team to the BCS and a win will probably be better coaches as well.

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Miles will never be able to carry Phils Jock bro.

 

[WA_Vol]

Originally posted by NCGatorBait@Dec 18, 2005 12:49 AM
Miles will never be able to carry Phils Jock bro.

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I hope your right. But he's probably gonna finish with a top 10 team this year with a bowl win. Not to shabby.

 

[NCGatorBait]

Originally posted by oklavol@Dec 18, 2005 12:55 AM
I hope your right.  But he's probably gonna finish with a top 10 team this year with a bowl win.  Not to shabby.

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Considering he kept all the coordinators, systems and all, it's not surprising.

 

[RealVol]

Here's what I see to be the difference between LM, UM & CPF. It appears UM is becoming somewhat flexible in his offensive scheme & did change some things late season. He is having a banner recruiting season & w his style players in place & his willingness to change, he may be in a good position to become a real player. Now my opinion of LM is not nearly as glowing. I feel like UT played him at the only time of the year when we could have won. Their squad was in obvious chaois compared to most due to Kitrina and obviously he was not ready for prime time SEC Football. Not being able to see many LSU games this season, I really don't know how much he matured. As far as CPF goes, this upcoming season will reveal if he has the wits to turn a program around or not.

 

[sonofajohn]

Here's what I see to be the difference between LM, UM & CPF. It appears UM is becoming somewhat flexible in his offensive scheme & did change some things late season. He is having a banner recruiting season & w his style players in place & his willingness to change, he may be in a good position to become a real player. Now my opinion of LM is not nearly as glowing. I feel like UT played him at the only time of the year when we could have won. Their squad was in obvious chaois compared to most due to Kitrina and obviously he was not ready for prime time SEC Football. Not being able to see many LSU games this season, I really don't know how much he matured. As far as CPF goes, this upcoming season will reveal if he has the wits to turn a program around or not.

Why this next season? What if it takes Fulmer 2 or 3 seasons to get us back into National Championship contention? A lot of people point to Fulmers past 7 seasons, as showing a decline in his coaching ability (somehow making excuses for 10 win seasons in '03 and '04???) Look at Joe Paterno's decline from '96 to '04 and Penn States re-emergence in '05, and then try to justify your reasons for wanting Phil out of Knoxville.
96: 11-2
97: 9-3
98: 9-3
99: 10-3
00: 5-7
01: 5-6
02: 9-4
03: 3-9
04: 4-7
05: 10-1

 

[cotton]

Wrong.

Not wrong. Reread the post. During their last 7 full years, Fulmer=61 wins, Majors=60, Battle=59.

The numbers, however, are secondary to my post. We have an elite program, coming off back-to-back 10 win seasons before this year. We have an elite coach that gives us a chance to do that or more every year. That is why going 5-6 is such a travesty. That is why losing to a 7-4 bowl bound SC team, the best Vandy team in 23 years (and maybe longer,) and going 1-4 against the top ten is unacceptable. That is why one losing season in 13 years requires wholesale changes on the offensive staff.

Fulmer has set a very high bar in Knoxville. It is his job to keep the program at that standard, but I can live with the fact that one year out of every 13 he won't. The list of coaches that have kept programs at that level for extended periods in this conference is short and composed of the legends of the game. And all of them had "down" years at one time or another.

 

[GreyWolf1129]

Just read the thread.....wanted to throw my nickel in the ring.

RealVol, you hit the nail on the head, hoss. Well spoken, and well-aimed comments.

AllVol, same to you.

As for the comparisons between the "Paterno Slump" of '96-'04, and Fulmer.....there's no comparing those two coaches. Paterno is a coaching legend, and Fulmer is still writing his legacy. If he has one. There's no debating that Fulmer is a great recruiter. And a nice guy. Fact is, he's too nice, and that right there is the biggest part of his problem. Too nice to his players, and too nice to his opponents. If...IF...Fulmer ever learns how to be a hard-ass, both on and off the field, then maybe...just maybe...he can be a great coach.

We expect to win the SEC East at least every other year; win the SEC 1 out of 3; Top 5 and a BCS Bowl 1 out of 4; and a shot at the National Title once every five or six years. Impossible? Tell that to Southern Cal. No, they won't stay on top forever, but they are right now. And when they "slump", it damn sure won't be to 5-6. Why? Recruiting, coaching, and chemistry.

I love UT football. I just hate where the guardians of my beloved Vols have let it wander off to.

With the addition of Richt, Meyer, and Spurrier, the SEC East has become a very tough place to play football. If Fulmer can't take his game to the next level....he'll end up taking it to another school. 'Nuff said.

 

[rockydoc]

Truce, please!! Since CPF will definitely be UT's HC in 2006, let's let the record play out. Even though I feel an early axe would have been best for the football program ( al la Buzz being replaced by Bruce Pearl in BB), I ask the fans on this board to suggest a WL record for next year that would be good enough to retain Fulmer??.......I say 9-2 and with wins over two out of four of the big games (Bama, Georgia, LSU, and Florida). Anything less will not return us to national respectibility.

 

[KentheOrange]

Wrong.

Fulmer winning % the last 7 years is lower then both Majors and Battle, who were fired.

Who said anything about winning %? Reread the post. It is about who owns you and who you own. Fulmer gets a couple of years in my book just for owning Bama. Of course I am probably much older than you.

Do you know why Neyland was hired at UT? He was hired to beat one team. A team that owned UT. That team was Vanderbilt!

 

[GreyWolf1129]

"Why a coach was hired", and why he was (or wasn't) retained is two wholly different matters. Apply that same standard to Ray Goff, Lou Holtz, Bill Curry, et al, and you see my point.

Speaking of which, why was Philip Fulmer hired? Those of us who witnessed that whole scenario play out spent a lot of time trying to figure out what (or who) led to Johnny Majors' sudden fall from grace. But I digress.....

Coach Fulmer has done...in all fairness...a good job with the UT football program. What he hasn't done is (a) consistently win the big games against key rivals; (B) post a win-loss record commensurate with the talent level of the team, and © maintain a well-disciplined program, and team. IMO, © has been the main reason for the team's slump, and Coach Fulmer's spot on the hot seat. He earned the spot...let him work his way off of it.

Bottom line: we're paying a championship salary. Where's our championship team?

 

[Lexvol]

CPF has had some bad breaks (most of which he created) losing Banks and several other blue chippers to team violations. So those high ranking recruiting classes really haven't paid off in the last couple of years.

Because of his admitted lack of attention to detail, the Vols were less than mediocre. All that to say, if you are not paying attention and developing talent, your recruiting classes must always be in the top five.

I think that the Vols will benefit from last years recruiting windfall next year, and that Cut will help CPF regain a detialed focus. I think given Cut and last years class CPF will turn it all around.

 

[RealVol]

I hope CPF isn't responsible for minding the details. The reason I say that, I simply don't believe he's a better than average coach. He is a great administrator, a super recruiter, a great diplomat for UT, and obviously a well known coach. But to rely on his coaching savvy & his "attention to detail" improving our program...please leave that up to a qualified coaching staff.

If CPF has any strengths in football detail, he SHOULD have taken over the OL responsibility years ago.

No Coach, just keep your Staff's feet to the fire & let them expand our offensive system & keep feeding them the excellent talent we usually capture.

 

[sonofajohn]

Just read the thread.....wanted to throw my nickel in the ring.

RealVol, you hit the nail on the head, hoss. Well spoken, and well-aimed comments.

AllVol, same to you.

As for the comparisons between the "Paterno Slump" of '96-'04, and Fulmer.....there's no comparing those two coaches. Paterno is a coaching legend, and Fulmer is still writing his legacy. If he has one. There's no debating that Fulmer is a great recruiter. And a nice guy. Fact is, he's too nice, and that right there is the biggest part of his problem. Too nice to his players, and too nice to his opponents. If...IF...Fulmer ever learns how to be a hard-ass, both on and off the field, then maybe...just maybe...he can be a great coach.

We expect to win the SEC East at least every other year; win the SEC 1 out of 3; Top 5 and a BCS Bowl 1 out of 4; and a shot at the National Title once every five or six years. Impossible? Tell that to Southern Cal. No, they won't stay on top forever, but they are right now. And when they "slump", it damn sure won't be to 5-6. Why? Recruiting, coaching, and chemistry.

I love UT football. I just hate where the guardians of my beloved Vols have let it wander off to.

With the addition of Richt, Meyer, and Spurrier, the SEC East has become a very tough place to play football. If Fulmer can't take his game to the next level....he'll end up taking it to another school. 'Nuff said.

USC
1998: 8-4
1999: 6-5
2000: 5-6

Please, do a little bit of research at least before posting some of this garbage. Also, winning the SEC 1 out of eveery 3 years, and a shot at the National Championship ever 5 years??? Tennessee has been playing football for over 100 years, we have at most 5 National Championships, 2 AP. That is 1 every 20 to 33 years. Notre Dame, OU, Bama, Miami, and Southern Cal have 8,7,6,5, and 5 respectively...so, not even once every 10 years for the teams with the most national championships! Realistically, UT should win a national championship once every 15-35 years. " 'Nuff said."

 

[sonofajohn]

Truce, please!! Since CPF will definitely be UT's HC in 2006, let's let the record play out. Even though I feel an early axe would have been best for the football program ( al la Buzz being replaced by Bruce Pearl in BB), I ask the fans on this board to suggest a WL record for next year that would be good enough to retain Fulmer??.......I say 9-2 and with wins over two out of four of the big games (Bama, Georgia, LSU, and Florida). Anything less will not return us to national respectibility.

Yes, please compare Buzz Peterson to Phil Fulmer...people on this post are either seriously misinformed as to college football history, are spoiled by the success of the 90s (attributed to Fulmer by the way,) or are truly fair weather fans.

 

[Lexvol]

USC
1998: 8-4
1999: 6-5
2000: 5-6

Please, do a little bit of research at least before posting some of this garbage. Also, winning the SEC 1 out of eveery 3 years, and a shot at the National Championship ever 5 years??? Tennessee has been playing football for over 100 years, we have at most 5 National Championships, 2 AP. That is 1 every 20 to 33 years. Notre Dame, OU, Bama, Miami, and Southern Cal have 8,7,6,5, and 5 respectively...so, not even once every 10 years for the teams with the most national championships! Realistically, UT should win a national championship once every 15-35 years. " 'Nuff said."

So the Vols are simply bound by history. There is no use in trying. The NC's will come along once in a blue moon? This is not like you SOJ. You can do better than that.

How would a CFO be treated if he walked in to the board room and explained bad numbers this way: "We should only strive to be the best at what we do every now and then. I just don't see how you can justify competing for a greater market share all of the time".

Realistically, if you are paying your coach over two million a year, and are considered among the experts to be a upper echelon program, you should at least be in a BCS bowl every 3 years.

 

[sonofajohn]

So the Vols are simply bound by history. There is no use in trying. The NC's will come along once in a blue moon? This is not like you SOJ. You can do better than that.

How would a CFO be treated if he walked in to the board room and explained bad numbers this way: "We should only strive to be the best at what we do every now and then. I just don't see how you can justify competing for a greater market share all of the time".

Realistically, if you are paying your coach over two million a year, and are considered among the experts to be a upper echelon program, you should at least be in a BCS bowl every 3 years.

No, realistically, we should not be in a BCS bowl every 3 years. Those same experts also consider Bama, Auburn, Florida, Georgia, and LSU to be upper echelon programs. Therefore, winning the SEC once every six years (1 year for Bama, 1 for Auburn, etc.,) would be fitting for the experts. And, guess what. Fulmer has 2 SEC championships in 12 years, funny how that works out.

 

[Vol67]

Real I guess you came over here to spread your garbage

 

[Lexvol]

Same experts consider GA, and Fla to be upper echelon. Therefore every three years is about right. It is also possible to get more than one team from a conference into the BCS so your logic is flawed.

UT has pissed away a golden opportunity for a third SEC championship in that same time frame. That would blow your history out of the water as well.

But, hey, if you are content to let history determine the future so be it. I simply have a more diadactic view of history. It occurs in a straight line, so it doesn't have to be circular.

 

[sonofajohn]

Same experts consider GA, and Fla to be upper echelon. Therefore every three years is about right. It is also possible to get more than one team from a conference into the BCS so your logic is flawed.

UT has pissed away a golden opportunity for a third SEC championship in that same time frame. That would blow your history out of the water as well.

But, hey, if you are content to let history determine the future so be it. I simply have a more diadactic view of history. It occurs in a straight line, so it doesn't have to be circular.

It wouldn't because they did piss that chance away. Anything more than 1 SEC championship every 6 years and 1 national championship every 15-35 years is a bonus for me. I hope every year that UT will go undefeated and win the national championship, but when things go bad, I don't go for the jugular of the 2nd winningest coach in college football. Let Fulmer have his 5-6 season, hell, let him have two of them. He is the best UT coach since Neyland, in every quantitative category and in any qualitative aspects you ask any so called college football experts about. The rest of you Vol fans need to stop whining, and understand that you can't always have immediate gratification.

 

[Lexvol]

It wouldn't because they did piss that chance away. Anything more than 1 SEC championship every 6 years and 1 national championship every 15-35 years is a bonus for me. I hope every year that UT will go undefeated and win the national championship, but when things go bad, I don't go for the jugular of the 2nd winningest coach in college football. Let Fulmer have his 5-6 season, hell, let him have two of them. He is the best UT coach since Neyland, in every quantitative category and in any qualitative aspects you ask any so called college football experts about. The rest of you Vol fans need to stop whining, and understand that you can't always have immediate gratification.

If a 5-6 year is good enough for you, I will respect your opinion. It will remain unacceptable in my view, and as long as you are on this board you will read my opinion. Just because someone is the best since, doesn't mean he will always be the best, and if he is making the dough he should be held to a higher standard than 5-6.

 

[cotton]

So the Vols are simply bound by history. There is no use in trying. The NC's will come along once in a blue moon? This is not like you SOJ. You can do better than that.

How would a CFO be treated if he walked in to the board room and explained bad numbers this way: "We should only strive to be the best at what we do every now and then. I just don't see how you can justify competing for a greater market share all of the time".

Realistically, if you are paying your coach over two million a year, and are considered among the experts to be a upper echelon program, you should at least be in a BCS bowl every 3 years.

So what would you suggest we do with that $2 million a year coach? In 2003 (the last year for which I could find information,) Fulmer's contract was right in line with that of the other coaches at top tier programs, including Saban, Stoops, Carr, Brown, Tressel, Snyder, Bowden, Richt, Ferentz :question: , Mason :dunno: , Tubberville, Smith, Beamer, and Alvarez. He is just above such football powerhouses as Purdue, Maryland, and Missouri.

SOURCE: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/writ...contracts.data/

Bottom line is that the head coach at UT SHOULD be paid similarly to the upper tier coaches because it is an upper tier job. And the guy we've got has gone 128-37, even with this season's debacle, doing it. I don't think a CEO would have a lot of trouble explaining those numbers to his board.

No, we are not going to play for the NC every year. But in Fulmer's tenure, we have won it once, lost it once (97-98,) and just missed playing for it a third time. We are not going to make the BCS every year, and with the newly formed ACC I don't think Miami or Florida State are going to anymore either. But we go into almost every season having a realistic chance of making it. I want to play for all the marbles as much as anybody, but those results, even taken with one losing season, are pretty successful.