Can / will Fulmer turn it around...

[RealVol]

Vol67

If you are responding to my band (a supposed 1 week band) from the rainbow dreamers at VT then you could be right.

FACT is UT's offense FINALLY did exactly what I forecast UT's offense was headed for...rock bottom. Well actucally I never used those words. Now I know it takes some longer than others to see the nightime coming, but usually it's not the CEO of the Company along with 100,000 orange blinded followers not to suspect something. I know maybe you and others at VT were disappointed UT & Staff weren't maintained & a decent raise issued to all. But I consider myself a bit more real.

That said, it is now solely CPF's responsibility to turn our offense around. And yes if we still look like a crappy coached team running the same old outdated 8 plays, I will continue to voice my opinion.

 

[sonofajohn]

So what would you suggest we do with that $2 million a year coach? In 2003 (the last year for which I could find information,) Fulmer's contract was right in line with that of the other coaches at top tier programs, including Saban, Stoops, Carr, Brown, Tressel, Snyder, Bowden, Richt, Ferentz :question: , Mason :dunno: , Tubberville, Smith, Beamer, and Alvarez. He is just above such football powerhouses as Purdue, Maryland, and Missouri.

SOURCE: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/writ...contracts.data/

Bottom line is that the head coach at UT SHOULD be paid similarly to the upper tier coaches because it is an upper tier job. And the guy we've got has gone 128-37, even with this season's debacle, doing it. I don't think a CEO would have a lot of trouble explaining those numbers to his board.

No, we are not going to play for the NC every year. But in Fulmer's tenure, we have won it once, lost it once (97-98,) and just missed playing for it a third time. We are not going to make the BCS every year, and with the newly formed ACC I don't think Miami or Florida State are going to anymore either. But we go into almost every season having a realistic chance of making it. I want to play for all the marbles as much as anybody, but those results, even taken with one losing season, are pretty successful.

Careful, they will suggest that those other 13 coaches get fired if they don't win the National Championship once every 5 years. Which means that most likely, 8-10 of them would be fired every 5 years, regardless of how many wins they have, previous championships, etc. UT is forming the super race, and if you can't cut it, you had better jump in the train car and take a ride out to the camps. Puts a whole new spin to "hit the showers."

 

[smokedog#3]

sono i have to disagree. fulmer has won nothing since 98. his team in 99,00, 01 should have won the sec and didn't. fulmer has let the program slide and now he is trying to do something about it. every since 01 our offense has been below average and yes even last year in a sub par sec besides auburn and georgia. fulmer is a average coach at best and should have been replaced this year for his neglect of the team. next year we will have atleast 4 loses and he should get canned, but for some reason they will probably keep him around for another year to further put us in a hole. in my opinion if he doesn't win 9 games next year they should send him packing. i really don't think he can do it either. after a season like this he will have to win his offensive players back and i don't see it happening. and why should they buy into what he is trying to sell. the offense is boring, and terrible to watch. i've said it before cut has his work cut out for him. i agree with oklavol in 98 he was maybe the 2nd best coach in the sec, now he's lucky to be 4th in the east. we could take a lesson from those sec teams. under your deal you would suggest terry bowden should still be at auburn and donovan should be at georgia. bowden undeafeated season, donovan a better than average record. i think both those teams are better off now and we will be to when phil is gone. your living in the past it is time to look at the future and fulmer is not the future of tennessee football.

 

[sonofajohn]

sono i have to disagree. fulmer has won nothing since 98. his team in 99,00, 01 should have won the sec and didn't. fulmer has let the program slide and now he is trying to do something about it. every since 01 our offense has been below average and yes even last year in a sub par sec besides auburn and georgia. fulmer is a average coach at best and should have been replaced this year for his neglect of the team. next year we will have atleast 4 loses and he should get canned, but for some reason they will probably keep him around for another year to further put us in a hole. in my opinion if he doesn't win 9 games next year they should send him packing. i really don't think he can do it either. after a season like this he will have to win his offensive players back and i don't see it happening. and why should they buy into what he is trying to sell. the offense is boring, and terrible to watch. i've said it before cut has his work cut out for him. i agree with oklavol in 98 he was maybe the 2nd best coach in the sec, now he's lucky to be 4th in the east. we could take a lesson from those sec teams. under your deal you would suggest terry bowden should still be at auburn and donovan should be at georgia. bowden undeafeated season, donovan a better than average record. i think both those teams are better off now and we will be to when phil is gone. your living in the past it is time to look at the future and fulmer is not the future of tennessee football.

The 2004 offense was more productive than the 2001 offense, in points scored and yards gained. Also, "for some reason they will probably keep him around..." That reason is obvious, the man can coach. Some of the best teams in football history have had boring and hard to watch offenses...their focus is not to entertain you, it is to win ball games. I just have a question, for everyone who wants Fulmer gone, how old are you and what is your affiliation with UT? I am very interested to see the results.

 

[Lexvol]

So what would you suggest we do with that $2 million a year coach? In 2003 (the last year for which I could find information,) Fulmer's contract was right in line with that of the other coaches at top tier programs, including Saban, Stoops, Carr, Brown, Tressel, Snyder, Bowden, Richt, Ferentz :question: , Mason :dunno: , Tubberville, Smith, Beamer, and Alvarez. He is just above such football powerhouses as Purdue, Maryland, and Missouri.

SOURCE: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/writ...contracts.data/

Bottom line is that the head coach at UT SHOULD be paid similarly to the upper tier coaches because it is an upper tier job. And the guy we've got has gone 128-37, even with this season's debacle, doing it. I don't think a CEO would have a lot of trouble explaining those numbers to his board.

No, we are not going to play for the NC every year. But in Fulmer's tenure, we have won it once, lost it once (97-98,) and just missed playing for it a third time. We are not going to make the BCS every year, and with the newly formed ACC I don't think Miami or Florida State are going to anymore either. But we go into almost every season having a realistic chance of making it. I want to play for all the marbles as much as anybody, but those results, even taken with one losing season, are pretty successful.

If CPF is not going to earn it, I suggest UT finds someone that will.

 

[Lexvol]

The 2004 offense was more productive than the 2001 offense, in points scored and yards gained. Also, "for some reason they will probably keep him around..." That reason is obvious, the man can coach. Some of the best teams in football history have had boring and hard to watch offenses...their focus is not to entertain you, it is to win ball games. I just have a question, for everyone who wants Fulmer gone, how old are you and what is your affiliation with UT? I am very interested to see the results.

I would say that last year, they were hard to watch and didn't win ball games.

 

[sonofajohn]

I would say that last year, they were hard to watch and didn't win ball games.

Well, nobody is trying to sugarcoat this past season. Fulmer had a bad season. However, that doesn't mean you get rid of Fulmer. He has had the most successful tenure of any UT coach since Neyland...and it is highly likely, if he wins another National Championship, he will be more successful than Neyland, quantitatively speaking of course.

 

[rockydoc]

Well, nobody is trying to sugarcoat this past season. Fulmer had a bad season. However, that doesn't mean you get rid of Fulmer. He has had the most successful tenure of any UT coach since Neyland...and it is highly likely, if he wins another National Championship, he will be more successful than Neyland, quantitatively speaking of course.

Has anyone noticed how these Fulmer defenders like "son of a ........." always pop up to the defense of his sorry record the last few years on every Internet board out in cyberspace?? They always use fuzzy logic to explain away 5-6 records, poor disipline and downward trends in the program?

My theory is they are hired Spin-Doctors just like the politicians use. (Has anyone every noticed after a Presidental debate the Spinners on both sides crow about how great their man did irregardless of how crappy their candidate did).

 

[sonofajohn]

Has anyone noticed how these Fulmer defenders like "son of a ........." always pop up to the defense of his sorry record the last few years on every Internet board out in cyberspace?? They always use fuzzy logic to explain away 5-6 records, poor disipline and downward trends in the program?

My theory is they are hired Spin-Doctors just like the politicians use. (Has anyone every noticed after a Presidental debate the Spinners on both sides crow about how great their man did irregardless of how crappy their candidate did).

Could you show me 'downward trend' prior to 2005, please? I was under the impression that we went 10-3 in 2003 and 2004. I guess that is just 'fuzzy logic' on my part. What I enjoy more is how the Fulmer bashers will never reply when us defenders ask how old they are and how they are affiliated with the university.

 

[cotton]

Has anyone noticed how these Fulmer defenders like "son of a ........." always pop up to the defense of his sorry record the last few years on every Internet board out in cyberspace?? They always use fuzzy logic to explain away 5-6 records, poor disipline and downward trends in the program?

My theory is they are hired Spin-Doctors just like the politicians use. (Has anyone every noticed after a Presidental debate the Spinners on both sides crow about how great their man did irregardless of how crappy their candidate did).

Well, I've posted alot of information similar to son, and I know I'm not getting any dough for it. Who is paying everyone else? Fulmer? I hope it wasn't Buzz or Sanders.

As for fuzzy logic, what's so fuzzy about it? Best I can figure, we have gone 11-2, 8-5, 10-3, 10-3, 5-6 over the last 5 seasons. That is a bad year, not a downward trend. We've won the east 3 times (one shared) in that span. Fuzzy logic is what causes people to call for a coach's head due to one bad season.

 

[allvol]

Thanks for strengthening my point. Few of those mentioned above were dismissed or fired by Fulmer. Almost all were offered bigger / better jobs at other schools.

Marmie to UCLA
Jacob Burney to Cleveland Browns
Lovie Smith to Ohio State
Kevin Ramsey to ? now C-N.
David Cutcliff to Ole Miss
Woody McCorvey followed Cut to Ole Miss
Mark Bradley to ?
Steve Marshall to UCLA
Rodney Gardner to Georgia
Mike Barry to NC State
Kippy Brown to NY Jets

I seriously wonder how many jobs has RS, Pat Washington & JRS seriously have been approached about. To me that's a direct reflection of how inept, inefficient, stagnant, predictable & lazy our offense has become. Hell, it often looks like our players are going to get an enema rather than line up for the next play. In my opinion some tweaking & expansion within the coaching staff should have been made about 4-5 years ago. Preferrably I would like to have seen a progressive, innovative and "speed" thinking OC come in to develop and use all the speed we recruit. I can remember when UT was known as W. R. U.

As with everything posted here, everyone has their opinion. Quite simply mine is this: if Fulmer is such a sharp coach, why did he wait so long to make long overdue changes on offense.

No, you said that Fulmer inherited the coaching staff and program.... I was noting that by the time the Vols had the best 4-year run in school history, the entire coaching staff makeup was either a new hire by Fulmer or promoted from within. Fulmer has proven in the past that he can identify and hire the best coaches. He is still the same coach that assembled the coaching staff that won 45 games in a 4 year span, capped off by 2 SEC Championships and 1 national championship.

If a head coach has to fire an assistant, its because that assistant wasn't doing his job.... it also means the hc may have made poor judgement in hiring the assistant in the first place. The list of coaches that have left for other jobs shows that Fulmer knows how to find and hire talented coaches. It does not prove your point.

Don't know what happened to Pat Washington, but he coached some of the all-time leading receivers at Tennessee. His resume is quite lengthy. Maybe he got to comfy in his job and let things slip? But I think Fulmer may have given him the benefit of the doubt because of what he had accomplished at UT up until the past few seasons. He'll probably get a job faster than the other coaches let go because of his resume.

Jimmy Ray Stevens was not hired until 2002. He coached some pretty good offensive lines while he was at Florida under Steve Spurrier. However, I don't think his coaching style ever fit with what Fulmer liked to do. That is why he is now gone. He'll get a job too. His resume while at Florida is too good.

The one coach that should not have been elevated so quickly in 1999 was Randy Sanders. He also should have been gone after 2003. This is where I think Fulmer was blinded by friendship and loyalty. Don't get me wrong, Sanders was a great position coach. He 7 of the top 10 Vols all-time leading rushers while he was the running backs coach. He'll get a position coaching job too. Bank on it. However, he's getting paid by UT until July, so I expect him to take some time off before he gets another job.

 

[rockydoc]

Could you show me 'downward trend' prior to 2005, please? I was under the impression that we went 10-3 in 2003 and 2004. I guess that is just 'fuzzy logic' on my part. What I enjoy more is how the Fulmer bashers will never reply when us defenders ask how old they are and how they are affiliated with the university.

I graduated from UTK in 1972. UT-Memphis in 1976. But this has nothing to do with being a UT fan. I have a son that wasn't able to go to UT( or college )who is a bigger Vol fan than me or most of the people on this board. Pedigree or age has nothing to with being a fan of a school or insight into what is wrong with the current football program. You should demand excellence and we have not been getting it since 1998. You don't have to have a PhD to see this and you don't have to be a UT graduate or over 21 to express your opinion on this board!

 

[allvol]

FULMER HAS LOST MORE GAMES IN THE LAST 7 YEARS THEN BOTH MAJORS AND BATTLE DID THEIR LAST 7 YEARS. THEY WERE BOTH FIRED.

Very faulty logic. Fulmer has more wins than the gentlemen you mentioned over each of them's final 7 years. And why 7 years? Is it because if you go back further, Fulmer's 13-0 national championship season is added? If you go much shorter, then Battle's first couple of season's, which his best, make his record look terrible? Is it because Fulmer has two 10-win seasons out of his last 3?

Majors only had 2 seasons in his last 7 with 10 or more wins. He also had 3 ties during that time span. Johnny used to call ties "kissing your sister"... and thus not a win. He was also NOT fired for his winning percentage. He also did not win the national championship while at Tennessee. His record during his last 7 years ('86-92) was 56-22-3

Same for Bill Battle, he repeatedly lost to the Vols biggest rival, Alabama and strung together 3 bad seasons in a row leading up to his firing. Not only did Battle never win the national championship, he never won the SEC while head coach at UT. His 7 year (and total) record at UT was 59-22-2.


Fulmer has a 7 year record of 61-26 that includes 3 seasons with 10 wins or more and finished atop the Eastern Division 3 times.

 

[sonofajohn]

I graduated from UTK in 1972. UT-Memphis in 1976. But this has nothing to do with being a UT fan. I have a son that wasn't able to go to UT( or college )who is a bigger Vol fan than me or most of the people on this board. Pedigree or age has nothing to with being a fan of a school or insight into what is wrong with the current football program. You should demand excellence and we have not been getting it since 1998. You don't have to have a PhD to see this and you don't have to be a UT graduate or over 21 to express your opinion on this board!

Then in your opinion, prior to 1998 we hadn't been getting excellence since 1951! I guess 11-2, 10-3, and 10-3 are not examples of recent excellence. If you and your son cannot comprehend that we are doing very well post 1998, then maybe there is a good reason that your son doesn't have enough mental capacity to get into any college and that you don't have the knowledge to teach him anything.

Using your logic, if USC loses in the Rose Bowl, they should fire Pete Carroll, because its just not excellent.

 

[rockydoc]

Then in your opinion, prior to 1998 we hadn't been getting excellence since 1951! I guess 11-2, 10-3, and 10-3 are not examples of recent excellence. If you and your son cannot comprehend that we are doing very well post 1998, then maybe there is a good reason that your son doesn't have enough mental capacity to get into any college and that you don't have the knowledge to teach him anything.

Using your logic, if USC loses in the Rose Bowl, they should fire Pete Carroll, because its just not excellent.

I do remember Dickey taking a moribund program and winning two SEC championships in 6 years when I was a student. (CPF has 2 in thirteen years). Dickey also came within one missed short field goal by Karl Kremser of winning a National Championship in 1967.

Fulmer took over a strong program and delivered a NC (with some fortunate breaks in 98). Except for beating a downtrodden Bama program not much to show for since then. Certainly no championships. By the way there is no such thing as winning the SEC East. Official records show simply a game played. No trophies etc.
Fulmer himself said anything short of championships is not acceptable at UT. I just agree.

 

[sonofajohn]

I do remember Dickey taking a moribund program and winning two SEC championships in 6 years when I was a student. (CPF has 2 in thirteen years). Dickey also came within one missed short field goal by Karl Kremser of winning a National Championship in 1967.

Fulmer took over a strong program and delivered a NC (with some fortunate breaks in 98). Except for beating a downtrodden Bama program not much to show for since then. Certainly no championships. By the way there is no such thing as winning the SEC East. Official records show simply a game played. No trophies etc.
Fulmer himself said anything short of championships is not acceptable at UT. I just agree.

Dickey was good...no national championship though. Compare Neyland to Fulmer. Fulmer has 13 years in the SEC, 2 SEC championships, 1 National Championship. Neyland had 15 years in the SEC, 4 SEC championships (2 tied for though because there were no conference championship games then,) and 1 AP national championship. In 1947 and 1948 Neyland had his own "downward trend" going 5-5 and 4-4-2 (which is officially a losing record,) good thing the university had faith in him, 3 years later he won the national championship!

 

[smokedog#3]

downward trend no sec championships since 98. he can will 10 games every year for the next ten years. unless he wins the sec sometime this decade he's pretty much useless. that is the goal of every sec team. even coming from fulmer's mouth. he just can't deliever.

 

[sonofajohn]

downward trend no sec championships since 98. he can will 10 games every year for the next ten years. unless he wins the sec sometime this decade he's pretty much useless. that is the goal of every sec team. even coming from fulmer's mouth. he just can't deliever.

General Neyland won an outright SEC championship twice in 15 years...works out to one about every seven and a half years...and there were only 9 teams in the SEC then.

 

[rockydoc]

Dickey was good...no national championship though. Compare Neyland to Fulmer. Fulmer has 13 years in the SEC, 2 SEC championships, 1 National Championship. Neyland had 15 years in the SEC, 4 SEC championships (2 tied for though because there were no conference championship games then,) and 1 AP national championship. In 1947 and 1948 Neyland had his own "downward trend" going 5-5 and 4-4-2 (which is officially a losing record,) good thing the university had faith in him, 3 years later he won the national championship!

You win Grandpa. I'm not old enough to be alive in those postwar years. I do know enough about UT football history to know it is blasphemy to use Fulmer and Neyland in the same breath especially after a 5-6 year.

I'm signing off. Got to work tomorrow. You can pick up you check from Coach Fulmer in the AM. :gun:

 

[CSpindizzy]

I'm signing off. Got to work tomorrow. You can pick up you check from Coach Fulmer in the AM.

:lolabove: :lolabove: :lolabove:
Good call.....

 

[WA_Vol]

Very faulty logic. Fulmer has more wins than the gentlemen you mentioned over each of them's final 7 years. And why 7 years? Is it because if you go back further, Fulmer's 13-0 national championship season is added? If you go much shorter, then Battle's first couple of season's, which his best, make his record look terrible? Is it because Fulmer has two 10-win seasons out of his last 3?

Majors only had 2 seasons in his last 7 with 10 or more wins. He also had 3 ties during that time span. Johnny used to call ties "kissing your sister"... and thus not a win. He was also NOT fired for his winning percentage. He also did not win the national championship while at Tennessee. His record during his last 7 years ('86-92) was 56-22-3

Same for Bill Battle, he repeatedly lost to the Vols biggest rival, Alabama and strung together 3 bad seasons in a row leading up to his firing. Not only did Battle never win the national championship, he never won the SEC while head coach at UT. His 7 year (and total) record at UT was 59-22-2.
Fulmer has a 7 year record of 61-26 that includes 3 seasons with 10 wins or more and finished atop the Eastern Division 3 times.

Over the last 7 years of their programs, Bill Battle and Johnny Majors both have a higher winning % then Fulmer.

True they didnt play the same number of games, but the % they won, was more then the % Fulmer won.

You say Majors was not fired for his winning %. Maybe thats true, but everyone I knew at the time was glad he was gone, and that was because of his winning %.

Over the last 7 years, Fulmer hasnt won an SEC championship game either, hasnt been to a BCS game, and was embaressed by 2 ACC teams in 2 different Peach Bowls.

 

[sonofajohn]

You win Grandpa. I'm not old enough to be alive in those postwar years. I do know enough about UT football history to know it is blasphemy to use Fulmer and Neyland in the same breath especially after a 5-6 year.

I'm signing off. Got to work tomorrow. You can pick up you check from Coach Fulmer in the AM. :gun:

Blasphemy??? Fulmer has 1 .500 or below year, Neyland has 2 in a row, yet using those statistics in comparing the two coaches is blasphemy?

"Theory first, facts second?"--Daniel Flynn

 

[WA_Vol]

sono i have to disagree. fulmer has won nothing since 98. his team in 99,00, 01 should have won the sec and didn't. fulmer has let the program slide and now he is trying to do something about it. every since 01 our offense has been below average and yes even last year in a sub par sec besides auburn and georgia. fulmer is a average coach at best and should have been replaced this year for his neglect of the team. next year we will have atleast 4 loses and he should get canned, but for some reason they will probably keep him around for another year to further put us in a hole. in my opinion if he doesn't win 9 games next year they should send him packing. i really don't think he can do it either. after a season like this he will have to win his offensive players back and i don't see it happening. and why should they buy into what he is trying to sell. the offense is boring, and terrible to watch. i've said it before cut has his work cut out for him. i agree with oklavol in 98 he was maybe the 2nd best coach in the sec, now he's lucky to be 4th in the east. we could take a lesson from those sec teams. under your deal you would suggest terry bowden should still be at auburn and donovan should be at georgia. bowden undeafeated season, donovan a better than average record. i think both those teams are better off now and we will be to when phil is gone. your living in the past it is time to look at the future and fulmer is not the future of tennessee football.

Preach it brother.

 

[cotton]

Over the last 7 years, Fulmer hasnt won an SEC championship game either, hasnt been to a BCS game, and was embaressed by 2 ACC teams in 2 different Peach Bowls.

He also trounced Big10 and Big12 opponents in bowl games, but I guess that doesn't matter. Only the negatives matter. We've dominated Bama, but no matter, they were down. We've broken the Florida curse, but it's not important because Georgia has had success against us. We won the east last year with a third string quarterback, but that doesn't count, because a 13-0 Auburn team beat us in a competitive championship game.

Are some of you actually calling for the second winningest coach in the country to be fired so we can go get the guy from Boise St? I don't understand this argument. 5-6 sucks. Changes had to be made and they were. Why weren't they made before? Because 10-3 doesn't suck. North Carolina's Women's soccer team might be able to win conference and national titles every year, but it ain't gonna happen in SEC football.

 

[WA_Vol]

He also trounced Big10 and Big12 opponents in bowl games, but I guess that doesn't matter. Only the negatives matter. We've dominated Bama, but no matter, they were down. We've broken the Florida curse, but it's not important because Georgia has had success against us. We won the east last year with a third string quarterback, but that doesn't count, because a 13-0 Auburn team beat us in a competitive championship game.

Are some of you actually calling for the second winningest coach in the country to be fired so we can go get the guy from Boise St? I don't understand this argument. 5-6 sucks. Changes had to be made and they were. Why weren't they made before? Because 10-3 doesn't suck. North Carolina's Women's soccer team might be able to win conference and national titles every year, but it ain't gonna happen in SEC football.

This thread is sorely in need of some facts. Here are Fulmer's, Battle's, and Major's records over their last 7 years and here is where I got the stats. Note Fulmers record up to Nov 8 when the article was published was 59-25. (since Nov 8, UT went 2-1).

http://tennessee.scout.com/2/463393.html


Phil Fulmer 61-26 (1999-2005) .701 winning %

Bill Battle 59-22-2 (1970-1976) .728 winning %

Johnny Majors 60-20-5 (1986-1992) .750 winning %

Majors won 3 sec championships and was 5-1 in bowl games during this time. Including wins in 2 sugar bowls and a cotton bowl.

Fulmer is 2-6 in the post season, with 2 losses in SEC title games and losses in 2 peach bowls to 2 acc teams by a total of 57-17.

Fulmer has the worst record of the 3 and both Bill Battle and Majors were fired.

All of this was thoroughly discussed in a thread a few months ago, but we'll rehash it again.