CJHs practical approach to recruiting

[keenobserver]

I've followed recruiting for a long time and I wanted to make a few general observations about CJHs approach and hear everyone's thoughts.

It seems like very few coaches (at least the ones who have been here the last 15 years) devote as much attention to targeting specific team need as this staff. I think to most of us who aren't privy to all the interworkings of recruiting, this has always seemed like the practical approach, but most staffs that we've had seemed to value the best players available, regardless of position.

In other words, I don't ever remember a recruiting class that we've signed that the overwhelming majority of us would have agreed that the ones signed were exactly areas of need for the program more than this season.

My question is this practical, obvious approach to recruiting a result of CJHs philosophy and should we expect it every season? If so, I hope so. OR is it a result of us getting hit hard by the portal a few years back and just trying to be pragmatic in how we build depth and later on we'll go after the best players available regardless of position?

I love this recruiting class and I hope I've framed this in a way that isn't critcal, but instead complimentary.

If anything, I believe this approach more closely illuminates previous staffs inadequacies.

 

[Jackcrevol]

I've followed recruiting for a long time and I wanted to make a few general observations about CJHs approach and hear everyone's thoughts.

It seems like very few coaches (at least the ones who have been here the last 15 years) devote as much attention to targeting specific team need as this staff. I think to most of us who aren't privy to all the interworkings of recruiting, this has always seemed like the practical approach, but most staffs that we've had seemed to value the best players available, regardless of position.

In other words, I don't ever remember a recruiting class that we've signed that the overwhelming majority of us would have agreed that the ones signed were exactly areas of need for the program more than this season.

My question is this practical, obvious approach to recruiting a result of CJHs philosophy and should we expect it every season? If so, I hope so. OR is it a result of us getting hit hard by the portal a few years back and just trying to be pragmatic in how we build depth and later on we'll go after the best players available regardless of position?

I love this recruiting class and I hope I've framed this in a way that isn't critcal, but instead complimentary.

If anything, I believe this approach more closely illuminates previous staffs inadequacies.

I think some staffs are tampering. Its obvs by how kids who are immediately declaring then already knowing where they're going. Its a two edged sword.

 

[Ron Swanson]

I've followed recruiting for a long time and I wanted to make a few general observations about CJHs approach and hear everyone's thoughts.

It seems like very few coaches (at least the ones who have been here the last 15 years) devote as much attention to targeting specific team need as this staff. I think to most of us who aren't privy to all the interworkings of recruiting, this has always seemed like the practical approach, but most staffs that we've had seemed to value the best players available, regardless of position.

In other words, I don't ever remember a recruiting class that we've signed that the overwhelming majority of us would have agreed that the ones signed were exactly areas of need for the program more than this season.

My question is this practical, obvious approach to recruiting a result of CJHs philosophy and should we expect it every season? If so, I hope so. OR is it a result of us getting hit hard by the portal a few years back and just trying to be pragmatic in how we build depth and later on we'll go after the best players available regardless of position?

I love this recruiting class and I hope I've framed this in a way that isn't critcal, but instead complimentary.

If anything, I believe this approach more closely illuminates previous staffs inadequacies.

I agree, I really like the way this staff recruits. I also like how they get players from the portal - quietly. Keeps us on our toes and guessing and then hit with nice surprises.

I hope Heupel continues to recruit this way, wins several championships, and sticks around a long time.

 

[keenobserver]

I think some staffs are tampering. Its obvs by how kids who are immediately declaring then already knowing where they're going. Its a two edged sword.

Yep. Rerecruiting the existing players you feel are important for the future, while "trimming the fat" every year seems as important, if not more, than signing classes.

 

[Devo182]

Maybe they do...maybe they don't.

Jmo but I think (to some degree) fans see things that are just coincidental.

For example, if you have an immediate need for OTs or other developmental positions and happen to land a few good OTs...was that on purpose to fill your need for an SEC OT in just 9 months?

Recruiting HS players is as much about anticipating future needs than filling immediate needs (outside of a few positions freshmen can have immediate impacts).


*of course for transfers and JUCOs it's a different story*

 

[VolFanNC09]

It’s interesting because we have a ton of DBs and safeties now. We will need to cut loose 3-4 to be balanced. It is obvious he targeted upgrading that position though. I am really happy with the LBs we got as well. The defense recruiting really was great this class.

 

[keenobserver]

Maybe they do...maybe they don't.

Jmo but I think (to some degree) fans see things that are just coincidental.

For example, if you have an immediate need for OTs or other developmental positions and happen to land a few good OTs...was that on purpose to fill your need for an SEC OT in just 9 months?

Recruiting HS players is as much about anticipating future needs than filling immediate needs (outside of a few positions freshmen can have immediate impacts).


*of course for transfers and JUCOs it's a different story*

Solid points there.

I think our staff is pleased with our depth at RB, WR, IOL, and pretty much at DT. They added a few at those spots, but it was obvious ILB, Edge, and DB were the spots of emphasis this cycle. We signed 1 great prep TE and a potential steal in the portal. I won't be surprised if we don't find one more, especially if Warren leaves after the bowl.

I believe it's possible we could have been higher at the conclusion of the rankings, but CJH prioritized team needs. Even if it's just a coincidence, I'm excited to see how this works to our advantage in the next few years.

 

[savannahfan]

I've followed recruiting for a long time and I wanted to make a few general observations about CJHs approach and hear everyone's thoughts.

It seems like very few coaches (at least the ones who have been here the last 15 years) devote as much attention to targeting specific team need as this staff. I think to most of us who aren't privy to all the interworkings of recruiting, this has always seemed like the practical approach, but most staffs that we've had seemed to value the best players available, regardless of position.

In other words, I don't ever remember a recruiting class that we've signed that the overwhelming majority of us would have agreed that the ones signed were exactly areas of need for the program more than this season.

My question is this practical, obvious approach to recruiting a result of CJHs philosophy and should we expect it every season? If so, I hope so. OR is it a result of us getting hit hard by the portal a few years back and just trying to be pragmatic in how we build depth and later on we'll go after the best players available regardless of position?

I love this recruiting class and I hope I've framed this in a way that isn't critcal, but instead complimentary.

If anything, I believe this approach more closely illuminates previous staffs inadequacies.

I personal expect this to be the norm. I don't think this staff will become "star struck" unless the person of perceived need happens to be a 5* and then not struck. I expect they will have a second 5* doesn't work out.

 

[sjt18]

I've followed recruiting for a long time and I wanted to make a few general observations about CJHs approach and hear everyone's thoughts.

It seems like very few coaches (at least the ones who have been here the last 15 years) devote as much attention to targeting specific team need as this staff. I think to most of us who aren't privy to all the interworkings of recruiting, this has always seemed like the practical approach, but most staffs that we've had seemed to value the best players available, regardless of position.

In other words, I don't ever remember a recruiting class that we've signed that the overwhelming majority of us would have agreed that the ones signed were exactly areas of need for the program more than this season.

My question is this practical, obvious approach to recruiting a result of CJHs philosophy and should we expect it every season? If so, I hope so. OR is it a result of us getting hit hard by the portal a few years back and just trying to be pragmatic in how we build depth and later on we'll go after the best players available regardless of position?

I love this recruiting class and I hope I've framed this in a way that isn't critcal, but instead complimentary.

If anything, I believe this approach more closely illuminates previous staffs inadequacies.

I like Heupel. I have a lot of faith in his ability. I am not a star gazer specifically because the recruiting sites do not find even half the players that possess the talent to be rated 4* or even 5*. They don't even try. That's the scam that so many don't get. They arbitrarily limit the number of 4/5* players they rate to make themselves look more accurate than they are. Their goal is NOT to identify the nation's best HS players. Their goal is to sell subscriptions and monetize clicks.

So, it is my belief and long stated opinion that the coach that brings UT or any other program into the top tier of competition will find A LOT of those underrated 3* players. That coach will be elite in developing players and on gameday.

All that said... if about half of the 3* they just signed do not turn out to be actual "blue chip" talents... then Heupel will probably be gone before a strategy like that could play out. That is not an "emotion" based prediction. It is very, very pragmatic. He just produced an amazing season. It has to turn into recruiting or portal talent for the future.

Honestly, you have a lot of people trying to "explain" this class or else rationalize it. I always try to step back and see if I can tell what someone's goal/method is by what they do. Bussell for instance committed in January. You would have to think that the season the Vols had gave them opportunities to "upgrade" if they thought it was necessary or possible. There is no indication that the staff has wavered at all. The lack of "stars" didn't dissuade them. The lack of other "elite" offers didn't change their mind. They offered, took his commitment, and didn't look back. This staff is recruiting to need but they also appear to be largely ignoring "recruiting buzz", recruiting site ratings, and to a large extent even what other programs think. This is a COMPLETE 180 from what Butch Jones did... which eventually tanked the talent level on the roster.


If "stars" mean as much as some think then what they did on the D side will cripple the program. You can't waste scholarships on guys like Smith, Telander, Luttrell, Weathersby, Robinson, Duncan, Conyer, and Slaughter and still compete IF THEY ARE AS INFERIOR as the recruiting sites think. Either Heupel and his staff are really, really good at identifying talent that they can develop to a high level... or this is big step in the wrong direction from competing for championships.

PS- NONE of this is me taking a shot at the class or players. It is me pushing back against those who put too much faith in the recruiting sites.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

The staff is still in a rebuilding mode, and have not won a championship, so many of those kids that Bama and Georgia got are still not available to us. Keep winning and more and more of them will be available. That said, I think Heup knows that given the way he plays the game he has to get the right players for his system that are available to him, whatever their star ratings. So, he will take the best athlete of those available that also fits his vision of how the game should be played. If he wins enough, he'll by default start getting more of the 4's and 5's that most fit his system.

 

[tennrich1]

IMO the recruiting services and P5 collegiate sports recruiting coordinators (that includes all coaches involved) for MOST…not all…but most programs have very little to do with each other. CLEARLY there will be some overlapping because they are dealing with the same kids. But most services are reluctant to rate a kid accurately if he hasn’t been playing because of injuries etc BUT may have attended a camp/worked out for a certain program and hit all the metrics they are looking for. Do the names look similar in the end? Of course. But does one codify the other? Absolutely not. A head coach will take his evaluation any day over a recruiting service.

 

[KingVFL]

I'd make a few observations about philosophy that are notable
- the staff is very purposeful about not treating all positions the same from a value standpoint and approaching the class from a "wins above replacement" mindset. Focusing on the positions where a super high-end guy is really different than a very good guy. The plan a year ago was to land a 1) high-end QB 2) OTs 3) pass rushers 4) CBs.. crushed it on 3 of 4 with tackle as frustrating one. Will be interesting what 2024s focus is
- they really trust their own evals and their process. It won't always be right but early signs from the last two years have shown they're really good here. There are guys like Leacock and Weathersby who really blew up with their senior years, guys like Hobbs and Carter that they went *all* in on closing down the stretch and then guys like Seldon and Matthews who we had rated way higher internally than any service. Similarly in the last class, we really felt like we got good ones in Sampson, Nimrod, Herring, Perry and Thomas (and the two tackles in Grant/Reddick) that were way better than ranked
- they are very focused on high character kids as they solidify the culture. We pass on a *lot* of kids that other schools take on because we don't think they'd work hard or could be a cancer internally
- they really believe in building from the ground up and using the portal judiciously. Would rather recruit and develop their own guys and use the portal selectively to fix major needs (and related to prior point only if the kids are high quality). 75-90% of portal kids are leaving for some reason that we wouldn't want to take on

I think the first two any school would probably claim but I do believe we are unique there.. the last two are definitely different than a number of peers. Will be interesting to see if schools that seem to be focused on going all in on the portal year after year and take on some idiots (USC, FSU, Texas, Colorado, TCU) hold up long-term.

 

[sjt18]

PS- the complimentary aspect to finding underrated 3* players is avoiding overrated 4/5* players and character issues.

 

[sjt18]

I'd make a few observations about philosophy that are notable
- the staff is very purposeful about not treating all positions the same from a value standpoint and approaching the class from a "wins above replacement" mindset. Focusing on the positions where a super high-end guy is really different than a very good guy. The plan a year ago was to land a 1) high-end QB 2) OTs 3) pass rushers 4) CBs.. crushed it on 3 of 4 with tackle as frustrating one. Will be interesting what 2024s focus is
- they really trust their own evals and their process. It won't always be right but early signs from the last two years have shown they're really good here. There are guys like Leacock and Weathersby who really blew up with their senior years, guys like Hobbs and Carter that they went *all* in on closing down the stretch and then guys like Seldon and Matthews who we had rated way higher internally than any service. Similarly in the last class, we really felt like we got good ones in Sampson, Nimrod, Herring, Perry and Thomas (and the two tackles in Grant/Reddick) that were way better than ranked
- they are very focused on high character kids as they solidify the culture. We pass on a *lot* of kids that other schools take on because we don't think they'd work hard or could be a cancer internally
- they really believe in building from the ground up and using the portal judiciously. Would rather recruit and develop their own guys and use the portal selectively to fix major needs (and related to prior point only if the kids are high quality). 75-90% of portal kids are leaving for some reason that we wouldn't want to take on

I think the first two any school would probably claim but I do believe we are unique there.. the last two are definitely different than a number of peers. Will be interesting to see if schools that seem to be focused on going all in on the portal year after year and take on some idiots (USC, FSU, Texas, Colorado, TCU) hold up long-term.

Great post and a couple of really great points within.

 

[BelieveTheHeup93]

I'd make a few observations about philosophy that are notable
- the staff is very purposeful about not treating all positions the same from a value standpoint and approaching the class from a "wins above replacement" mindset. Focusing on the positions where a super high-end guy is really different than a very good guy. The plan a year ago was to land a 1) high-end QB 2) OTs 3) pass rushers 4) CBs.. crushed it on 3 of 4 with tackle as frustrating one. Will be interesting what 2024s focus is
- they really trust their own evals and their process. It won't always be right but early signs from the last two years have shown they're really good here. There are guys like Leacock and Weathersby who really blew up with their senior years, guys like Hobbs and Carter that they went *all* in on closing down the stretch and then guys like Seldon and Matthews who we had rated way higher internally than any service. Similarly in the last class, we really felt like we got good ones in Sampson, Nimrod, Herring, Perry and Thomas (and the two tackles in Grant/Reddick) that were way better than ranked
- they are very focused on high character kids as they solidify the culture. We pass on a *lot* of kids that other schools take on because we don't think they'd work hard or could be a cancer internally
- they really believe in building from the ground up and using the portal judiciously. Would rather recruit and develop their own guys and use the portal selectively to fix major needs (and related to prior point only if the kids are high quality). 75-90% of portal kids are leaving for some reason that we wouldn't want to take on

I think the first two any school would probably claim but I do believe we are unique there.. the last two are definitely different than a number of peers. Will be interesting to see if schools that seem to be focused on going all in on the portal year after year and take on some idiots (USC, FSU, Texas, Colorado, TCU) hold up long-term.

They’ve done a good job at landing HS players at positions of need, but outside of Pili and maybe Karic they haven’t really done much in the portal at DB. I know there’s another portal cycle in the spring, but I expected to land at least 1 top notch DB by now

 

[sjt18]

They’ve done a good job at landing HS players at positions of need, but outside of Pili and maybe Karic they haven’t really done much in the portal at DB. I know there’s another portal cycle in the spring, but I expected to land at least 1 top notch DB by now

As I posted to you previously, they have their own plan and way of doing things. KingNico made an excellent point about not wanting to bring poison into the locker room. What he posted so well still seems to fly right over your head.

 

[lifeisdeep]

They’ve done a good job at landing HS players at positions of need, but outside of Pili and maybe Karic they haven’t really done much in the portal at DB. I know there’s another portal cycle in the spring, but I expected to land at least 1 top notch DB by now

There's a story today on Google news about the top 10 remaining unsigned high school players. More than one is a CB; none of those has us listed as a possibility. That's not ideal.

 

[CAVPUT]

I've followed recruiting for a long time and I wanted to make a few general observations about CJHs approach and hear everyone's thoughts.

It seems like very few coaches (at least the ones who have been here the last 15 years) devote as much attention to targeting specific team need as this staff. I think to most of us who aren't privy to all the interworkings of recruiting, this has always seemed like the practical approach, but most staffs that we've had seemed to value the best players available, regardless of position.

In other words, I don't ever remember a recruiting class that we've signed that the overwhelming majority of us would have agreed that the ones signed were exactly areas of need for the program more than this season.

My question is this practical, obvious approach to recruiting a result of CJHs philosophy and should we expect it every season? If so, I hope so. OR is it a result of us getting hit hard by the portal a few years back and just trying to be pragmatic in how we build depth and later on we'll go after the best players available regardless of position?

I love this recruiting class and I hope I've framed this in a way that isn't critcal, but instead complimentary.

If anything, I believe this approach more closely illuminates previous staffs inadequacies.

Not only that, but they're targeting a type of recruit that fits this culture. To find talented enough players to compete with the likes of UGA and bama and be a good fit is no small task. When you also factor in the NIL and what amount to collegiate free agency...well...it's going to take a very sharp and dedicated staff to pull it off. The college game today is a far different animal from when I was a lad. Much harder for coaching staffs these days. You can't "unrecruit" these kids anymore. You have to stay at it all 4 years. Whew. No wonder coaches are opting for the NFL. Easier gig.

 

[CAVPUT]

There's a story today on Google news about the top 10 remaining unsigned high school players. More than one is a CB; none of those has us listed as a possibility. That's not ideal.

I still believe there's going to be another group of players entering the portal after the bowls/playoffs and again after spring ball. If we fail to fill our needs by then, I'll be concerned. Right now I'm telling myself better quality will be available after the bowls and we're just being patient if we haven't already secured a verbal deal with players we've targeted who aren't in the portal at this point. Yeah, I know that's a stretch, but kids looking to leave will be making contact with programs they're interested in joining. Or maybe Heupel is just that happy with our youngsters? Gonna be fun to watch how they handle this new landscape.

 

[RAVOL]

Recruiting is about signing the absolute best player you can at each position and signing elite talent is goal for every staff. It's easy to identify most 5 star talent and high 4 star talent there athletic ability and ability to perform speaks for itself . It's the next 500 kids which are pretty much equal in athletic ability, so identifying which ones truly fit your team is important. In the end though rather 5 star or 2 star do they have the mental toughness to play at highest level of College Football. I don't care what star a player is do they posses enough ability for what position they play and hope the staff signed players who love the game. In CHRIST Alone

 

[BelieveTheHeup93]

As I posted to you previously, they have their own plan and way of doing things. KingNico made an excellent point about not wanting to bring poison into the locker room. What he posted so well still seems to fly right over your head.

He brought Lyn J Dixon in along with 2 guys that eventually got arrested for domestic/regular assault charges. I don’t doubt that he wants good people in the locker room, but I personally think this staff overestimates the current talent at DB and simply is incapable of building a good secondary. Just look at what they did last year in the portal. They brought in 2 safeties with Walker and Turrentine. Neither ended up being better than what we currently had on the roster and moved Slaughter and Charles to corner instead of just bringing in 2 good corners and leaving Slaughter and Charles at their natural positions. Imagine how much better our secondary would’ve been this past year with Flowers and Slaughter at safety with Charles and McCullough backing them up with Turnage and McDonald at the star with 2 actual corners starting on the perimeter and Burrell and Hadden as the 2nd string corners. 2 corners that are significantly better on the field than what we have that are potential basket cases can’t possibly hurt the team on the field any worse than Hadden and Burrell being our starting corners next year. Also all one has to do it watch Hadden in the South Carolina game and see there is already poison in the locker room. Particularly in the secondary

 

[KingVFL]

He brought Lyn J Dixon in along with 2 guys that eventually got arrested for domestic/regular assault charges. I don’t doubt that he wants good people in the locker room, but I personally think this staff overestimates the current talent at DB and simply is incapable of building a good secondary. Just look at what they did last year in the portal. They brought in 2 safeties with Walker and Turrentine. Neither ended up being better than what we currently had on the roster and moved Slaughter and Charles to corner instead of just bringing in 2 good corners and leaving Slaughter and Charles at their natural positions. Imagine how much better our secondary would’ve been this past year with Flowers and Slaughter at safety with Charles and McCullough backing them up with Turnage and McDonald at the star with 2 actual corners starting on the perimeter and Burrell and Hadden as the 2nd string corners. 2 corners that are significantly better on the field than what we have that are potential basket cases can’t possibly hurt the team on the field any worse than Hadden and Burrell being our starting corners next year. Also all one has to do it watch Hadden in the South Carolina game and see there is already poison in the locker room. Particularly in the secondary

2 of those 3 issue guys were last minute depth adds.. not purposefully added high school kids.

Also at underachieving in one game when going 10-2 as indication of poison in the locker room

 

[sjt18]

He brought Lyn J Dixon in along with 2 guys that eventually got arrested for domestic/regular assault charges.

Yeah. Gave Dixon a shot then sent him packing as soon as he slipped up. That really helps make your point for you. Which other two are you referring to?

I don’t doubt that he wants good people in the locker room, but I personally think this staff overestimates the current talent at DB and simply is incapable of building a good secondary.

Yeah. And you VASTLY overestimate your own knowledge and intelligence. You don't KNOW what they think of their current talent or what exactly they're doing or why they're doing it or that they aren't making EXACTLY the right cost/benefit analysis with the choices available. You have limited information. You are filling in the other 90% with you own assumptions then acting as if you are in a position to second guess these guys.

Just look at what they did last year in the portal. They brought in 2 safeties with Walker and Turrentine. Neither ended up being better than what we currently had on the roster

And your assumptions are that they were only looking for starters, that a bunch of other options were available to them, or that they did not properly evaluate the available options and make the RIGHT moves for 22 and beyond. Besides having virtually no information... you would be wrong even if you were "right".

and moved Slaughter and Charles to corner instead of just bringing in 2 good corners and leaving Slaughter and Charles at their natural positions.

How truly delusional or stupid are you? Seriously. You do NOT know that they had options for more talented players through the portal. You do not know that the talented options available to them would not have poisoned the locker room and set them back YEARS. You literally don't know ANYTHING that qualifies you to make a conclusion like that. Nothing.

Imagine how much better our secondary would’ve been this past year with Flowers and Slaughter at safety with Charles and McCullough backing them up with Turnage and McDonald at the star with 2 actual corners starting on the perimeter and Burrell and Hadden as the 2nd string corners.

Or Burrell doesn't get hurt before the first game and Hadden doesn't play hurt most of the year or if there were two lockdown corners in the portal with great attitudes and leadership just dying to sign up to play for UT and no one else.

2 corners that are significantly better on the field than what we have that are potential basket cases can’t possibly hurt the team on the field any worse than Hadden and Burrell being our starting corners next year.

And that's plain stupid. You don't sacrifice your locker room and long term culture in that kind of risk/reward scenario.

Also all one has to do it watch Hadden in the South Carolina game and see there is already poison in the locker room. Particularly in the secondary

Well, no. You don't know that by watching a game on TV with NOTHING else to go on. And let's say you are right. How cosmically MORONIC would it be to add some cancerous prima donna?

No. You're just going to have to do like the rest of us and trust that Heupel understands leadership and culture a million times better than YOU... and that a plan is being worked to develop the D. I have doubts about Banks as the guy to pull it all together. But not because HEUPEL isn't making the right assessments in the portal.