Clay - Liston rigged? 50th Anniversary

#1
volmanbill

volmanbill

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#1
Maybe it wasn’t such a shock, as 4-decade-old documents released to The Washington Times under the Freedom of Information Act show the FBI suspected the fight may have been fixed by a Las Vegas figure tied to organized crime and to Liston. The documents show no evidence that Ali was in on the scheme or even knew about it. And nothing suggests the bureau ever fully corroborated the suspicions it investigated.
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FBI suspected iconic 1964 Ali-Liston fight was rigged by mob - Washington Times
 
#2
#2
People have been arguing whether or not both of their fights were fixed for years now.
 
#4
#4
NochNoch said:
People have been arguing whether or not both of their fights were fixed for years now.
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Yep. I don't think anyone would be shocked. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out Ali had no clue.
 
#5
#5
I believe the story goes that in the iconic photo from the fight, Ali is telling Liston to "get up you bum"(making the hand motion) because nobody is going to believe that was a legit knockout.

ali_liston_655.jpg
 
#8
#8
BadJerry20 said:
He's not even the most overrated boxer, that would be Mike "gimme another bum" Tyson, or Floyd "Paper bag" Mayweather. IMO
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There are definitely a lot of overrated boxers to choose from. That's for sure.

Ali is the only one who gets mentioned as one of the best all around athletes ever, though. I just think that is absurd.
 
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#9
shelbyvillevol said:
There are definitely a lot of overrated boxers to choose from. That's for sure.

Ali is the only one who gets mentioned as one of the best all around athletes ever, though. I just think that is absurd.
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Hard to "fake" the 3 Frazier fights, Foreman, or the brain damage afterwards.
 
#11
#11
shelbyvillevol said:
There are definitely a lot of overrated boxers to choose from. That's for sure.

Ali is the only one who gets mentioned as one of the best all around athletes ever, though. I just think that is absurd.
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All around like Bo or Deion? If so I agree, I don't think Ali was a freak athlete by any means. Mentally he could kill guys on a level very few have ever done, maybe only MJ.
 
#13
#13
Btw if we are just going pure athlete as a boxer. RJJ tops my list, dude was so physically gifted.
 
#14
#14
BadJerry20 said:
All around like Bo or Deion? If so I agree, I don't think Ali was a freak athlete by any means. Mentally he could kill guys on a level very few have ever done, maybe only MJ.
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Pre-infidelity scandal Tiger is on that level. Ali's mouth is the main reason why is held in a higher esteem than other boxers who were as good or better.
 
#15
#15
shelbyvillevol said:
Pre-infidelity scandal Tiger is on that level. Ali's mouth is the main reason why is held in a higher esteem than other boxers who were as good or better.
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Yeah I forgot about Tiger, Fedor had that ability for awhile. Ali's mouth definitely helped his standing among the greats.
 
#16
#16
BadJerry20 said:
Btw if we are just going pure athlete as a boxer. RJJ tops my list, dude was so physically gifted.
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I don't know. Boxing is a sport that can be hard to evaluate pure athleticism. We know guys like Roy and Money are great athletes, but a boxer can't make it on athleticism alone like they could in some other sports.
 
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shelbyvillevol said:
I don't know. Boxing is a sport that can be hard to evaluate pure athleticism. We know guys like Roy and Money are great athletes, but a boxer can't make it on athleticism alone like they could in some other sports.
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RJJ played in the USBL a little while, and could dunk at 5'11. Thats why I say him above other boxers. Also played in a game then had a fight later that day.
 
#19
#19
GAVol said:
Yep. I don't think anyone would be shocked. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out Ali had no clue.
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It's all mythology at this point in time but the consensus has always been that, if there was a fix in, Ali had no idea about it and, as huff said, the most popular story is that Ali knew that Liston took in dive in the 2nd fight and was furious about it in the ring.

Like many things in boxing, everything around those fights is just shrouded in rumors and conspiracy theories. In the first fight Ali got something in his eyes that caused them to sting like crazy. The accusation was that Liston had something on his gloves but Ali's corner swore that it was sweat running down mixed with whatever they were using to treat his cuts/swelling. Then before Dundee died he went back and said that he did think it was a foreign substance on the gloves.
 
#20
#20
BadJerry20 said:
Btw if we are just going pure athlete as a boxer. RJJ tops my list, dude was so physically gifted.
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It's hard to argue against Jones but, if we're just talking in the just the last 20 years or so, I'd take Pernell Whitaker over him in the pure athleticism department. If you're going back a further that that, guys like Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard, Ken Norton, Ali and Floyd Patterson would have to be in the discussion.

Also, everybody may despise Mayweather and dismiss him as overrated if they want to but he's easily the most athletic guy in boxing since Jones and has stayed at his peak a lot longer than Roy ever did.
 
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#21
NochNoch said:
It's hard to argue against Jones but, if we're just talking in the just the last 20 years or so, I'd take Pernell Whitaker over him in the pure athleticism department. If you're going back a further that that, guys like Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard, Ken Norton, Ali and Floyd Patterson would have to be in the discussion.

Also, everybody may despise Mayweather and dismiss him as overrated if they want to but he's easily the most athletic guy in boxing since Jones and has stayed at his peak a lot longer than Roy ever did.
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I don't feel any sympathy towards Mayweather. The fight with Manny was his one true shot at vindication, and he never would take it. Mayweather's name will always carry that stigma because of that.
 
#22
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shelbyvillevol said:
I don't feel any sympathy towards Mayweather. The fight with Manny was his one true shot at vindication, and he never would take it. Mayweather's name will always carry that stigma because of that.
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I don't either, I don't know anyone who does. He's a jackass of epic proportions and I root for him to lose every time he laces em up. That still doesn't change the fact that he's an otherworldly athlete and one of the greatest defensive fighters of all time.

Also, Manny and his camp never wanted that fight to happen either, at least not back at a time where it really meant something. Back when it was THE fight everyone wanted, both sides talked in terms that they knew the other would never agree to and therefore never actually ever have to go through with it. Now that he's been ironing boarded by Marquez, Manny would jump all over it but now he doesn't carry the same appeal so he doesn't have a reason to hold back anymore.
 
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#23
And that is one of the reasons boxing is dying, while MMA is thriving. Too many people with too many agenda's to make great fights happen in boxing. Dana makes the big fights fans want, and 95% of the best fighters are in the same organization.
 
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BadJerry20 said:
And that is one of the reasons boxing is dying, while MMA is thriving. Too many people with too many agenda's to make great fights happen in boxing. Dana makes the big fights fans want, and 95% of the best fighters are in the same organization.
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You nailed it. Boxing has WAY too many hands in the cookie jar for the sport to thrive.
 
#25
#25
shelbyvillevol said:
You nailed it. Boxing has WAY too many hands in the cookie jar for the sport to thrive.
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Sucks too cause I grew up on boxing, even done it a few years. I hate that it's in the state it is in, and I don't think it will ever be great again.
 
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