Democrats haven't been tough enough?

#1

volinbham

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#1
I just saw an interview with Terry McAuliffe about his new book.

His main point was that democrats haven't been tough enough. In the last six years, I've seen:

vicious attacks from every level of the democratic party

parliamentary tactics aimed at thwarting initiatives

and now a democratically controlled Congress that has virtually shut out the other side from participation in law making.

How much tougher should they get????

Oh yeah, they are supposed to be the big tent, tolerant party...
 
#3
#3
I think what he means is that they aren't as vicious as the Republican machine. The Republicans, or more accurately those sympatheitc to them, have made great strides in controlling dissmination of information in the last 15 years. Virtually all talk radio is neocon and of course the emergence of Fox "News" has everyone with liberal leanings in a tither.
 
#4
#4
Here's where I disagree - the democrats (or at least many of their spokespeople) are every bit as vicious as the Reps.

In terms of partisan politics, the dems have been very aggressive.

When the Senate was barely in Rep. control, Senate Leader Lott offered to share many committee chairships. You've seen no such concilliatory offers from the dems.

I think the dems that think they've been weak and mild while the reps have been vicious and mean are out of their minds. The real thing holding the dem party back has been lack of a coherent message and lack of leadership -- not a lack of toughness.
 
#5
#5
Here's where I disagree - the democrats (or at least many of their spokespeople) are every bit as vicious as the Reps.

In terms of partisan politics, the dems have been very aggressive.

When the Senate was barely in Rep. control, Senate Leader Lott offered to share many committee chairships. You've seen no such concilliatory offers from the dems.

I think the dems that think they've been weak and mild while the reps have been vicious and mean are out of their minds. The real thing holding the dem party back has been lack of a coherent message and lack of leadership -- not a lack of toughness.

I think the democrat's base is viewed as more aggressive or vehement than the republican base.
 
#6
#6
I think the democrat's base is viewed as more aggressive or vehement than the republican base.
Maybe someone someone should let Dobson, falwell and robertson know they are not agressive.Gotta love southern politics well the rnc can keep the south cause it won't be needed do the math hahahahaha ohio goes dem nevada goes dem and possibly missourrii and virginia i don't see cons picking up any new states please all detractors tell me how I'm wrong and try making some sense.:eek:lol:
 
#7
#7
Maybe someone someone should let Dobson, falwell and robertson know they are not agressive.Gotta love southern politics well the rnc can keep the south cause it won't be needed do the math hahahahaha ohio goes dem nevada goes dem and possibly missourrii and virginia i don't see cons picking up any new states please all detractors tell me how I'm wrong and try making some sense.:eek:lol:

Do you want to actually debate the subject, or continue to take drivel pop shots?

If you actually want to debate the subject then I will give it a miniscule try.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Clinton experience suggests some painful questions about the probable outcome of the recent Democratic election triumph. Some liberal-left commentators are claiming that the swing to the right is over and the left is now on the march (“A Big Step in Nation’s March to Left,” BaltimoreSun). [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]But Clinton turned out to be only a brief slowup in the longer-term move to the right and in some ways he accelerated the move, as in his support of the Personal Responsibility Act of 1996 that ended federal responsibility for poor people. It has been argued that it would have been hard for conservatives to get this responsibility ended so quickly; it required “bipartisan” support provided by the leadership of a Democratic president. Most important, by pushing for NAFTA and fiscal austerity and failing to carry out any program that served the mass constituency of the Democratic Party, Clinton set the stage for a return of the right wing. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The lesson was that unless the Democratic Party can actually meet the demands and needs of its mass constituency, its triumph can be short-lived. There are ample grounds for thinking that this problem is more acute now than 14 years ago; and that the existing Democratic Party is likely to fall short of meeting constituency demands. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Democratic Party has benefited from a widespread disaffection and distrust of the Bush administration—its wars, corruption, mismanagement, and lies—with votes falling into Democratic hands not because of what the Democrats have done or even promised, but because they are not Bush and company. Bill Fletcher and others have called this the “I am fed up” vote. Beyond this, if we examine what the Democratic Party stands for, who leads it, who it represents, and what it is likely to do, it is hard to be optimistic. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Frank Rich, John Nichols, and others contest this, arguing that the newly-elected Democrats are almost across the board to the left of the displaced Republicans. Rich acknowledges that “disengaging America from that war is what the country voted for overwhelmingly on November 7 and that’s what the Democrats almost uniformly promised to speed up, whatever their vague, often inchoate notions about how to do it” (“It’s Not the Democrats Who Are Divided,” New York Times). Nichols points out that the “Progressive Caucus” of the Democrats in the House (about 64, but growing) is substantially larger than the collections of “Blue Dogs” (perhaps 40) or “New Democrats” (possibly 50) and that virtually all of the newly-elected Democrats were to the left of the displaced Republicans (“The Crowded Progressive Caucus,”)[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]One difficulty with Nichols’s argument is that the Progressive Caucus is still a minority bloc and on his own count it is smaller than the Blue Dog plus New Democrat total even within the Democratic Party. The problem of the Democrats for years has been that with substantial numbers of Blue Dogs (self-described as conservative to moderate) and New Democrats ready to abandon the progressive ship on the basis of non-progressive principle, or at the drop of a lobbyist’s check, progressive actions are easily stymied. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Thus, in earlier years under Carter and Clinton, progressive legislation and actions were regularly blocked in Congress, despite Democratic majorities and Democratic presidents. There have been no comparable dissident “liberal” blocs of Republican legislators, so that George W. Bush has had an easy ride with Republican legislative majorities. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]With a splintered and not very well disciplined Democratic majority in the House, a majority in the Senate with Bush ally Joseph Lieberman as the balancing voter, and with George W. Bush still president and in possession of a veto power, the possibilities for progressive Democratic action are sharply limited. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]It is hoped that the Democrats will at least launch some serious investigations of Bush administration corruption, law violations, and mismanagement, but while this may transpire, there are questions about how many and how aggressively and effectively they will function. The Democratic leaders will have to work with the executive to get many things done and they have already indicated that they are keen to avoid “partisanship.” But non-partisanship will discourage or compromise the needed investigations and legal actions within congressional power. [/FONT]​
 
#8
#8
Do you want to actually debate the subject, or continue to take drivel pop shots?

If you actually want to debate the subject then I will give it a miniscule try.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Clinton experience suggests some painful questions about the probable outcome of the recent Democratic election triumph. Some liberal-left commentators are claiming that the swing to the right is over and the left is now on the march (“A Big Step in Nation’s March to Left,” BaltimoreSun). [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]But Clinton turned out to be only a brief slowup in the longer-term move to the right and in some ways he accelerated the move, as in his support of the Personal Responsibility Act of 1996 that ended federal responsibility for poor people. It has been argued that it would have been hard for conservatives to get this responsibility ended so quickly; it required “bipartisan” support provided by the leadership of a Democratic president. Most important, by pushing for NAFTA and fiscal austerity and failing to carry out any program that served the mass constituency of the Democratic Party, Clinton set the stage for a return of the right wing. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The lesson was that unless the Democratic Party can actually meet the demands and needs of its mass constituency, its triumph can be short-lived. There are ample grounds for thinking that this problem is more acute now than 14 years ago; and that the existing Democratic Party is likely to fall short of meeting constituency demands. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Democratic Party has benefited from a widespread disaffection and distrust of the Bush administration—its wars, corruption, mismanagement, and lies—with votes falling into Democratic hands not because of what the Democrats have done or even promised, but because they are not Bush and company. Bill Fletcher and others have called this the “I am fed up” vote. Beyond this, if we examine what the Democratic Party stands for, who leads it, who it represents, and what it is likely to do, it is hard to be optimistic. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Frank Rich, John Nichols, and others contest this, arguing that the newly-elected Democrats are almost across the board to the left of the displaced Republicans. Rich acknowledges that “disengaging America from that war is what the country voted for overwhelmingly on November 7 and that’s what the Democrats almost uniformly promised to speed up, whatever their vague, often inchoate notions about how to do it” (“It’s Not the Democrats Who Are Divided,” New York Times). Nichols points out that the “Progressive Caucus” of the Democrats in the House (about 64, but growing) is substantially larger than the collections of “Blue Dogs” (perhaps 40) or “New Democrats” (possibly 50) and that virtually all of the newly-elected Democrats were to the left of the displaced Republicans (“The Crowded Progressive Caucus,”)[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]One difficulty with Nichols’s argument is that the Progressive Caucus is still a minority bloc and on his own count it is smaller than the Blue Dog plus New Democrat total even within the Democratic Party. The problem of the Democrats for years has been that with substantial numbers of Blue Dogs (self-described as conservative to moderate) and New Democrats ready to abandon the progressive ship on the basis of non-progressive principle, or at the drop of a lobbyist’s check, progressive actions are easily stymied. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Thus, in earlier years under Carter and Clinton, progressive legislation and actions were regularly blocked in Congress, despite Democratic majorities and Democratic presidents. There have been no comparable dissident “liberal” blocs of Republican legislators, so that George W. Bush has had an easy ride with Republican legislative majorities. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]With a splintered and not very well disciplined Democratic majority in the House, a majority in the Senate with Bush ally Joseph Lieberman as the balancing voter, and with George W. Bush still president and in possession of a veto power, the possibilities for progressive Democratic action are sharply limited. [/FONT]​


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]It is hoped that the Democrats will at least launch some serious investigations of Bush administration corruption, law violations, and mismanagement, but while this may transpire, there are questions about how many and how aggressively and effectively they will function. The Democratic leaders will have to work with the executive to get many things done and they have already indicated that they are keen to avoid “partisanship.” But non-partisanship will discourage or compromise the needed investigations and legal actions within congressional power. [/FONT]​
and all this has what to do with the basic electoral math I presented . Hey you're in Ohio is it true there is a suicide watch going on at the ohio republican committees hq. that's what I'm hearing hahaha.:eek:lol:
 
#10
#10
and all this has what to do with the basic electoral math I presented . Hey you're in Ohio is it true there is a suicide watch going on at the ohio republican committees hq. that's what I'm hearing hahaha.:eek:lol:

1.) Fairly obvious is it not? :yes:

The reason for the democratic takeover of congress coincides with the republican takeover during the Clinton years. The shifts in the states are so-called blue dog democrats, thus nothing has changed. The general population wants a centrist government.

The only way to achieve that goal with a democratic takeover of congress was to elect moderate democrats and not far left hardliners. States are not becoming republican and or democrat, they are becoming centrist with the hardliners on either side attempting to grab power when available.

2.) Every one is on suicide watch in Ohio, it is winter, we do not see the Sun till June. :thumbsup:
 
#11
#11
More of those "facts" from Air America?
No the fact you had an incumbent senator get hammered or your con sec. of state got destroyed on Nov.7 hey y'all keep telling yourselves Nov. 7 2006 did not happen.
I know facts like that are hard to deal with but you've got to come to grips eventually.
 
#12
#12
No the fact you had an incumbent senator get hammered or your con sec. of state got destroyed on Nov.7 hey y'all keep telling yourselves Nov. 7 2006 did not happen.
I know facts like that are hard to deal with but you've got to come to grips eventually.

Wow, you live in hateful and vile world. Why would any one, in their right mind, care what happened on election night?

:no:
 
#14
#14
Your posts DAVOL support the original premise of this thread. Your responses are snide attacks (weak but snide nonetheless).

Thanks for providing a live example of the premise :thumbsup:
 
#15
#15
Maybe cause they have a say in how you live your life just maybe.:salute:

You honestly believe government directly effects how you live your daily life.

Of course your going to bring up numerous things as taxes to the speed limit, but the government has a direct say in how you live your life?

:blink:
 
#16
#16
Your posts DAVOL support the original premise of this thread. Your responses are snide attacks (weak but snide nonetheless).

Thanks for providing a live example of the premise :thumbsup:
Where are your facts jack I've provided some yet everything you say has been opinion and that is another fact I'm providing,.
 
#17
#17
Where are your facts jack I've provided some yet everything you say has been opinion and that is another fact I'm providing,.

He was simply pointing out the sophomoric cheap shots in your responses.

Let’s get back to the government and daily life.
 
#19
#19
Maybe someone someone should let Dobson, falwell and robertson know they are not agressive.Gotta love southern politics well the rnc can keep the south cause it won't be needed do the math hahahahaha ohio goes dem nevada goes dem and possibly missourrii and virginia i don't see cons picking up any new states please all detractors tell me how I'm wrong and try making some sense.:eek:lol:

Just to take one example - this statement is full of opinion - you are stating an opinion about Dobson et al.

You are making a prediction about future elections.

Please review the definition of "facts".

Further, you've delivered your opinions with attempted shots at those holding opposing views. You don't see the same level of response in this thread until you came along. Concidentally, you are representing the democratic view - with aggressive statements.

Finally, the original premise never suggests that Republicans have not been aggressive - it challenges the assertion that Democrats haven't been as or more aggressive.
 
#20
#20
Hell you brought up 2 right there and there is a million others they are called laws.

Exactly, that is why I brought them up. We have to have laws, we can argue the formality and need of them but I want to go back to topic.

How does government decide your life?

Do you not have choice?
 
#21
#21
Exactly, that is why I brought them up. We have to have laws, we can argue the formality and need of them but I want to go back to topic.

How does government decide your life?

Do you not have choice?
To certain extents like if I don't want to pay taxes I can quit working and live on the street face it if election night is irrelevent why vote then.
Also I'm am one of the few left side voices in this forum believe me I know most of y'all are used to this forum basically being a libertarian/neocon circle jerk with very few dissenting opinions so yeah I may come off as aggressive or abrasive but that is just how it is.
 
#22
#22
I know most of y'all are used to this forum basically being a libertarian/neocon circle jerk

Aggressive or assertive? I don't see how such statements could be interpreted that way. Seems like typical left-leaning intellectual debate to me :)
 
#23
#23
To certain extents like if I don't want to pay taxes I can quit working and live on the street face it if election night is irrelevent why vote then.
Also I'm am one of the few left side voices in this forum believe me I know most of y'all are used to this forum basically being a libertarian/neocon circle jerk with very few dissenting opinions so yeah I may come off as aggressive or abrasive but that is just how it is.

Election night is not irrelevant, but to stake your life on it? Why would I drown myself in sorrow if candidates I support lost?

Democrats earned their power, now I hope and pray they do a wonderful job for all Americans. It would be no different if republicans were still in power. It is about the people of the United States, not a political faction.

I love an opposing point of view, how does one grow if all they hear is regurgitation?

I love having you in here debating issues, as for you telling it how it is, that is only from your point of view.

Using sophomoric quips, such as neo-con circle jerk, attempting to shame me or someone else is non useful to a discussion. The only person you are hurting with quips such as that is yourself.

Please, by all means continue to post in this forum. Just lay off the non essential drivel.
 
#24
#24
Election night is not irrelevant, but to stake your life on it? Why would I drown myself in sorrow if candidates I support lost?

Democrats earned their power, now I hope and pray they do a wonderful job for all Americans. It would be no different if republicans were still in power. It is about the people of the United States, not a political faction.

I love an opposing point of view, how does one grow if all they here is regurgitation?

I love having you in here debating issues, as for you telling it how it is, that is only from your point of view.

Using sophomoric quips, such as neo-con circle jerk, attempting to shame me or someone else is non useful to a discussion. The only person you are hurting with quips such as that is yourself.

Please, by all means continue to post in this forum. Just lay off the non essential drivel.
Hey don't leave out the libertarians lol I gotta go guys been fun.
 

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