Democrats to let offshore drilling ban expire

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notverycrucial

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#1
Democrats to let offshore drilling ban expire - AP

WASHINGTON - Democrats have decided to allow a quarter-century ban on drilling for oil off the Atlantic and Pacific coasts to expire next week, conceding defeat in a months-long battle with the White House and Republicans set off by $4 a gallon gasoline prices this summer.
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House Appropriations Committee Chairman David Obey, D-Wis., told reporters Tuesday that a provision continuing the moratorium will be dropped this year from a stopgap spending bill to keep the government running after Congress recesses for the election.

Republicans have made lifting the ban a key campaign issue after gasoline prices spiked this summer and public opinion turned in favor of more drilling. President Bush lifted an executive ban on offshore drilling in July.

"If true, this capitulation by Democrats following months of Republican pressure is a big victory for Americans struggling with record gasoline prices," said House GOP leader John Boehner of Ohio.

I think this makes Dems look weak. If they're really agaist offshore drilling, why vote to lift the ban? Most likely b/c the public thinks it'll affect gas prices -- not b/c the Dems or Reps do.
 
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I will continue to say it until election day...a vote for Obama is a vote for Pelosi
 
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Democrats to let offshore drilling ban expire - AP



I think this makes Dems look weak. If they're really agaist offshore drilling, why vote to lift the ban? Most likely b/c the public thinks it'll affect gas prices -- not b/c the Dems or Reps do.

"If true, this capitulation by Democrats following months of Republican pressure is a big victory for Americans struggling with record gasoline prices," said House GOP leader John Boehner of Ohio. "

This statement just goes to show this is nothing more than a political platform. In no way is offshore drilling going to impact oil prices in the short-term. For the most part, it won't impact them at all. What little oil we know exists won't impact supply much at all either.
 
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"If true, this capitulation by Democrats following months of Republican pressure is a big victory for Americans struggling with record gasoline prices," said House GOP leader John Boehner of Ohio. "

This statement just goes to show this is nothing more than a political platform. In no way is offshore drilling going to impact oil prices in the short-term. For the most part, it won't impact them at all. What little oil we know exists won't impact supply much at all either.

Not the point in an election year. The only thing it does is confirm, in voters minds, that the Dems have been keeping the process from moving forward.
 
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"If true, this capitulation by Democrats following months of Republican pressure is a big victory for Americans struggling with record gasoline prices," said House GOP leader John Boehner of Ohio. "

This statement just goes to show this is nothing more than a political platform. In no way is offshore drilling going to impact oil prices in the short-term. For the most part, it won't impact them at all. What little oil we know exists won't impact supply much at all either.

How about this novel idea. In an unstable world it will put the US in position to be able to sustain itself from our own natural resources, rather than being reliant on our enemies. That alone makes it a worthy idea but still not complete, ANWR is still an issue that needs to be knocked over.
 
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and it will be with McCain/Palin in the White House...John will not be able to tell her no for very long...the whole woman being right thing and all
 
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How about this novel idea. In an unstable world it will put the US in position to be able to sustain itself from our own natural resources, rather than being reliant on our enemies. That alone makes it a worthy idea but still not complete, ANWR is still an issue that needs to be knocked over.

I haven't figured that one out yet. I think that the only way this is true is if someone subsidizes our oil companies to build the necessary equipment ASSUMING that there is cheaper oil elsewhere (after risk analysis). If the oil off the coast is available at competitive prices for extraction (including some, high, level of capital investment), then this argument is moot....but I'm not sure that it is. Particularly if worldwide oil prices recede back to the $80 level.

My point is, do you think that the oil companies will make the necessary investment to actually be able to meet US demand in the event that it is necessary without some sort of subsidy to over-build extraction capabilities as some sort of safety valve? Also....are you OK with nationalizing our oil supply in the event of an emergency to take that oil away from the oil companies' world market and directed only for domestic use...or how do you see it shaking out to ensure it is OUR supply if we need it?
 
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I haven't figured that one out yet. I think that the only way this is true is if someone subsidizes our oil companies to build the necessary equipment ASSUMING that there is cheaper oil elsewhere (after risk analysis). If the oil off the coast is available at competitive prices for extraction (including some, high, level of capital investment), then this argument is moot....but I'm not sure that it is. Particularly if worldwide oil prices recede back to the $80 level.

My point is, do you think that the oil companies will make the necessary investment to actually be able to meet US demand in the event that it is necessary without some sort of subsidy to over-build extraction capabilities as some sort of safety valve? Also....are you OK with nationalizing our oil supply in the event of an emergency to take that oil away from the oil companies' world market and directed only for domestic use...or how do you see it shaking out to ensure it is OUR supply if we need it?

If there is large amounts of oil in the OCS and ANWR that is worthy of extraction, I can't see why oil companies would not gradually shift their equipment and resources to these places. Would I rather conduct my business in the US or some unstable country in the mideast?

If it is not worthy of extraction, why are you and those of your ideaology so against opening the places to production? Open it up, if it takes worthy investment and you believe that investment is too large for the liking of the oil companies, then you have nothing to worry about, the land will not be utilized.


My point above was in relation to emergencies or an environment that leads in that direction. So yes, in an emergency I am ok with the US government taking the steps needed to secure the resources we sit on. This walking around blind attitude and banking on these unproven technologies is nonsensical.
 
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If there is large amounts of oil in the OCS and ANWR that is worthy of extraction, I can't see why oil companies would not gradually shift their equipment and resources to these places. Would I rather conduct my business in the US or some unstable country in the mideast?

If it is not worthy of extraction, why are you and those of your ideaology so against opening the places to production? Open it up, if it takes worthy investment and you believe that investment is too large for the liking of the oil companies, then you have nothing to worry about, the land will not be utilized.


My point above was in relation to emergencies or an environment that leads in that direction. So yes, in an emergency I am ok with the US government taking the steps needed to secure the resources we sit on. This walking around blind attitude and banking on these unproven technologies is nonsensical.

I haven't said that I'm completely against opening up offshore drilling...in fact, I criticized Obama for not saying he was open to the idea sooner.

With that said, there are two issues: the environmental debate and the production debate. I'm not interested in the environmental debate at the moment, and I doubt you are either. As to the production debate - the issue would seem to be whether the price of oil when added to the calculated risk of operating on foreign (and sometimes hostile) soil is greater than the cost of extraction (and capital outlay, discounted over some period) of our offshore resources. Most importantly, would the price differential be sufficient to warrant an extensive enough investment in off-shore capital equipment to have the capability to supply the majority of our national demand. I'm honestly thinking it wouldn't....unless it is subsidized...but it could. I'm asking the question to anyone who might have a better idea about it.

Another matter is the aspect of this gradual shift...I would have to think that it would be a very, very long time of gradual shifting in order to ever meet our demand with our own, domestic resources.

I'm not making an argument against off-shore drilling as much as I'm not convinced that the intended increased reliance on domestic supply is really going to be met. Sure, we'll increase domestic supply to some degree...but I don't think that it will be enough to validate the argument.
 
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As to the production debate - the issue would seem to be whether the price of oil when added to the calculated risk of operating on foreign (and sometimes hostile) soil is greater than the cost of extraction (and capital outlay, discounted over some period) of our offshore resources. Most importantly, would the price differential be sufficient to warrant an extensive enough investment in off-shore capital equipment to have the capability to supply the majority of our national demand. I'm honestly thinking it wouldn't....unless it is subsidized...but it could. I'm asking the question to anyone who might have a better idea about it.

Another matter is the aspect of this gradual shift...I would have to think that it would be a very, very long time of gradual shifting in order to ever meet our demand with our own, domestic resources.

I'm not making an argument against off-shore drilling as much as I'm not convinced that the intended increased reliance on domestic supply is really going to be met. Sure, we'll increase domestic supply to some degree...but I don't think that it will be enough to validate the argument.

It is completely legitimate to ask if the incentive would be there for oil companies to shift more production to the US. Either way, I prefer the option be there. The "no it is not even an option", I can't stand.

My argument was never about prices, it was about national security and the ability to supply energy from our own natural resources if the need arises. The uproar in the economy over the past 2 weeks is a good example of how quickly things can change. That being said, why would we handicap our ability to secure our own resources?
 
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It is completely legitimate to ask if the incentive would be there for oil companies to shift more production to the US. Either way, I prefer the option be there. The "no it is not even an option", I can't stand.

My argument was never about prices, it was about national security and the ability to supply energy from our own natural resources if the need arises. The uproar in the economy over the past 2 weeks is a good example of how quickly things can change. That being said, why would we handicap our ability to secure our own resources?

We would only handicap it if we felt that there would be significant environmental harm if we drill in these areas. And, I don't really think that there will be "significant" environmental impact to off-shore drilling (save some extremely low-probability event).

By opening the door to offshore drilling, you open up the possibility of one of these low-probability events. And, it is probably wise to weigh these risks against the risks of not having our own domestic capable of being tapped. However, an important aspect of weighing those options is...is the incentive there for the necessary capital investment to allow ourselves an out if we are cut from foreign supply.

If there is no incentive (from a price standpoint, since that is the language the oil companies will be speaking of course) at the moment to place enough equipment out there to meet our national demand...then opening it up doesn't really "secure" us that much. Let's say that we can produce 10% of what we need off-shore. Let's say that is 5 off-shore fields (I have no idea...so those of you who know...don't kill me). Now, if that is all the investment that makes sense to the companies...then we would still have to come up with 90% of our demand in the event that we are shut-down. And...it would obviously take years and years to build enough rigs to come up with that amount. In effect, opening it up now..or just in the event of a national emergency would be little different in these cases when it comes to the number of years required to become "energy independent."

I only bring this up because these numbers are important to the honest evaluation of why or why not open it up and drill. Sure, "energy independence" sounds good - but is it really a legitimate explanation of why we would open it? If the numbers don't support the investment to the level of "energy independence," then are we being honest when we use it as a reason to do it? Is 10% of our supply enough for independence...or 50%?

Without the numbers to support it, my position is that while there is some risk to opening fields off-shore - the risk is too small to place this (potentially) large externality of no-offshore-drilling-allowed on the oil markets. I don't think that it is going to give us energy independence and I don't think that it is going to lower the price of oil that much, but it might make more sense for some companies to invest in these resources over other resources elsewhere...and providing that freedom shouldn't hurt the market. And...it keeps these jobs a little closer to home which generally isn't a bad thing.

The only other point that I wonder about in the back of my head is...the governments that be in some areas of the middle east (such as Saudi Arabia) have a huge vested interest in keeping positive relationships with the west and keeping their oil flowing to us. As such, they are a friendly government. If we shift that balance, I do wonder how that shifts politics in the region....
 
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Democrats to let offshore drilling ban expire - AP



I think this makes Dems look weak. If they're really agaist offshore drilling, why vote to lift the ban? Most likely b/c the public thinks it'll affect gas prices -- not b/c the Dems or Reps do.


As a point of clarification: The are not voting to lift the ban. The ban is expiring. They were planning to vote to extend the ban. Instead, they will let the ban expire naturally by not voting to extend it.

A subtle but real difference.
 
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"If true, this capitulation by Democrats following months of Republican pressure is a big victory for Americans struggling with record gasoline prices," said House GOP leader John Boehner of Ohio. "

This statement just goes to show this is nothing more than a political platform. In no way is offshore drilling going to impact oil prices in the short-term. For the most part, it won't impact them at all. What little oil we know exists won't impact supply much at all either.

We'll see. The notion of expanding supply may put some downward pressure on current oil prices. Not sure how much.
 
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it doesn't matter what they do. The Sierra Club and other enviro-activist groups, along with sympathetic judges, will tie up any plans to drill offshore.

as far as the environmental safety issue is concerned, we've had two major hurricanes hit gulf oil production facilities in a month. I don't think I heard about a single drop of oil impacting the environment. The technology is safe.
 
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it doesn't matter what they do. The Sierra Club and other enviro-activist groups, along with sympathetic judges, will tie up any plans to drill offshore.

as far as the environmental safety issue is concerned, we've had two major hurricanes hit gulf oil production facilities in a month. I don't think I heard about a single drop of oil impacting the environment. The technology is safe.

Schlumberger don't hire no fools, baby....

(aka...I tend to agree...)
 
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If there is no incentive (from a price standpoint, since that is the language the oil companies will be speaking of course) at the moment to place enough equipment out there to meet our national demand...then opening it up doesn't really "secure" us that much.


If there is no incentive, or one that is lucrative enough for the oil companies to pursue then no need for a ban. Right?

The issue should be left to individual states.
 
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If there is no incentive, or one that is lucrative enough for the oil companies to pursue then no need for a ban. Right?

The issue should be left to individual states.

I tend to agree with you, except I tried to make the following points in my above posts:

1) While there may not be an incentive for large-scale investment (enough to supply the US with all of its oil), there could easily be incentive for investment on some scale. That introduces the possibility for environmental accidents - although it is a very, very small probability that it would any accidents would be of any real significance. But, that is one side of the argument.

2) I'm not saying "don't lift the ban"...but I am saying that it is near impossible for me to buy this as a bid for energy independence. If the numbers support that sort of investment, then that's great...but I do not think they do.


To construe this as some sort of issue that America must pursue for its security seems just as dishonest to me as framing it as an issue that if America pursues will ruin our "pristine" coastlines and destroy ecosystems.
 
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As for the individual states issue...I'm not sure where I fall on that one....do states own the rights to the fish, for example, off their coast? I know that if you leave the dock in Florida, you better have a Florida license...but...what I mean to say is when a fishing boat leaves Gloucester, MA heading for fishing waters to the south, do they have to buy permits from each state whose coast they closest? Or is there some sort of federal permit for fishing these offshore waters at that kind of level? I only ask because I don't know...and it would help me sort out the states vs. federal issue. It seems to me an issue that could involve many states (for example, if it affects whale migration - North Carolina might not care...but I bet Maine would be mad if they lost on those tourist dollars...).
 
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I tend to agree with you, except I tried to make the following points in my above posts:

1) While there may not be an incentive for large-scale investment (enough to supply the US with all of its oil), there could easily be incentive for investment on some scale. That introduces the possibility for environmental accidents - although it is a very, very small probability that it would any accidents would be of any real significance. But, that is one side of the argument.

2) I'm not saying "don't lift the ban"...but I am saying that it is near impossible for me to buy this as a bid for energy independence. If the numbers support that sort of investment, then that's great...but I do not think they do.


To construe this as some sort of issue that America must pursue for its security seems just as dishonest to me as framing it as an issue that if America pursues will ruin our "pristine" coastlines and destroy ecosystems.

the numbers do support. everyone one who's an expert in oil research says we have plenty of oil to be independent.
 
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the numbers do support. everyone one who's an expert in oil research says we have plenty of oil to be independent.

I'm not talking about quantity of oil (which I honestly even question those numbers), but I am questioning...

...is their an incentive for US companies to invest in the amount of offshore capital equipment necessary for us to actually be energy independent given the current price vs. risk scenarios...

I doubt that it is. That would be A LOT of offshore drilling. Even if you combined it with oil shale + offshore, that is still A LOT of domestic drilling..I'm not sure the numbers support that level of investment. I would like to see the analysis, at least.

I would also like to see some thoughts on whether being completely energy independent is the best thing to do in the interest of our national security...as I alluded to earlier.
 
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I'm not talking about quantity of oil (which I honestly even question those numbers), but I am questioning...

...is their an incentive for US companies to invest in the amount of offshore capital equipment necessary for us to actually be energy independent given the current price vs. risk scenarios...

I doubt that it is. That would be A LOT of offshore drilling. Even if you combined it with oil shale + offshore, that is still A LOT of domestic drilling..I'm not sure the numbers support that level of investment. I would like to see the analysis, at least.

I would also like to see some thoughts on whether being completely energy independent is the best thing to do in the interest of our national security...as I alluded to earlier.
what is the current price vs. risk scenario? I'd think it's extremely good for those evaluating wildcat scenarios.
 
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what is the current price vs. risk scenario? I'd think it's extremely good for those evaluating wildcat scenarios.

You're going to have to help me out, Papa...what do you mean by wildcat?

As for the price vs. risk...that is why I'm asking a lot of these questions..I'm not sure what it is. The price is obviously in favor of finding more oil to sell...the question is where is it cheaper to find/drill that oil. As for risk...there is a certain degree of *political* risk in drilling offshore in that it could be held up by courts...but that seems like it would be short-term next to what appears to be long-term risk of operating in hostile environments.

There will be investment in offshore drilling - I haven't seen anything that would suggest to me that it would be anything near what it would take to claim we're on the road to energy independence.
 
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I'm not talking about quantity of oil (which I honestly even question those numbers), but I am questioning...

...is their an incentive for US companies to invest in the amount of offshore capital equipment necessary for us to actually be energy independent given the current price vs. risk scenarios...

I doubt that it is. That would be A LOT of offshore drilling. Even if you combined it with oil shale + offshore, that is still A LOT of domestic drilling..I'm not sure the numbers support that level of investment. I would like to see the analysis, at least.

I would also like to see some thoughts on whether being completely energy independent is the best thing to do in the interest of our national security...as I alluded to earlier.

i think it is very important to be independent for security reason. i think we increase producing our own oil, we don't have worry about iran, venezuela and russia threatening to stop or slow production.
 

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