Denard thinks he could beat Bolt

#101
#101
bleedingTNorange said:
He's the fastest man in 100m and 200m, that doesn't mean he is the faster person in everything, really not that hard of a concept. If that was the case he'd run the 400, 800 etc etc. there's absolutely no question he is the fastest in the 100 and 200, however assuming he's the fastest in 40 yards, on grass, without blocks, just isn't smart, its a completely different atmosphere. Sure he could be, but he also may not be.

Your shorter guys are your quickest usually in the 40, I don't recall many 6'6" guys running sub 4.2 40's, do you? Heck in just a quick research, nobody over 6'2" has ever run under a 4.3 actually. So like I said, Bolts perfect for the 100m and 200m, but to assume he would dominate the 40 isn't educated. My money would be on a much smaller, quicker guy who accelerates much faster, like a Chris Johnson. Add in the fact that Bolt wouldn't have blocks to push off of which is a huge advantage and I'd put money on there being atleast 5 NFL guys who could beat Bolt in a 40, I think he'd be 4.3+ closer to a 4.4 guy.
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Randy Moss is 6'4" and I believe ran a 4.2 at FSU. I don't know the reliability of that time but it's relevant to the discussion based on height.
 
#103
#103
GahLee said:
These guys train to run the 40, give Bolt time to train like they have and I would bet the house that he smokes any NFL player, college player, horse, car, you name it.
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It has nothing to do with training. It's genetics. The DNA that gives him the ability to run a great 100m and 200m starts to become a hindrance at shorter distances.

Actually, I remember them doing a study on Holliday, basically he was tapped out at around 10s due to genetics, his small frame and legs could not generate additional rps to really go much faster in the 100 and 200m.
 
#104
#104
Il Principo said:
Randy Moss is 6'4" and I believe ran a 4.2 at FSU. I don't know the reliability of that time but it's relevant to the discussion based on height.
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There were reports of him running 4.25s at FSU, just remember even at the combine there is more than one time... ie opinion, let alone the school doing the timing ie opinion. Combine times are more like gymnastics scoring than an official time.

The fastest guy on a football field to me was Bo Jackson especially for his size.
 
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#105
#105
LSU-SIU said:
It has nothing to do with training. It's genetics. The DNA that gives him the ability to run a great 100m and 200m starts to become a hindrance at shorter distances.

Actually, I remember them doing a study on Holliday, basically he was tapped out at around 10s due to genetics, his small frame and legs could not generate additional rps to really go much faster in the 100 and 200m.
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so you are saying that my DNA is what makes me fast and the rest of my family slow? I thought I just outworked them.
 
#110
#110
LSU-SIU said:
We are all bound by our DNA, now it's up to us to make the most of what we were given.
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What if Bolt and/or Denards DNA is different than the actual results we are getting from them now......

oh heck, I will quit typing now. I basically agree with your point, but we could argue it for days, and days, if I wanted to be a dipstick about it. :)


:hi:
 
#111
#111
LSU-SIU said:
It has nothing to do with training. It's genetics. The DNA that gives him the ability to run a great 100m and 200m starts to become a hindrance at shorter distances.
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To whom are you referring? Bolt? It has been repeatedly demonstrated that the perception of him being "slower" at shorter distances doesn't withstand scrutiny. On his 9.58 run he was ahead of the field (obviously for keeps) by the 20m split.
 
#112
#112
hndog609 said:
To whom are you referring? Bolt? It has been repeatedly demonstrated that the perception of him being "slower" at shorter distances doesn't withstand scrutiny. On his 9.58 run he was ahead of the field (obviously for keeps) by the 20m split.
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It has not been demonstrated, the only way to demonstrate it... is to have them race. All of those guys are 100m to 200m guys. All of them are going to run into the same problem when you go to the shorter distance.

I would say most of those guys would not even compete if the distance were 40 yards. Just to show you how stupid the claims are on this thread about sub 4s 40 are.

Bolts best 100m is about .4s faster than Holliday, Holliday's combine 40 was officially 4.34s, so Bolt would have to beat Holiday by roughly the same margin in the 40 yard dash. Yet the majority of Bolts speed is after the 40y mark. Makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

I would be surprised if Bolt were in the top 10 in the world at a 40 yard race. Without blocks I would probably surprised if he made the top 20. He is not the fastest person in the world, he is the fastest at the 100 and 200m, that is it.

Some of these claims that these players are making are not completely off track. Now if they say they can beat beat Bolt on 100m track on an average day, I would say they are probably a little off.
 
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#113
#113
LSU-SIU said:
It has not been demonstrated, the only way to demonstrate it... is to have them race. All of those guys are 100m to 200m guys. All of them are going to run into the same problem when you go to the shorter distance.

I would say most of those guys would not even compete if the distance were 40 yards. Just to show you how stupid the claims are on this thread about sub 4s 40 are.

Bolts best 100m is about .4s faster than Holliday, Holliday's combine 40 was officially 4.34s, so Bolt would have to beat Holiday by roughly the same margin in the 40 yard dash. Yet the majority of Bolts speed is after the 40y mark. Makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

I would be surprised if Bolt were in the top 10 in the world at a 40 yard race.
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From post #96

People are dying for a real apples to apples and since we've got nothing to work with putting Bolt on turf our apples-apples has to happen on a track. I've already cited that we have Bolt clearing 60m in 6.31 and D Robinson's best at that distance is 6.81. I don't think you and many others have actually noodled out the implications of that comparison. Let's say Denard, who is universally acknowledged as damn fast for a football player, was running even with Bolt at 40 yards. With 40 yards being a bit over 36m that would mean Bolt would have to surge ahead by .5 seconds in 24m. You've said you're trying to take a "common sense" approach to this. Good, read that last sentence again and crank up that common sense.

A .5 second difference is a Death Star vs Alderaan beatdown even at 100m. At 40 yards a .5 difference is what separates an elite burner WR and a D lineman. We're talking a .5 difference over 26 yards. I know and you know that idea is an absurdity. The explanation is, likewise, just as obvious to both of us. Bolt would have to be way, WAY out in front of Robinson at 36m (40y) to be .5 ahead at 60m.
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As for Holliday's 40 time these aren't your observations?

Take for instance the official time for Trindon Holliday was 4.34s, yet others recorded him as low as 4.21/2s. And are you telling me Patrick Peterson is faster than Holliday because he ran a 4.31s. I think not.
Trindon Holliday Runs a 4.21 sec. 40 Yard Dash at the NFL Combine - YouTube
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Combine times are more like gymnastics scoring than an official time.
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#114
#114
hndog609

You can keep posting these dumb things but it's just speculating. I can post all kinds of numbers too. Nobody, let me tell right now, NOBODY is going to beat Holliday by .4 of second in a 40 yard dash. Then you use 60m times in there, 60m is over 50 percent more distance than 40 yards.

As for Holliday's 40 time these aren't your observations?
What?
None of the observations are yours, it's all speculation. As far as Holliday's times, he was fastest 100/200m guy in college at various times, yet Peterson ran faster than him at the combine... officially.

I see nothing extraordinary about Bolt's first 40m let alone yard, he is solid but that is about it. Once you go to 40m or even yards you open it all up to the smaller guys sub 5'10. Most of Bolts speed is after 40 yards.

As far as his 40yards(est) to 100m speed, that is not matched by anyone, not even close. Take the blocks out of the equation, the football smaller guys would eat him alive at the 40 yard dash.

Take the blocks out, I would imagine 5-10 guys at the NFL level could take him at the 40 yard dash.
 
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#115
#115
LSU-SIU said:
hndog609

You can keep posting these dumb things but it's just speculating. I can post all kinds of numbers too. Nobody, let me tell right now, NOBODY is going to beat Holliday by .4 of second in a 40 yard dash. Then you use 60m times in there, 60m is over 50 percent more distance than 40 yards.

As for Holliday's 40 time these aren't your observations?
What?
None of the observations are yours, it's all speculation. As far as Holliday's times, he was fastest 100/200m guy in college at various times, yet Peterson ran faster than him at the combine... officially.

I see nothing extraordinary about Bolt's first 40m let alone yard, he is solid but that is about it. Once you go to 40m or even yards you open it all up to the smaller guys sub 5'10. Most of Bolts speed is after 40 yards.

As far as his 40yards(est) to 100m speed, that is not matched by anyone, not even close. Take the blocks out of the equation, the football smaller guys would eat him alive at the 40 yard dash.

Take the blocks out, I would imagine 5-10 guys at the NFL level could take him at the 40 yard dash.
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Holy geez are you THAT obtuse? Instead of making this scattershot I want to know EXACTLY what you're claiming is "speculation" on my part in the portion of post 96 I quoted. Speculated on Bolt's 60m time? Denard's? That Denard is considered a damn fast football player over 40 yards? That there was a whole half second difference between those two times? That the difference between those two times, assuming Robinson was managing to merely keep up with Bolt as far as 40yds, would have to be made up over the next 26yds? That it's ludicrous to think Bolt would be picking up that whole half second in that short a distance? That the only possible explanation is that Bolt was already pulling away by the 40yd mark?

I'm not exactly going out on a limb anywhere I can see. I'll be glad to listen if you think you can actually make a logical arguement to the contrary.

Aside from your wholly inexplicable resistance to accept the demonstrable I'm honestly baffled that you could be so lost on what I was getting at by citing your observations on Holliday's 40 times and your quip about Combine 40's in general. Hell's bells man I AGREE with you that Holliday's 4.34 looks very dubious. What that means is quit fracking trying to argue what Bolt (or anyone) could do to that 4.34 as I don't have much confidence in that 4.34 in the first place. Honestly, do you? Now think how that might change the comparison.

Oh, and as for another observation Bolt's 6.31 is a whole .23 faster over 60m than the fastest time I've found for Holliday. That's a big enough difference (if you're pretending to know anything about track don't try to tell me .23 in a short sprint isn't a BIG difference) to really put some lead in the pants of Bolt not being fast at shorter distances. (Or is that too speculative for you?)
 
#116
#116
LSU-SIU said:
hndog609

You can keep posting these dumb things but it's just speculating. I can post all kinds of numbers too. Nobody, let me tell right now, NOBODY is going to beat Holliday by .4 of second in a 40 yard dash. Then you use 60m times in there, 60m is over 50 percent more distance than 40 yards.

As for Holliday's 40 time these aren't your observations?
What?
None of the observations are yours, it's all speculation. As far as Holliday's times, he was fastest 100/200m guy in college at various times, yet Peterson ran faster than him at the combine... officially.

I see nothing extraordinary about Bolt's first 40m let alone yard, he is solid but that is about it. Once you go to 40m or even yards you open it all up to the smaller guys sub 5'10. Most of Bolts speed is after 40 yards.

As far as his 40yards(est) to 100m speed, that is not matched by anyone, not even close. Take the blocks out of the equation, the football smaller guys would eat him alive at the 40 yard dash.

Take the blocks out, I would imagine 5-10 guys at the NFL level could take him at the 40 yard dash.
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(Im not arguing against your points, but) Id like to give bolt 1 year prepping for the race, and then see how it goes. I am 100% certain that would change things. preparation, perspiration, domination.
 
#117
#117
hndog609

You can go on and on but you are just speculating, you ignore what you want but include what you want. It's actually a trick scenario started by Chris Johnson. I can beat him in a 40 yard dash situation. No blocks, maybe grass, very short race... 120 feet.

I would have no problem believing under that situation that Bolt could be beaten by quite a few guys, matter of fact I would be surprised if he beat them all.

My numbers make about as much sense as you are going make out of this. There is no way over an average that anyone is going to beat Holliday in a 40 yard race by .4s. I am sorry but that is crazy talk. Bolt can barely do that in 100m and his times are much better after 40 yards.

Or is that too speculative for you?
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Yes. He is basically a 9.9-10s guy until you get about 40 yards out. No blocks, maybe grass... and yes, I think the smaller guys eat him for lunch on 120feet.

No blocks, grass... I'll take both Johnson and Holliday over Bolt for $100. Add 20m or so to that, grass or no grass I am out of that bet.
 
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#118
#118
LSU-SIU said:
hndog609

You can go on and on but you are just speculating,

Then you are that obtuse. I was hoping I was wrong. I asked you to cite my speculation and I get this. Query answered I suppose.

I would have no problem believing under that situation that Bolt could be beaten by quite a few guys, matter of fact I would be surprised if he beat them all.

And, God help us, I'm the guy being accused of speculating.

My numbers make about as much sense as you are going make out of this. There is no way over an average that anyone is going to beat Holliday in a 40 yard race by .4s. I am sorry but that is crazy talk. Bolt can barely do that in 100m and his times are much better after 40 yards.

I tried, really hard, in two separate posts, to address this so now we'll just slowly walk our way through it. On what, EXACTLY, are you basing your "beat Holiday by .4s" figure? Exactly what figure are you using for Bolt's time and exactly where did you get it? (Especially if you're trying to attribute it to me) Are you saying you REALLY believe that 4.34 is the best Holliday can do for 40yds? (I think there's at least three posts now where you call the veracity of that time, at least IYO, into question) If not, wouldn't that change, regardless of what Bolt's attributed time was, the difference between the two times?


Yes. He is basically a 9.9-10s guy until you get about 40 yards out. No blocks, maybe grass... and yes, I think the smaller guys eat him for lunch on 120feet.
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And, no surprise, we finish with another flourish of speculative opinion.
 
#119
#119
That's exactly the common sense I'm referencing ^^^

If bolt can only best holiday by .4 over a fulle 100 meters, what the heck makes you think he would beat holiday by .4 over just 36m? C'mon seriously, try and be reasonable.
 
#120
#120
GatorBill said:
(Im not arguing against your points, but) Id like to give bolt 1 year prepping for the race, and then see how it goes. I am 100% certain that would change things. preparation, perspiration, domination.
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I don't think he'd need near that long. Mostly Bolt would have to figure out what starting stance gave him the best launch sans blocks. That would be a little foreign to him at first.
 
#121
#121
hndog609,

I did my own math equation here...

Using Bolt's WR run, notice WR run so the best he has ever run...

He had a 40 meter time of 4.64

That equates to 43.74 yards

So he ran 43.74 yards in 4.64 seconds

I found his split for 30-40m, divided that into yards, and he ran 0.0786 seconds per yard in that stretch.

The difference of 43.74 yards, which is what he ran, and a 40 yard race, is 3.74 yards. So I multiplied 3.74 yards x 0.0786 which is how fast he ran each yard during that section.

You get a time of .2939, that's the "extra" time basically, that he ran from 40 yard-40m line.

So if you subtract .2939 from his finish time of 4.64 in 40 meters, you get, 4.346. So he ran a 4.346 forty, not subtracting reaction time.

Now, his reaction time was 0.146 in this race, so take off his reaction time and he ran a 4.2 forty yard dash.

So automatically this discredits any thought of him running a sub 4 forty. Also, he had the wind at his back and was going off of blocks.
So once again I repeat, running a football forty, on grass, no blocks, he's a 4.3-4.4 guy.
 
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#122
#122
hndog609 said:
I don't think he'd need near that long. Mostly Bolt would have to figure out what starting stance gave him the best launch sans blocks. That would be a little foreign to him at first.
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I was always faster (and this is just ME, I realize that) coming from my WR stance....with the back leg probably 6" or so farther back. Coming out of a 3 Point always slowed me down.


But yeah, he figures that out, and the game is over.
 
#123
#123
bleedingTNorange said:
That's exactly the common sense I'm referencing ^^^

If bolt can only best holiday by .4 over a fulle 100 meters, what the heck makes you think he would beat holiday by .4 over just 36m? C'mon seriously, try and be reasonable.
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Yeah, I fail to see his point at all. Its not like Bolt would be slow poke at the 40 but shorter distance and no blocks is a killer for someone that size.

My honest opinion is I don't think Bolt would be in the top 20 in the world if such a race existed. That doesn't mean he isn't fast, as he certainly is.

Holliday is the quickest I have ever seen from a stand still (receiving punts) up to full speed in football, now his hands suck big time, which the Texans will figure out very soon.
 
#124
#124
LSU-SIU said:
Yeah, I fail to see his point at all. Its not like Bolt would be slow poke at the 40 but shorter distance and no blocks is a killer for someone that size.

My honest opinion is I don't think Bolt would be in the top 20 in the world if such a race existed. That doesn't mean he isn't fast, as he certainly is.

Holliday is the quickest I have ever seen from a stand still (receiving punts) up to full speed in football, now his hands suck big time, which the Texans will figure out very soon.
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Yes see my above math, bolt is a 4.3-4.4 guy
 
#125
#125
bleedingTNorange said:
Yes see my above math, bolt is a 4.3-4.4 guy
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Yeah, I could definitely see 4.2ish with blocks and 4.3 without block. The reaction time I don't know, to me it's very subjective which is why you get different times at the combine.

I would have no problem picking Johnson and Holliday, I don't know about Denard.

Bolt has an almost unbelievable 40-100m time though, I mean he leaves those guys in the dust. It's pretty neat to watch. It's a setup situation by Chris Johnson, which I think he is probably right. It's like watching Kobe Bryant playing the buy in the little arcade basketball game... that guy wiped him every time on David Letterman. It seems like it's the same thing but it's not.
 
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