Denard thinks he could beat Bolt

[hndog609]

hndog609,

I did my own math equation here...

Using Bolt's WR run, notice WR run so the best he has ever run...

He had a 40 meter time of 4.64

That equates to 43.74 yards

So he ran 43.74 yards in 4.64 seconds

I found his split for 30-40m, divided that into yards, and he ran 0.0786 seconds per yard in that stretch.

The difference of 43.74 yards, which is what he ran, and a 40 yard race, is 3.74 yards. So I multiplied 3.74 yards x 0.0786 which is how fast he ran each yard during that section.

You get a time of .2939, that's the "extra" time basically, that he ran from 40 yard-40m line.

So if you subtract .2939 from his finish time of 4.64 in 40 meters, you get, 4.346. So he ran a 4.346 forty, not subtracting reaction time.

Now, his reaction time was 0.146 in this race, so take off his reaction time and he ran a 4.2 forty yard dash.

The only thing this changes from post #66 is that your math came up with a 4.2 vs the 4.1 you cited. Here is the quote and link I cited in post #76.

Combine experimenting with 40-yard dash timing - CBSSports.com

You really need to read this and understand what the different timing means. Here's the part you simply must understand to correctly grasp that nuance.

However, according to coaches and scouts who discussed this with The Sports Xchange, the FAT times are expected to be .20 to .24 seconds slower than the relative times recorded using methods the Combine has gone with since 1990, and before.

You're clearly no dummy bTNo but you persistently miss what the above means. Football players running FAT times are looking at having .2 or more added to their times. That 4.64 for Bolt IS a FAT time so to make it square with a football time it's subtracted.


So automatically this discredits any thought of him running a sub 4 forty. Also, he had the wind at his back and was going off of blocks.
So once again I repeat, running a football forty, on grass, no blocks, he's a 4.3-4.4 guy.

Now this last part is messy but let's try to make some sense of it.

On his 9.58 if timed as a football 40 then he's damn sure near if not under 4.00. And once again the math YOU cite along with the timing experts discussing FAT time conversions absolutely supports that contention.

Sub 4.00 on turf (just for clarification the oft-cited 4.24 by CJ was NOT run on grass) without blocks. Nah. Faster than CJ's time? Once Bolt figured out how to start from the different stance I've yet to hear anyone make an arguement that sticks to say he couldn't.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Ok so give bolt the .2 you're talking about, use my math, and he's a 4 second flat 40. Now put him on "turf", with no blocks and no wind, which he had in his WR run, and he's back at a 4.2+

The point of this all is this...HE IS NOT A
SUB 4 FORTY GUY AS MANY TRY TO SAY.

The bigger part of this all, it's too close to give anyone the down right W. Bolt appears to be a 4.2-4.4 guy, CJ ran a 4.24, so it's too close IMO to say decisively either way this guy would for sure win.

That's why I say ESPN should make it happen.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Apparently Bolt didn't want to do it.

Chris Johnson vs. Usain Bolt Odds

I would take Holliday/Demps/Ford with block on a surface and I don't know about Johnson unless it's on grass but if no blocks and grass, then I would take Johnson as well.

The blocks are a big one and the shorter distance, go to 60m and Bolt beats them all from 60m to 200m. Once you go under 50m the small guys then have a major advantage especially with no block. Completely different beast. IMHO

And one study showed that Bolt’s 40-yard split at the Beijing Games was 4.35

Lets say you knock another .15 off, you are still talking a 4.2 guy using blocks. Nobody is running a sub 4s.

 

[hndog609]

Ok so give bolt the .2 you're talking about, use my math, and he's a 4 second flat 40. Now put him on "turf", with no blocks and no wind, which he had in his WR run, and he's back at a 4.2+

The point of this all is this...HE IS NOT A
SUB 4 FORTY GUY AS MANY TRY TO SAY.

The bigger part of this all, it's too close to give anyone the down right W. Bolt appears to be a 4.2-4.4 guy, CJ ran a 4.24, so it's too close IMO to say decisively either way this guy would for sure win.

That's why I say ESPN should make it happen.

:thumbsup: THERE it is! Now you're getting it!

Ok, let's strike while the fire's hot. IF people are going to argue that Bolt can beat 4.00 (or at least scare the hell out of it) on the track when measured the same way as football players currently are then you have to concede it's not really all that far fetched...right? All that's required is anybody taking either side of that arguement be certain everybody understands the criteria and caveats involved.

Now what you have here with this epiphany is an understanding that while it's probably unreasonable to think Bolt is going to run some kind of 4.1 or less 40yd AS football playes do (turf, no blocks, etc) it absolutely IS reasonable that he could better CJ's time. That sound fair?

 

[LSU-SIU]

Now what you have here with this epiphany is an understanding that while it's probably unreasonable to think Bolt is going to run some kind of 4.1 or less 40yd AS football playes do (turf, no blocks, etc) it absolutely IS reasonable that he could better CJ's time. That sound fair?

I don't think he said he couldn't beat Johnson, it's the opposite, we think it's completely possible for others to beat Bolt on average.

I would like to see it, I think there is probably 3-5 NFL guys that could beat him in the 40. Unless they race, who knows?

I think the best guess, is Bolt is a 4.15-4.35s guy with blocks, however you want to measure it, which is possible for several NFL guys to be in that range, if not better. IMHO He is not a sub 4 guy in the traditional sense of the 40 yard dash like the combine.

It was a setup by Johnson. I can't find the video but it was like Kobe trying to beat this guy. Complete setup.
Basketball Arcade Insanity - YouTube

 

[GatorBill]

Ok so give bolt the .2 you're talking about, use my math, and he's a 4 second flat 40. Now put him on "turf", with no blocks and no wind, which he had in his WR run, and he's back at a 4.2+

The point of this all is this...HE IS NOT A
SUB 4 FORTY GUY AS MANY TRY TO SAY.

The bigger part of this all, it's too close to give anyone the down right W. Bolt appears to be a 4.2-4.4 guy, CJ ran a 4.24, so it's too close IMO to say decisively either way this guy would for sure win.

That's why I say ESPN should make it happen.

Denard still is not going to beat him.

 

[hndog609]

I don't think he said he couldn't beat Johnson, it's the opposite, we think it's completely possible for others to beat Bolt on average.

I would like to see it, I think there is probably 3-5 NFL guys that could beat him in the 40. Unless they race, who knows?

I think the best guess, is Bolt is a 4.15-4.35s guy with blocks, however you want to measure it, which is possible for several NFL guys to be in that range, if not better. IMHO He is not a sub 4 guy in the traditional sense of the 40 yard dash like the combine.

I think the fact you've found yourself having previously questioned Bolt's short speed and now stating he might even be a sub-4.2 guy is telling. (In a good way)

The real issue I had was with the inexplicable arguement of what Bolt "couldn't" do. This idea that, somehow, he just wasn't that fast in the short distances and that it was obvious to some that CJ et. al. would certainly be able to take him at 40yds. I've never heard this perception objectively quantified but it remains held by many. I don't claim, nor have I ever, what Bolt could actually run under combine conditions. I don't know. Nobody does. I DO know what he has done on the track and I DO have benchmarks to work with at various times and distances and DO have comparative numbers against a number of football players running under the same conditions. (track, blocks, apples-apples)

I'd agree with your last statement that it really doesn't seem realistic to try to argue Bolt (or anyone) is going to be sub-4.0 as measured under combine conditions. That's not the same thing however as saying there's no articulable reason to state it's not entirely possible that Bolt could cover 40yds faster than anyone else.*

*I don't want Bolt to run at the combine. I know you share my...concerns...about 40 times at the combine. (and don't get me started on college/HS times) I don't care if anybody races each other directly either. FAT time equipment is available and the times can be trusted. Get an independant body to have them (Bolt vs whoever) run on opposite sides of the world at different times for all I care. I just want reliable data points.

 

[LSU-SIU]

I think the fact you've found yourself having previously questioning Bolt's short speed and now stating he might even be a sub-4.2 guy is telling. (In a good way)

4.2s with blocks, Patrick Peterson ran a 4.31s with no blocks and he was like the 2nd to 3rd fastest guy on LSU. Basically Patrick Peterson who I think is fast but not world class could stay if not beat Bolt in the 40.

I see nothing to show me Bolt is at the top of the 40 yard dash game, if there is such a thing. As far as anything over 60 meters to 200 meters, Bolt has it hands down, not even worth discussing. The guy is fast but what makes you good at one thing can hinder you at another.

Like you said, the combine times have to be taken with a grain of salt. If I were to guess, the fastest guys in the NFL right now are Holliday and Demps, possibly Johnson, Ford, etc.

It's a setup... no blocks Bolts times go down drastically. That is why you don't see many guys running sub 4.3 at the combine that are over 6'3, if at all. The most impressive combine IMHO was Calvin Johnson at 6'5 and 239lb running a 4.35s.

 

[hndog609]

I see nothing to show me Bolt is at the top of the 40 yard dash game, if there is such a thing..

Give me something demonstrable that says otherwise. I can handle it somewhat if you want to go with "my perception/my belief/IMO" but realize nobody's got any reason to give it more credibility than that. Bolt's times are not in a vacuum, there are hard data points that allow real comparisons. It's not the same as having "The Answer" right in front of you but it beats the crap out of "IMO" if that's all the counter-arguement has.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Give me something demonstrable that says otherwise. I can handle it somewhat if you want to go with "my perception/my belief/IMO" but realize nobody's got any reason to give it more credibility than that. Bolt's times are not in a vacuum, there are hard data points that allow real comparisons. It's not the same as having "The Answer" right in front of you but it beats the crap out of "IMO" if that's all the counter-arguement has.

It's opinion on both sides, but it's reasonable opinion that he is not going to blow the top guys in the NFL out of the water. He doesn't race without block... take the blocks out and he is going to be hindered... he is 6'5.

There is no right answer but there is a reason why you don't see taller guys run the combine under 4.3s, it's a great setup by Johnson.

I think Bolt is the fastest by a mile at the 100/200m and probably the fastest 6'5 guy if he were to run the 40 yard dash.

 

[Thunndarr]

It's opinion on both sides, but it's reasonable opinion that he is not going to blow the top guys in the NFL out of the water. He doesn't race without block... take the blocks out and he is going to be hindered... he is 6'5.

There is no right answer but there is a reason why you don't see taller guys run the combine under 4.3s, it's a great setup by Johnson.

I think Bolt is the fastest by a mile at the 100/200m and probably the fastest 6'5 guy if he were to run the 40 yard dash.

Yes, Bolt is 6'5". And yes, usually, tall guys lack acceleration. Except Bolt is the exception to the rule. He's a tall guy with world class acceleration AND top speed. He excels at both.

Thus, your premise that he'd be hindered during 40 is false.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Yes, Bolt is 6'5". And yes, usually, tall guys lack acceleration. Except Bolt is the exception to the rule. He's a tall guy with world class acceleration AND top speed. He excels at both.

Thus, your premise that he'd be hindered during 40 is false.

He is not bad with blocks. Nothing I said is false, it's opinion. The only way you would know is if they race, which is why they have races.

He is basically a 4.2-4.3 guy with blocks, very good for someone that size. Come talk to me without the blocks... no way attempts to race one of these guys in the 40 yard dash.

sub 4.0 or 4.1 is a pipedream, someone might be able to run in the 4.1s but it ain't going to be him. It's actually very possible that Calvin Johnson could beat him in the 40.

They are judging Bolts 40 at around 4.35s, Johnson's 40 was 4.35 at the combine. Bolt used blocks but had to go by the gun whereas Johnson had no blocks but did not have to go by the gun. I would say it would be close, neither guy is going to beat the 40 sprinters in my opinion on average.

 

[sanddune50]

Bolt doesn't use blocks in the relay races and still has blazing speed. Jamaican relay team set a new world record in the 4x100 due to the final 2 legs from Blake and Bolt. The Americans were winning until Blake caught up with Tyson Gay. I felt bad when Blake handed the baton to Bolt and 19 year old Ryan Bailey had to race him straight up. Truth be told, I think there is probably some guys that could get him in the 40 on grass, but hopefully they would realize that would not make them the fastest guy in the world. Bolt could smoke them in anything past 40 yards.

 

[hndog609]

He is basically a 4.2-4.3 guy with blocks, very good for someone that size.

You need to caveat this for accuracy. It has been repeatedly demonstrated how if timed the way football players are timed in the 40yd dash his track times are all the hell over 4.00. That's your starting point and it isn't an opinion. If I tried to give you an absolute I'd be giving an opinion/speculating. I'm not. I'm telling you the math easily puts Bolt at 4.1 or better for a football 40 off blocks on a track, not 4.2-4.3.

If you want to argue no blocks, turf vs track surface, etc and what that would mean for Bolts time then be my guest but realize you're the one speculating at that point. (As would all of us)

 

[LSU-SIU]

You need to caveat this for accuracy. It has been repeatedly demonstrated how if timed the way football players are timed in the 40yd dash his track times are all the hell over 4.00. That's your starting point and it isn't an opinion. If I tried to give you an absolute I'd be giving an opinion/speculating. I'm not. I'm telling you the math easily puts Bolt at 4.1 or better for a football 40 off blocks on a track, not 4.2-4.3.

If you want to argue no blocks, turf vs track surface, etc and what that would mean for Bolts time then be my guest but realize you're the one speculating at that point. (As would all of us)

It's opinion, not fact. Look up what a fact is, and look up what an opinion is.

There is nothing speculator about what Bolt does in the first 40 yards, he is about even give or take with most of the other 100m guys on average. All his work comes about over 40m, nobody touches him from there.

And one study showed that Bolt’s 40-yard split at the Beijing Games was 4.35.

Still an opinion or speculating but sounds about right to me. Add the block and subtract the gun and you are probably in the 4.3 range.

 

[hndog609]

It's opinion, not fact. Look up what a fact is, and look up what an opinion is.

There is nothing speculator about what Bolt does in the first 40 yards, he is about even give or take with most of the other 100m guys on average. All his work comes about over 40m, nobody touches him from there.



Still an opinion or speculating but sounds about right to me. Add the block and subtract the gun and you are probably in the 4.3 range.

:lolabove: This coming from the guy who back on post 115 was challenged to precisely articulate his charge of "speculation" on my post. This challenge was met with crickets. Hopefully this one will do better.

Direct challenge: cite the source of this quote.

And one study showed that Bolt’s 40-yard split at the Beijing Games was 4.35.

I'm very interested if that's the raw time/distance 40yd split. If so, it is NOT the football time. Please see post #126.

 

[LSU-SIU]

:lolabove: This coming from the guy who back on post 115 was challenged to precisely articulate his charge of "speculation" on my post. This challenge was met with crickets. Hopefully this one will do better.
Direct challenge: cite the source of this quote.

I'm very interested if that's the raw time/distance 40yd split. If so, it is NOT the football time. Please see post #126.

The source has been previously posted, as to the rest as with the cite, it's opinion.

Everything you are talking about is opinion.

I would place a bet on quite a few football players beating him in a 40 yard dash. It's all speculation and I see nothing great about him at very short distances. Just my take. I am not going to agree with you.

 

[hndog609]

The source has been previously posted, as to the rest as with the cite, it's opinion.

Where?

Everything you are talking about is opinion.

Show me. Be specific.

.

.

 

[LSU-SIU]

.

It's all opinion, go read what an opinion is. Matter of fact you could have two people that have the same time, are they the same speed... depends... the only way you can tell is if they race. Everything else is opinion, some opinions are reasonable, others are not.... like a sub 4s.

The article was posted, I am not going back through the thread as you are just going to continue this.

In my opinion Bolt is the fastest person between 60-100m, anything other than that is opinion or speculation at best. My opinion is he would lucky to be in the top 20 worldwide, but others opinions may vary.

 

[hndog609]

It's all opinion, go read what an opinion is. Matter of fact you could have two people that have the same time, are the same speed... depends... the only way you can tell is if they race. Everything else is opinion, some opinions are reasonable, others are not.... like a sub 4s.

The article was posted, I am not going back through the thread as you are just going to continue this.

You consider yourself well versed in the definition of "opinion". I'll ask again...what exactly are you saying is opinion?

 

[LSU-SIU]

You consider yourself well versed in the definition of "opinion". I'll ask again...what exactly are you saying is opinion?

Almost everything you have post to date, all these splits, all the guess work, all these times, etc. The only way you can tell is if the guys race.

Bolt isn't a dumb guy, he would be an idiot to race any of these guys at the 40. You'll never see it.

 

[hndog609]

Almost everything you have post to date, all these splits, all the guess work, all these times, etc. The only way you can tell is if the guys race.

Bolt isn't a dumb guy, he would be an idiot to race any of these guys at the 40. You'll never see it.

Last time before you're simply stamped FAIL. The IAAF splits are "opinion"? What times? What guesswork?

Dude, this isnt rocket science. You make a charge (question the validity of someone else's claim) then you need to be able to explain why. Otherwise nobody has any reason to give you any credibility at all. Can you make your case or are you limited to falling back on "If I don't want to believe it I'll just dismiss it as someone else's opinion."?

 

[Thunndarr]

Who is the world's fastest runner in the 40-yard dash

But it is Olympic athlete, Ben Johnson, who was believed to have run 40 yards faster than any human in history. Johnson is best known for injecting steroids and winning the 100 meters at the 1988 Olympics in Seoul in 9.79 seconds, only to have his gold medal and world record stripped after failing a post-race drug test.

Timing officials have since broken down that famed race into 10-meter increments, and Johnson was so preposterously fast that he went through 50 meters in 5.52 seconds and 60 meters in 6.37 - both under the current world records at the time at those distances. He went through 40 yards that day in 4.38 seconds. But, no matter how fast he was on steroids, Usain Bolt's legal 9.69 (9.55 without slowing) 100m time (40 yards of it) blows it away. Usain Bolt's 40 yard during his 100m record was likely a VERY low 4 such as 4.09 or 4.02.

 

[Thunndarr]

Michigan Football: No, Denard Robinson Cannot Beat Usain Bolt in a 40-Yard Dash | Bleacher Report

Rawson: "Forty yards, if he was being hand-timed by a scout and reacting to his movement - not electronically timed the way they do it [in track and field] - his 40-yard dash on a track, in spikes, would be 3.73 seconds."

Host: [Laughter] "He would run a sub four-second 40-yard dash?"

Rawson: "Listen, I did the math as though it was electronically timed, which it's not for football — electronically timed — and it came out to 3.97 seconds."

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Yes it is established that using his track time would get him around a 4 second forty when you subtract the football time difference.

However, it's only common sense to realize that with starting blocks, with wind at your back, and with a track surface, you are going to post a faster time than you would doing it football style.

So if the best Bolt can run, in track conditions is a 4 flat, common sense should tell you he isn't going to run the same or better in football condition.

The numbers vary on what adding football condition would result in, this is along away blocks, track surface, the wind...but the point is his time would only go up from 4 seconds, not down or stay even.

Using common sense, Bolt is somewhere around a 4.2 in football conditions, but there's no way to be positive. Maybe blocks have a bigger impact on him because of his height, so maybe that puts him at 4.3. Maybe his body doesn't transition well to turf and now he's a 4.35 guy, and maybe with no wind at his back it effects more than though and he's a 4.4 guy.

The point is, in ideal track conditions, on a WR run he put up around a 4 forty. Add in all the conditions of a football time and it's common sense that number goes UP and not DOWN. There's a reason Bolt, who is a man of entertainment, won't run this race, it'd dissapoint fans.