Do the actions of George Zimmerman threaten 2nd Amendment rights of others?

#1

Dr Dread

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#1
When gun law opponents stay silent in a case like the murder of Trayvon Martin while George Zimmerman wraps himself in the 2nd Amendment protections and "Stand Your Ground" laws, does this not do a disservice to the cause they support?

I must disclose that I am a supporter of some gun laws and an opponent of "Stand Your Ground" laws, but in this particular case, I don't see how either apply. This is a case about murder, but that won't stop agenda-based groups from trying to make it a case about gun control.
 
#3
#3
this will likely devolve into a 2nd amendment debate with anti-gun rights people citing this tragedy as a reason to disarm the populace
 
#4
#4
When gun law opponents stay silent in a case like the murder of Trayvon Martin while George Zimmerman wraps himself in the 2nd Amendment protections and "Stand Your Ground" laws, does this not do a disservice to the cause they support?

I must disclose that I am a supporter of some gun laws and an opponent of "Stand Your Ground" laws, but in this particular case, I don't see how either apply. This is a case about murder, but that won't stop agenda-based groups from trying to make it a case about gun control.

For starters you're already too far ahead of yourself. This is pending going to a grand jury but regardless of how it turns out eventually (and this case is a good deal more muddled with the dearth of released evidence, see the thread in the Pub section) it's certainly not been declared a murder yet.

As to your specific premise of what may come of this and gun laws there'll be the expected bleating from the usual suspects but it's unlikely to change anything. Change what? SYG?

The thing many people don't understand about SYG is it's not some cart blanche reason to start shooting everything. In fact some places use a phrase that might be more accurate; no duty to retreat. The reason for this is that, under the old way of looking at things, people that were universally acknowledged to have been at risk could still find themselves having to defend themselves for, well, defending themselves. Literally where the would be victim becomes the bad guy and the poor, misunderstood guy that was only wanting to ask the time (but happened to be wearing a ski mask and carrying a machete) was the victim. Hell, everyone could even agree that the shooter was likely in danger but, in their opinion, (not that their sorry butts were on the line) the shooter could have tried harder to get away. Do you really want the benefit of the doubt to always be with the attacker? I surely don't.

Again, saying you "were scared" and "standing your ground" is not sufficient to shoot somebody under any state's interpretation of Castle Doctrine. If there wasn't an identifiable threat that would legally be considered reasonable to explain one's use of deadly force SYG isn't going to save you. If you were to argue it muddies up the "grey areas" then, as I've stated above, I'd rather it muddy things up on the side of the guy claiming SD than the guy that everybody could know from the outset was the bad guy but still ended up being treated as the victim.

YMMV
 
#6
#6
For starters you're already too far ahead of yourself. This is pending going to a grand jury but regardless of how it turns out eventually (and this case is a good deal more muddled with the dearth of released evidence, see the thread in the Pub section) it's certainly not been declared a murder yet.

As to your specific premise of what may come of this and gun laws there'll be the expected bleating from the usual suspects but it's unlikely to change anything. Change what? SYG?

The thing many people don't understand about SYG is it's not some cart blanche reason to start shooting everything. In fact some places use a phrase that might be more accurate; no duty to retreat. The reason for this is that, under the old way of looking at things, people that were universally acknowledged to have been at risk could still find themselves having to defend themselves for, well, defending themselves. Literally where the would be victim becomes the bad guy and the poor, misunderstood guy that was only wanting to ask the time (but happened to be wearing a ski mask and carrying a machete) was the victim. Hell, everyone could even agree that the shooter was likely in danger but, in their opinion, (not that their sorry butts were on the line) the shooter could have tried harder to get away. Do you really want the benefit of the doubt to always be with the attacker? I surely don't.

Again, saying you "were scared" and "standing your ground" is not sufficient to shoot somebody under any state's interpretation of Castle Doctrine. If there wasn't an identifiable threat that would legally be considered reasonable to explain one's use of deadly force SYG isn't going to save you. If you were to argue it muddies up the "grey areas" then, as I've stated above, I'd rather it muddy things up on the side of the guy claiming SD than the guy that everybody could know from the outset was the bad guy but still ended up being treated as the victim.

YMMV

The only reason that he has not been charged with murder is that he's hiding behind a law that does not apply to the case, therefore bringing undo scrutiny to the law instead of his actions. Typically, if you shoot an unarmed minor who you decided to confront, you are arrested, charged, and then have the right to present a defense as to your innocence. This is why I call it a murder case.

What makes this one different is that it's being viewed under a law that may or may not be a good law, but has no bearing on this case. Therefore bringing undo scrutiny to the law. There is nothing about the law that applies to this case.
 
#7
#7
The only reason that he has not been charged with murder is that he's hiding behind a law that does not apply to the case, therefore bringing undo scrutiny to the law instead of his actions. Typically, if you shoot an unarmed minor who you decided to confront, you are arrested, charged, and then have the right to present a defense as to your innocence. This is why I call it a murder case.

What makes this one different is that it's being viewed under a law that may or may not be a good law, but has no bearing on this case. Therefore bringing undo scrutiny to the law. There is nothing about the law that applies to this case.

I'm assuming then you haven't been following the Pub thread. There's no sense in recounting it here but things are most assuredly not as cut and dried as you seem to think they are at present. Go check out the thread, you may have some good input to go along with getting more up to speed on the case itself.
 
#9
#9
This case should have no more bearing on gun rights than a guy who drinks and drives and kills someone should affect my right to own a car.

Stupid people doing stupid things is not a reason to punish everyone.
 
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#11
#11
This case should have no more bearing on gun rights than a guy who drinks and drives and kills someone should affect my right to own a car.

Stupid people doing stupid things is not a reason to punish everyone.

unfortunately that rule of thumb is rarely applied when gun rights are concerned
 
#14
#14
About as clear as the question.

Opponent or proponent of what?

I will recall it for you: "I am a supporter of some gun laws and an opponent of 'Stand Your Ground' laws,"...

I wasn't sure if this statement was a typo or if you had those actual views.

I support SYG laws, FWIW.
 
#16
#16
Do the actions of George Zimmerman threaten 2nd Amendment rights of others?

NO!

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#17
#17
I will recall it for you: "I am a supporter of some gun laws and an opponent of 'Stand Your Ground' laws,"...

I wasn't sure if this statement was a typo or if you had those actual views.

I support SYG laws, FWIW.

Not a typo. I feel that a certain amount of gun control is necessary, and i'm not fond SYG laws. I just don't think this is a good test case to judge the merits of the Fla law. I would rather see the debate take place around a situation in which the law actually applies.
 
#18
#18
Not a typo. I feel that a certain amount of gun control is necessary, and i'm not fond SYG laws. I just don't think this is a good test case to judge the merits of the Fla law. I would rather see the debate take place around a situation in which the law actually applies.

case law is built on bad facts
 
#19
#19
liberals and their ilk threaten the 2nd more than this incident ever could
 
#20
#20
liberals and their ilk threaten the 2nd more than this incident ever could

true, but one of the common refrains is that permitting CC or individual handgun ownership generally will turn the US into the wild west. I'm surprised this case hasn't been used to illustrate that argument... yet.

Then again, if Facebook is any indication, this incident is becoming a race issue rather than a gun rights issue.
 
#21
#21
I don't get the race angle. It was a crime between two minorities from different backgrounds.
 
#22
#22
I don't get the race angle. It was a crime between two minorities from different backgrounds.

that's so turn of the century (twentieth, that is). Jews, the Irish, the polish, and Italians aren't minorities anymore.
 
#23
#23
true, but one of the common refrains is that permitting CC or individual handgun ownership generally will turn the US into the wild west. I'm surprised this case hasn't been used to illustrate that argument... yet.

Actually even among the "liberals" the gun argument has become a bit of a pariah. Gun ownership is up, permit carry is up and legal issues like Castle Doctrine have spread amongst the states. At the federal level we've had SCOTUS issue the Heller and McDonald decisions. For the most part Democrats are keeping quiet because it's in their best interest to do so for the most part.

I've got little good to say about how Zimmerman handled himself as a gun owner in this thread's cited case. Having said that it's what it is...one case. I think it unlikely and wholly unnecessary to start scrutinizing, much less taking apart, the current legislation based on extreme outliers like this.
 
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#25
#25
When gun law opponents stay silent in a case like the murder of Trayvon Martin while George Zimmerman wraps himself in the 2nd Amendment protections and "Stand Your Ground" laws, does this not do a disservice to the cause they support?

I must disclose that I am a supporter of some gun laws and an opponent of "Stand Your Ground" laws, but in this particular case, I don't see how either apply. This is a case about murder, but that won't stop agenda-based groups from trying to make it a case about gun control.

Laughable post as this is an NRA- sponsored measure. It feeds the fantasy many have of going after the "criminal" and getting away with it.

It is not really gun control, anyway. It's more about the "life is a movie" mentality the gun nuts have.
 

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