Faith and the Criminal Justice System, When does it become criminal?

#1
OrangeEmpire

OrangeEmpire

The White Debonair
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#1
Prayer, death, and crime

He told jurors he couldn't seek medical treatment for his 11-year-old daughter Madeline — who suffered from undiagnosed diabetes — without disobeying God.

"I can't do that because Biblically, I cannot find that is the way people are healed," Neumann said.
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Hmmm.....I am torn on this but I think he is most certainly guilty of neglect of a dependent resulting in death of the dependent and should be punished appropriately. However, he is charged differently, with homicide, but I cannot tell what kind of homicide he is charged with. If it is reckless or negligent homicide, he may be in some trouble with the jury, as I think, based on the facts disclosed in the article, all the elements for this crime are met.

Considering his wife/girl's mother was charged with reckless homicide and convicted by a jury, I suspect he is facing the identical charge, reckless homicide. Preliminarily, the facts disclosed in the article satisfy the elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt, and it is probable the jury will reach the same conclusion. If I were on the jury, based on the facts in the article, I would most likely cast a vote of guilty, but admit this is a tough case.

Thoughts?
 
#2
#2
To let a girl die that can't eat, stand up or talk is criminal, regardless of any religious beliefs. I think those at the prayer vigil should be charged as accessories.
 
#3
#3
His charge as a parent is to take care of his child. His religious beliefs are his alone.

If he refuses medical treatment for himself, more power to him. To impose those beliefs on his child in a way that results in harm to her is a violation.

I don't know what the appropriate charge is but his religious beliefs are no excuse to withhold care from his child.
 
#4
#4
I have heard of these types of cases for years now. You always hear about them when they happen. But the follow up by the media is lacking, to the point that you never are made aware of the end result. Such as Plea bargains or sentencing. Which maybe telling in this case.
 
#5
#5
OrangeEmpire said:
Prayer, death, and crime



Hmmm.....I am torn on this but I think he is most certainly guilty of neglect of a dependent resulting in death of the dependent and should be punished appropriately. However, he is charged differently, with homicide, but I cannot tell what kind of homicide he is charged with. If it is reckless or negligent homicide, he may be in some trouble with the jury, as I think, based on the facts disclosed in the article, all the elements for this crime are met.

Considering his wife/girl's mother was charged with reckless homicide and convicted by a jury, I suspect he is facing the identical charge, reckless homicide. Preliminarily, the facts disclosed in the article satisfy the elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt, and it is probable the jury will reach the same conclusion. If I were on the jury, based on the facts in the article, I would most likely cast a vote of guilty, but admit this is a tough case.

Thoughts?
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What is there to be torn about? I don't think it is a tough case at all. At a minimum, he should be found guilty of reckless homicide.
 
#6
#6
If he was charged with anything less than the equivalent under Tennessee law of second degree murder, it's a disgrace. He acted knowingly and intentionally. Any prosecutor who charged a lesser offense under these facts is a pandering coward.
 
#7
#7
hatvol96 said:
If he was charged with anything less than the equivalent under Tennessee law of second degree murder, it's a disgrace. He acted knowingly and intentionally. Any prosecutor who charged a lesser offense under these facts is a pandering coward.
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+1
 
#8
#8
rjd970 said:
What is there to be torn about? I don't think it is a tough case at all. At a minimum, he should be found guilty of reckless homicide.
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One could easily take say that children aren't required to be immunized (even though our best medical science says it makes sense to) if there is a contradiction of faith. Had the details of this case been different and the parent not taken the child to a doctor based on finances, one can guarantee they would not cast a vote of guilt, as that is what a for-profit medical system produces. Since finances do not seem to be the determining factor, but faith instead, one would be still inclined to not call this criminal behavior, particularly if the parent was doing the best he could for the child (within the means of his faith).

Thoughts?
 
#9
#9
OrangeEmpire said:
One could easily take say that children aren't required to be immunized (even though our best medical science says it makes sense to) if there is a contradiction of faith. Had the details of this case been different and the parent not taken the child to a doctor based on finances, one can guarantee they would not cast a vote of guilt, as that is what a for-profit medical system produces. Since finances do not seem to be the determining factor, but faith instead, one would be still inclined to not call this criminal behavior, particularly if the parent was doing the best he could for the child (within the means of his faith).

Thoughts?
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don't think I've ever heard of a case where a child was knowingly allowed to die by Dr's because of money issues.
 
#11
#11
rjd970 said:
What is there to be torn about? I don't think it is a tough case at all. At a minimum, he should be found guilty of reckless homicide.
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First off, I would have tried to get proper medical attention for my child. That's what doctors are for and they gotta make a living.

But this discussion brings this thought to my mind. It seems that a lot of people are big on seperation of church and state. I hear a lot about no prayer in schools, no govt money spent on Christmas decorations, etc. And I know this is the law of the land.

However, it seems that many people take up this cause when they think the church infringing on the state.

Now in this case mentioned in this thread, it could be argued that this was a matter of faith, a church matter if you will. And thus, some are wanting the state to interfer in a church matter. And it is likely that many of them are the same ones who get all out of sorts when anyone mentions the church getting involved in state matters.

It is possible that this may be more than just a matter of church and state. It may be a matter of some just having a deep hatred for the church and finding a way to express it.

Just an opinion.
 
#12
#12
MWR said:
First off, I would have tried to get proper medical attention for my child. That's what doctors are for and they gotta make a living.

But this discussion brings this thought to my mind. It seems that a lot of people are big on seperation of church and state. I hear a lot about no prayer in schools, no govt money spent on Christmas decorations, etc. And I know this is the law of the land.

However, it seems that many people take up this cause when they think the church infringing on the state.

Now in this case mentioned in this thread, it could be argued that this was a matter of faith, a church matter if you will. And thus, some are wanting the state to interfer in a church matter. And it is likely that many of them are the same ones who get all out of sorts when anyone mentions the church getting involved in state matters.

It is possible that this may be more than just a matter of church and state. It may be a matter of some just having a deep hatred for the church and finding a way to express it.

Just an opinion.
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:hi:
 
#13
#13
OrangeEmpire said:
You don't watch the X-files or frequent court all to often.

:hi:
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really? Besides the X-file, children are actually getting denied care because of money? Didn't realize that was legal

MWR said:
It is possible that this may be more than just a matter of church and state. It may be a matter of some just having a deep hatred for the church and finding a way to express it.
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or it could be that people hate when children die needlessly because of the influence of their nutjob parent. I don't care if it's religion, new-age healing or voodoo but it was preventable. He can hide behind the bible all he wants but it won't save him now
 
#14
#14
utvolpj said:
really? Besides the X-file, children are actually getting denied care because of money? Didn't realize that was legal



or it could be that people hate when children die needlessly because of the influence of their nutjob parent. I don't care if it's religion, new-age healing or voodoo but it was preventable. He can hide behind the bible all he wants but it won't save him now
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Just saying people believe a lot of strange things.
 
#16
#16
volinbham said:
His charge as a parent is to take care of his child. His religious beliefs are his alone.

If he refuses medical treatment for himself, more power to him. To impose those beliefs on his child in a way that results in harm to her is a violation.

I don't know what the appropriate charge is but his religious beliefs are no excuse to withhold care from his child.
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Exactly ... :thumbsup:
 
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