Far Right and Far left is truly a poor method of defining politics

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volbound1700

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#1
I started personally writing an article about it but the media and world at large really messes up political ideologies. You really can't just have a left and right.

A great example is Germany.

So Naziism is considered far right... alright...

Well, on that definition, where would a German who supports the return of the Kaiser and is a Monarchist fall? They are definitely ultra-conservative but their belief system is not that of Nazism. In fact, they maybe pro-Jewish and multi-national. What if they wanted a return to the Holy Roman Empire that included other nationalities like Italians and Czechs?

Also, far left usually indicates anarchy or no government control but Communist regimes, notably USSR and PRC, have heavy government control. Is Communism really far left because it has traits that indicate far right?

The system is broken. In fact, Fascism has more in common with Communism than any other system (which is ironically as they were bitter enemies). Both believe in strong government control (even control over the corporations/economies), both have cults of leadership, both favor militarism, both advocate world domination. The only real difference is that Communism is Globalistic in views and not based on Nationalism (focus on race) while Fascism advocates Nationalism (race). In most other aspects, the two ideologies are similar.

In theory, both the Democrats and Republicans are left-wing parties in history as neither, truly, supports a dedicated strong government and the Democrats/far left, would actually be further right than Republicans as they are advocating more government control (Socialism). Far Right would be Communism and Fascism while Far Left would be Anarchists. Center right would be Kings/Queens as Monarchies did not have the level of government control that you saw in Fascism. (Basically most of Europe in the 1600 and 1700s would be center-right)
 
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#3
#3
the political compass does a better job by having 2 dimensions rather than just 1

to your point - I see the new guy in Argentina referred to as far right when he is the opposite of fascist
 
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#4
#4
volinbham said:
the political compass does a better job by having 2 dimensions rather than just 1

to your point - I see the new guy in Argentina referred to as far right when he is the opposite of fascist
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My thought is the best way to view it is how they did in the Age of Enlightenment.

Right = more government
Left = less government

I had the idea of a t-chart to help explain the thoughts today. Right, today, tends to be focused, also, on "Nationalism" but it doesn't fit well in the right-left analysis. So perhaps have a Nationalists/Global on the north-south chart. USSR and Nazi Germany would be the two extremes on that chart and Republicans would be more Nationalists than Democrats (although I don't think they should be close to Nazi Germany).

Under the media's current definition, a pro-Kaiser sympathizer in 1939 Germany would be on the same wavelength as a Nazi supporter even though they are very different in philosophy and ideas. In fact, the pro-Kaiser supports were persecuted by Nazis.
 
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volinbham said:
View attachment 624722
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This looks more accurate although the north-south, IMO, should be right-left going off original definitions from Enlightenment era. Back in the day, right was associated with the Kings and left to Democracies and Republics. The definitions only changed with the rise of Communism and Fascism.

I would argue Libertarian wouldn't be 100% far left, though, and the extreme should be Anarchists. Libertarianism has some government.
 
#10
#10
volbound1700 said:
Where would Anarchy fall?
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far corner of right and libertarian would be my guess.

Here's the definitions of the dimensions

The economic (left–right) axis measures one's opinion of how the economy should be run.[1] In economic terms, the political left is defined as the desire for the economy to be run by a cooperative collective agency, which can mean a sovereign state but also a network of communes, while the political right is defined as the desire for the economy to be left to the devices of competing individuals and organizations.[10]

The other axis (authoritarian–libertarian) measures one's political opinions in a social sense, regarding the amount of personal freedom that one would allow. Libertarianism is defined as the belief that personal freedom should be maximised, while authoritarianism is defined as the belief that authority should be obeyed.
 
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#11
#11
just for shizz and giggs I retook the PC. i've moved down further in the libertarian dimension over the years - now at 1/2 way down on that side (5 units). my economic view has remained stable at about 3 units right.
 
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#12
#12
volinbham said:
just for shizz and giggs I retook the PC. i've moved down further in the libertarian dimension over the years - now at 1/2 way down on that side (5 units). my economic view has remained stable at about 3 units right.
Click to expand...

The PC definitely makes sense but I think right/left should be more the Authoritarianism vs. Libertarianism debate while the north-side should be Nationalism vs. Globalism. The right/left definition of the past fit the north-south chart. It was only after WW2 that right/left took on the Nationalism slant.
 
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#13
volinbham, to address your post on the thread that just got deleted. There are two key differences between the attack on Anwar al-Awlaki and the Jan 6 incident.

1. Congress passed an act that supports the use of Force by the Executive Branch/Military to defend our nation based on war and terror. I think the act is too broad personally but that is grounds

2. Jan 6 situation does not present a current, active threat to overthrow the government. You can argue that maybe on the day of (that is a stretch as well) it was a threat but it has since ceased after Jan 6

The Federal Government's argument on the drone attack is in the Wikipedia Article that was posted in the thread. So an argument was made by the US Government for the killing.

U.S. government officials argued that Awlaki was a key organizer for the Islamist terrorist group al-Qaeda, and in June 2014, a previously classified memorandum issued by the U.S. Department of Justice was released, justifying al-Awlaki's death as a lawful act of war

To be fair, I agreed with the Mods decision to delete that thread but I wanted to get back to you in our discussion.
 
#14
#14
Well, maybe we're not here but sometimes it feels like this is where we are headed

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#16
#16
volbound1700 said:
The PC definitely makes sense but I think right/left should be more the Authoritarianism vs. Libertarianism debate while the north-side should be Nationalism vs. Globalism. The right/left definition of the past fit the north-south chart. It was only after WW2 that right/left took on the Nationalism slant.
Click to expand...
I think the current definition/practice of nationalism has largely left behind the older context.

previously nationalism was more focused on ethnic groups than a arbitrary borders it is now defined by. Going back to the 1930s/40s Germans, nationalism was Germany for Germans (only), and all Germans being part of Germany. Current day nationalism wouldn't have the same Anschluss, Final Solution push, at least as a key driver, there will always be elements at the extremes. But current nationalism is more about the country itself, and not being hyper focused on the ethnicities involved, and has taken on more of an economic focus rather than a political/government focus.

Globalism has similarly shifted from its 1940s definitions, where its now more of an economic standpoint rather than a anti-colonialism/independence movement.
 
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