Flip Flops - depends on your background

[TennNC]

Richard Cohen says McCain's are okay b/c he's a POW.

TPM Election Central | Talking Points Memo | WaPo's Richard Cohen: McCain's Flip-Flops Matter Less Than Obama's Because McCain Was POW

Thoughts?
(OE - send me the bill for copying your trademark)

 

[volinbham]

POW status should not be a shield.

I would look at flip-flops individually, by topic.

McCain changing his mind on off-shore drilling is perfectly legit since his original view was in a very different context (gas prices/oil supply) AND he's openly acknowledged that change is why he's changed his view.

McCain's change on social issues is pandering pure and simple.

Obama's flip on public financing is pure self interest AND the reason he's given is bogus.


So, some are legit some are not. I'd like to see someone who is willing to change strategic decisions as conditions change. I'm not impressed when someone changes "values" for political expediency.

 

[KB5252]

POW status should not be a shield.

I would look at flip-flops individually, by topic.

McCain changing his mind on off-shore drilling is perfectly legit since his original view was in a very different context (gas prices/oil supply) AND he's openly acknowledged that change is why he's changed his view.

McCain's change on social issues is pandering pure and simple.

Obama's flip on public financing is pure self interest AND the reason he's given is bogus.


So, some are legit some are not. I'd like to see someone who is willing to change strategic decisions as conditions change. I'm not impressed when someone changes "values" for political expediency.

well said!

 

[TennNC]

POW status should not be a shield.

I would look at flip-flops individually, by topic.

McCain changing his mind on off-shore drilling is perfectly legit since his original view was in a very different context (gas prices/oil supply) AND he's openly acknowledged that change is why he's changed his view.

McCain's change on social issues is pandering pure and simple.

Obama's flip on public financing is pure self interest AND the reason he's given is bogus.


So, some are legit some are not. I'd like to see someone who is willing to change strategic decisions as conditions change. I'm not impressed when someone changes "values" for political expediency.

this sounds right to me. to make sure - you're criticizing them equally?

 

[volinbham]

this sounds right to me. to make sure - you're criticizing them equally?

Yes. McCain's move to the right on what I would consider values questions is troublesome but necessary for election. Likewise are Obama' similar flips.

McCain's change of off-shore drilling makes me a stronger supporter of his since it is a reasoned move given changing conditions.

 

[TennNC]

Yes. McCain's move to the right on what I would consider values questions is troublesome but necessary for election. Likewise are Obama' similar flips.

McCain's change of off-shore drilling makes me a stronger supporter of his since it is a reasoned move given changing conditions.

I appreciate your objectivity.

However, do you think McCain calculated other possible reasons for changing his stance on off-shore drilling than just the increased price of oil? The reason I wonder this is b/c I've seen analyses that allowing more offshore drilling would actually have little impact on prices, and even that wouldn't occur until 10 more years or so. So I'm thinking, the short-term benefit could be increased fundraising from oil companies. Just a thought.

Also, I'd like to know what you think his reasoning is for wanting to suspend the federal gas tax?

 

[KB5252]

I appreciate your objectivity.

However, do you think McCain calculated other possible reasons for changing his stance on off-shore drilling than just the increased price of oil? The reason I wonder this is b/c I've seen analyses that allowing more offshore drilling would actually have little impact on prices, and even that wouldn't occur until 10 more years or so. So I'm thinking, the short-term benefit could be increased fundraising from oil companies. Just a thought.

Also, I'd like to know what you think his reasoning is for wanting to suspend the federal gas tax?

I have heard some oil people claim the oil could be on the market in a little over three years. Even a little extra on the market would make speculators back off a bit. I've heard some estimates of the speculators impact at 40 to 60% of the current price. Even if it only drove prices down 15% it would still help me out at the pump.

 

[droski]

I appreciate your objectivity.

However, do you think McCain calculated other possible reasons for changing his stance on off-shore drilling than just the increased price of oil? The reason I wonder this is b/c I've seen analyses that allowing more offshore drilling would actually have little impact on prices, and even that wouldn't occur until 10 more years or so. So I'm thinking, the short-term benefit could be increased fundraising from oil companies. Just a thought.

Also, I'd like to know what you think his reasoning is for wanting to suspend the federal gas tax?

i don't get these arguments. how someone could make the argument that the posibility of a massive amount of domestically drilled oil (yes it would take 5-10 years to get it) wouldn't negatively affect the oil price is beyond me. and even if it doesn't affect the price today (which if find extremely unlikely) SURELY it will affect the price 5 years from now (which ain't that far off). edit: think about it logically. if you are an oil producer and you know that 5 years from now a huge supply of oil is coming on wouldn't you sell as much oil as possible today at the higher price?

 

[droski]

I have heard some oil people claim the oil could be on the market in a little over three years. Even a little extra on the market would make speculators back off a bit. I've heard some estimates of the speculators impact at 40 to 60% of the current price. Even if it only drove prices down 15% it would still help me out at the pump.

i have no doubt that the oil price would immediately drop $20 a barrell at least. and considering the amont of people long oil who would now be losing money i could easily see it drop twice that.

 

[volinbham]

I appreciate your objectivity.

However, do you think McCain calculated other possible reasons for changing his stance on off-shore drilling than just the increased price of oil? The reason I wonder this is b/c I've seen analyses that allowing more offshore drilling would actually have little impact on prices, and even that wouldn't occur until 10 more years or so. So I'm thinking, the short-term benefit could be increased fundraising from oil companies. Just a thought.

Also, I'd like to know what you think his reasoning is for wanting to suspend the federal gas tax?

The long-term effect is a non-issue. I don't understand the argument used by Obama and the Dems. How can they argue for windpower (long-term) but argue against more oil (long-term). ALL energy solutions will take time - why take one off the table using that argument. That seems like pandering to environmentalists and trying to stir up anti-Big Oil sentiment.

Gas-tax suspension is a dumb idea. Probably a half and halfer - half to provide some quick relief and half to pander.

 

[droski]

The long-term effect is a non-issue. I don't understand the argument used by Obama and the Dems. How can they argue for windpower (long-term) but argue against more oil (long-term). ALL energy solutions will take time - why take one off the table using that argument. That seems like pandering to environmentalists and trying to stir up anti-Big Oil sentiment.

Gas-tax suspension is a dumb idea. Probably a half and halfer - half to provide some quick relief and half to pander.

agreed the gas tax suspension is real stupid. we should be trying to encourage people to decrease their usage, not increase.

 

[KB5252]

agreed the gas tax suspension is real stupid. we should be trying to encourage people to decrease their usage, not increase.

The best way to do that is to make any alternatives cheaper. Something that is not a possibility right now. I don't know of any other way to encourage people to use less gas than to simply make it a burden to them at the pump.

 

[TennNC]

i don't get these arguments. how someone could make the argument that the posibility of a massive amount of domestically drilled oil (yes it would take 5-10 years to get it) wouldn't negatively affect the oil price is beyond me. and even if it doesn't affect the price today (which if find extremely unlikely) SURELY it will affect the price 5 years from now (which ain't that far off). edit: think about it logically. if you are an oil producer and you know that 5 years from now a huge supply of oil is coming on wouldn't you sell as much oil as possible today at the higher price?

I think the point is that the additional oil that would come from this additional drilling wouldn't impact the price beyond what it's likely to be at that point anyway -- it's a combo of time taken to get the supply in market and the size of the supply itself. This is what the federal Energy Information Administration's top guy says:

More Offshore Drilling Does Little at Pump: EIA - Oil and Gas * Energy * News * Story - MSNBC.com

 

[MG1968]

I think the point is that the additional oil that would come from this additional drilling wouldn't impact the price beyond what it's likely to be at that point anyway -- it's a combo of time taken to get the supply in market and the size of the supply itself. This is what the federal Energy Information Administration's top guy says:

More Offshore Drilling Does Little at Pump: EIA - Oil and Gas * Energy * News * Story - MSNBC.com

so how does the Obamassiah plan to reduce the price at the pump? he's all talk now, but if and when he takes the Oath of Office next January, he's going to have to actually put his money where his mouth is.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Hello........ $5 a gallon!

For the collective good of course.

Eighty Eight cents will be deposited into the entitlement program of your choice!

 

[TennNC]

so how does the Obamassiah plan to reduce the price at the pump? he's all talk now, but if and when he takes the Oath of Office next January, he's going to have to actually put his money where his mouth is.

I don't know what Sen. Obama plans to do to reduce the price. Perhaps he thinks there's another solution, such as reducing the amount of gas we need to operate -- through more efficient cars, e.g. You can find out what he thinks if you really want to know.

What do you think of offshore drilling? Do you think it's the solution? Do you think we'll see the price go down? By how much? And when? And will drilling offshore have any negative effects?

 

[volsforever27]

I don't know what Sen. Obama plans to do to reduce the price. Perhaps he thinks there's another solution, such as reducing the amount of gas we need to operate -- through more efficient cars, e.g. You can find out what he thinks if you really want to know.

What do you think of offshore drilling? Do you think it's the solution? Do you think we'll see the price go down? By how much? And when? And will drilling offshore have any negative effects?

What do you mean by negative? Enviromental?

 

[TennNC]

What do you mean by negative? Enviromental?

Whatever you think it might mean. If there are effects to the environment that might be harmful. Or if there are effects to the local economy (from tourism, fishing, etc.) that could be harmful.

 

[KB5252]

Whatever you think it might mean. If there are effects to the environment that might be harmful. Or if there are effects to the local economy (from tourism, fishing, etc.) that could be harmful.

It won't effect tourism that much. If people don't go to resort town A then they will go to resort town B that is close. Oil rigs dont hurt fishing, in fact it draws fish in because of the drilling platform.

 

[Vol Mania 21]

bam, balla. look the earth will end when God decides for it to end, i'm not all about trashing the earth, but i don't think drilling would hurt

 

[TennNC]

It won't effect tourism that much. If people don't go to resort town A then they will go to resort town B that is close. Oil rigs dont hurt fishing, in fact it draws fish in because of the drilling platform.

Texas is all for drilling off coast of Florida - St. Petersburg Times

I don't have any stats on its impact on tourism, but I can tell you from visiting: if you swim in the beaches in Texas (particularly near Galveston and Corpus), you need to apply a product called "Tar Off" to remove little bits of oil residue from your body. To editorialize, it sucks.

 

[TennNC]

bam, balla. look the earth will end when God decides for it to end, i'm not all about trashing the earth, but i don't think drilling would hurt

I'm not worried about the earth - it's way more powerful than we are. I am concerned with humans' ability to live well while on it, though.

 

[volinbham]

What do you think of offshore drilling? Do you think it's the solution? Do you think we'll see the price go down? By how much? And when? And will drilling offshore have any negative effects?

Why support a Federal ban? Why can't a state decide if the risk/reward scenario is appropriate?

No one believes that offshore drilling (or shale development) are complete solutions but refusing to even consider them as part of the solution makes little sense.

 

[volsforever27]

If China, Cuba etc are already doing it, then there is no harm for us to. It makes no sense that they are drilling right off our coast while we sit on our hands.

 

[TennNC]

Why support a Federal ban? Why can't a state decide if the risk/reward scenario is appropriate?

No one believes that offshore drilling (or shale development) are complete solutions but refusing to even consider them as part of the solution makes little sense.

Unless you feel you've already considered them.

That said, I hear what you're saying. So what happens if Virginia starts drilling and it affects NC waters, e.g. Who's responsible then?