Florida's govenror turns down 2.5 billion for high speed rail

#1
lawgator1

lawgator1

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#1
Feds set Feb. 25 deadline for rail deal - OrlandoSentinel.com


This would run from Orlando to Tampa, link up with attractions, airports, and another rail system heading to the east. Governor says he's worried that the state will have to pay for cost overruns, but that is apparently incorrect.

He went on Fox News to talk about turning the federal money down as rebuke of Obama spending. But, a number of prominent Florida Republicans are asking him to reconsider.

The economy is hurting here like elsewhere, state and local budgets are a mess because of dwindling property taxes and high unemployment. I for one am skeptical that high speed rail would be all that effective, but ridership is projected at over 3 million people a year. And the money would be a heckuva boost to the local economy, obviously.

I don't know. I can see both sides of this argument, though.
 
#2
#2
even with a projected ridership of 3 million, each one of those tickets is going to be subsidized by tax dollars. Infrastructure improvements shouldn't be merely works projects.
 
#3
#3
wish we had done this with the idiotic san fran to LA rail. you have to subsidize it for eternity remember. $2.5 bil sounds nice, but it comes with a huge long term price tag.
 
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MG1968 said:
even with a projected ridership of 3 million, each one of those tickets is going to be subsidized by tax dollars. Infrastructure improvements shouldn't be merely works projects.
Click to expand...

Bet your grandfather didn't say that during the Great Depression.
 
#7
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MG1968 said:
even with a projected ridership of 3 million, each one of those tickets is going to be subsidized by tax dollars. Infrastructure improvements shouldn't be merely works projects.
Click to expand...


To be fair, they've been talking about doing this since the 1980's. Sure, the economic shot in the arm aspect of it is meaningful right now, but its not like they just dreamed this up.



droski said:
wish we had done this with the idiotic san fran to LA rail. you have to subsidize it for eternity remember. $2.5 bil sounds nice, but it comes with a huge long term price tag.
Click to expand...


I do not disagree. The one thing it would really have going for it, though, is that it would give people another way to travel here for theme parks and conventions. Ours is second in size, I believe, only to Vegas' convention center. Or we have the second highest numbers. Something like that.
 
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lawgator1 said:
I do not disagree. The one thing it would really have going for it, though, is that it would give people another way to travel here for theme parks and conventions. Ours is second in size, I believe, only to Vegas' convention center. Or we have the second highest numbers. Something like that.
Click to expand...

is the route traffic plagued anyway? this is what i don't get about the california one. 80% of it is open highway and plane tickets are already dirt cheap. if they built one from LA to vegas (which is a major truck route and horrible traffic) i'd be ok with it.
 
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also, they can "project" ridership all they want, what they can't do is prove ridership until it's actually in operation.

Charlotte, NC's light-rail system (not high speed, I know) was given all manner of rosy predictions based on ridership and economic improvement along the rail line. Meanwhile, the project encountered massive cost overruns, several delays and has yet to meet the "projected" ridership. It's going to be decades, if ever, before Charlotte taxpayers see a return on that investment.
 
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MG1968 said:
I guess if you knew dick about my grandfather, you'd leave family out of it.
Click to expand...

Eeeasy big fellow. I should have said people of his generation. I know those civil projects kept food on alot of tables in the south during the 1930's. If you knew dick about me you wouldn't have assumed I was insulting family.
 
#12
#12
I think it would have been a good thing for the Tampa/St Pete/Clearwater vicinity in particular. It would have connected the Disney/Universal/Sea World visitors to the beaches, Ybor City and cruise/tourism industry here.

Not to mention the immediate impact on the unemployed. Particularly ironic considering the running slogan of, "Let's get to work".
 
#13
#13
Grandpa 1 was a Cleveland police officer, grandpa 2 was a self-sufficient farmer in rural Michigan.
 
#14
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MG1968 said:
Grandpa 1 was a Cleveland police officer, grandpa 2 was a self-sufficient farmer in rural Michigan.
Click to expand...

Glad to hear it. Both my Grandaddies came out relatively unscathed but I've heard many stories form both about people they knew personally that lost everything down to their milk cows. Until she died last year, I don't think my father' mothers ever threw anything away based on her experiences.
 
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now that we've got that out of the way...

Florida is not going through the Great Depression and if there is no need to build a HS rail line, they shouldn't be forced by the Federal government to build one just for the sake of providing jobs. Jobs which are, by nature, temporary. Cost overruns are inevitable and operating costs will always far exceed actual revenues.

The long term economic consequences should far outweigh the short-term, feel-good aspect of a politician gladhanding constituents and exhorting them about the wonderful new train he brought to the area.

If there was a market for HS rail in Florida, the private sector would have jumped all over it.
 
#16
#16
I COMPLETELY agree. What bothers me, if memory serves, is BO gave the impression that part of the stimulus would go towards improving our infrastructure, bridges and whatnot, thereby creating jobs. Not only has that seemingly failed to happen, I don't see how anyone could count this project as existing work that needs improvement, thereby receiving FED $.
 
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droski said:
is the route traffic plagued anyway? this is what i don't get about the california one. 80% of it is open highway and plane tickets are already dirt cheap. if they built one from LA to vegas (which is a major truck route and horrible traffic) i'd be ok with it.
Click to expand...


Yes, the I-4 corridor from Orlando to Tampa is daily an absolute nightmare in both directions.


MG1968 said:
also, they can "project" ridership all they want, what they can't do is prove ridership until it's actually in operation.

Charlotte, NC's light-rail system (not high speed, I know) was given all manner of rosy predictions based on ridership and economic improvement along the rail line. Meanwhile, the project encountered massive cost overruns, several delays and has yet to meet the "projected" ridership. It's going to be decades, if ever, before Charlotte taxpayers see a return on that investment.
Click to expand...


I agree with you. Valid point. Another factor is that this will take a long time to build and so the assumptions the projections are based upon could be high, or low. Haven't seen any projections but it has to be a ten year-plus project.

Which also leads me to say ....


MG1968 said:
now that we've got that out of the way...

Florida is not going through the Great Depression and if there is no need to build a HS rail line, they shouldn't be forced by the Federal government to build one just for the sake of providing jobs. Jobs which are, by nature, temporary. Cost overruns are inevitable and operating costs will always far exceed actual revenues.

The long term economic consequences should far outweigh the short-term, feel-good aspect of a politician gladhanding constituents and exhorting them about the wonderful new train he brought to the area.

If there was a market for HS rail in Florida, the private sector would have jumped all over it.
Click to expand...


I do not agree with this because the jobs aren't going to be temporary. It would provide employment to hundreds if not thousands of people over a pretty long period of time.

I also don't agree tha just because the private sector hasn't done it means its a bad idea. For one thing, the private sector can't engage in the process of eminent domain. For another, getting together $2.7 billion for a payoff decades away is not something the private sector is going to be fond of. And last, there are some benefits to this that will not just be financial to the owner/operator-- its not designed to make money in simple ridership, it increases commerce between two significant markets where, right now, everyone complains mightily about the possiblity of a one hour drive turning into a four hour one.
 
#18
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CSVol said:
I COMPLETELY agree. What bothers me, if memory serves, is BO gave the impression that part of the stimulus would go towards improving our infrastructure, bridges and whatnot, thereby creating jobs. Not only has that seemingly failed to happen, I don't see how anyone could count this project as existing work that needs improvement, thereby receiving FED $.
Click to expand...

Yup. Improving infrastructure wouldn't really "create jobs" in a sustainable way, anyway, so I never saw the point or understood the argument that FDR's public works ended the Great Depression. It just doesn't wash.
 
#19
#19
IPorange said:
Yup. Improving infrastructure wouldn't really "create jobs" in a sustainable way, anyway, so I never saw the point or understood the argument that FDR's public works ended the Great Depression. It just doesn't wash.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't argue the public works ended the depression but it seems to have been an effective stopgap in retrospect.
 
#20
#20
lawgator1 said:
Feds set Feb. 25 deadline for rail deal - OrlandoSentinel.com


This would run from Orlando to Tampa, link up with attractions, airports, and another rail system heading to the east. Governor says he's worried that the state will have to pay for cost overruns, but that is apparently incorrect.

He went on Fox News to talk about turning the federal money down as rebuke of Obama spending. But, a number of prominent Florida Republicans are asking him to reconsider.

The economy is hurting here like elsewhere, state and local budgets are a mess because of dwindling property taxes and high unemployment. I for one am skeptical that high speed rail would be all that effective, but ridership is projected at over 3 million people a year. And the money would be a heckuva boost to the local economy, obviously.

I don't know. I can see both sides of this argument, though.
Click to expand...

Pretty stupid, IMO. The money has been approved and will be spent on HSR somewhere, he may as well have taken and used it.
 
#21
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CSVol said:
Eeeasy big fellow. I should have said people of his generation. I know those civil projects kept food on alot of tables in the south during the 1930's. If you knew dick about me you wouldn't have assumed I was insulting family.
Click to expand...

I've actually never met dick. I heard he was a pretty good gumshoe though and banged Madonna. But then again, who hasn't?
 
#24
#24
Actually, Dick was Dad's fav. pres. He was a neo-con before there was such a thing. Anytime any Arab/Isreali nonsense comes on the news he shouts "turn 'em all into glass" at the tv.
 
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