Grades and Grading

[AshG]

There have been a few discussions lately about grades and grading, but they have been more political and less functional. I'd enjoy the opportunity for a functional discussion here.

If you're going to participate, all I ask is that you don't be a jerk or make this into some dogmatic hill to die on. And try not to be negative; I'm legitimately worried about a few of you.

For a history of grading in the US, this is a short read with links to deeper dives.

Currently, most elementary and secondary grading systems in the US appear as some variation of a leptokurtic distribution with a negative skew:

A: 94%-100% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Highest merit)
B: 85%-93% accuracy on assignments and assessments (With merit)
C: 76%-84% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Average/Mean achievement)
D: 69%-75% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Poor/below mean achievement)
F: 0%-68% accuracy on assignments and assessments (No achievement of merit)

A grade in the C range was designed to be the center of the bell curve, with the most students landing in this category of mastery. A grade of B was considered to show solid and consistent achievement on assignments and a grade of A showing near flawless completion of all assessments and assignments. Grades of D and F were supposed to be warning signs that prompted increased intervention by the teacher.

The biggest problems come from the fact that grades in this manner tend to represent completion, not mastery. For example, my junior year of High School I received a grade of D in first semester honors english while also receiving a 36/36 in Reading Comprehension and a 35/36 in Language Arts on the ACT. My grade in no way reflected my mastery of the skills, just that I thought my homework was a waste of time and the books we were supposed to read were boring. I had As and Bs in all my other classes. But, I digress.

One of the things that I heard frequently as a middle school teacher and now as a parent of school-age children is "I want an A for my child! Why can't my child get straight As! It's the teacher's fault for not teaching well enough!" That's actually not the case at all; again, back to the leptokurtic distribution with negative skew. If the goal is an increase in accuracy on assignments and assessments, then the plot will need to change to reflect that again. It will become even more leptokurtic and skew even further in the negative. As a C will remain the center of the frequency chart, a grading scale that represents higher achievement would need to look like this:

A: 97%-100% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Highest merit)
B: 92%-96% accuracy on assignments and assessments (With merit)
C: 86%-91% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Average/Mean achievement)
D: 79%-85% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Poor/below mean achievement)
F: 0%-78% accuracy on assignments and assessments (No achievement of merit)

While this raises the accuracy on completed assignments and assessments, it does nothing to address the desire for the highest possible grades and starts to appear as if grade inflation is taking place. An A becomes even harder to achieve, while D and F become even easier. Again: this isn't about mastery, but about completion and accuracy. You can't look at either example grading scale and ascertain if your child got a C in maths because they are having trouble with fractions or a D in Language Arts because they have issues with visual processing of language (but would have an A if it were read to them).

So my question to the group here is this: should we be focusing on tightening the current scoring system, or should we examine ways to connect completion/accuracy to mastery and have grades that paint a more full picture of what our children are capable of?

 

[hog88]

Your first grade scale was what I had in school and I think is the best representation of knowing the subject matter AND demonstrating the discipline to get the work done. School is not just about mastering subject matter, it's also about preparing the students for the working world.

When my kids were in school they were on a 10 point grade scale, As were like a participation trophy and everybody got one.

 

[DC_Vol]

Liked just because you reference a leptokurtic distribution.

I was in very few classes where the final grades were normally distributed.

The system rewards handing out good grades. Students like it and teachers can pat themselves on the back.

 

[Rishvol]

It doesn't matter the grading scale when I'm told to not allow a student to drop below a 50 so they can take remediation classes and graduate

 

[Vol423]

There have been a few discussions lately about grades and grading, but they have been more political and less functional. I'd enjoy the opportunity for a functional discussion here.

If you're going to participate, all I ask is that you don't be a jerk or make this into some dogmatic hill to die on. And try not to be negative; I'm legitimately worried about a few of you.

For a history of grading in the US, this is a short read with links to deeper dives.

Currently, most elementary and secondary grading systems in the US appear as some variation of a leptokurtic distribution with a negative skew:

A: 94%-100% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Highest merit)
B: 85%-93% accuracy on assignments and assessments (With merit)
C: 76%-84% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Average/Mean achievement)
D: 69%-75% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Poor/below mean achievement)
F: 0%-68% accuracy on assignments and assessments (No achievement of merit)

A grade in the C range was designed to be the center of the bell curve, with the most students landing in this category of mastery. A grade of B was considered to show solid and consistent achievement on assignments and a grade of A showing near flawless completion of all assessments and assignments. Grades of D and F were supposed to be warning signs that prompted increased intervention by the teacher.

The biggest problems come from the fact that grades in this manner tend to represent completion, not mastery. For example, my junior year of High School I received a grade of D in first semester honors english while also receiving a 36/36 in Reading Comprehension and a 35/36 in Language Arts on the ACT. My grade in no way reflected my mastery of the skills, just that I thought my homework was a waste of time and the books we were supposed to read were boring. I had As and Bs in all my other classes. But, I digress.

One of the things that I heard frequently as a middle school teacher and now as a parent of school-age children is "I want an A for my child! Why can't my child get straight As! It's the teacher's fault for not teaching well enough!" That's actually not the case at all; again, back to the leptokurtic distribution with negative skew. If the goal is an increase in accuracy on assignments and assessments, then the plot will need to change to reflect that again. It will become even more leptokurtic and skew even further in the negative. As a C will remain the center of the frequency chart, a grading scale that represents higher achievement would need to look like this:

A: 97%-100% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Highest merit)
B: 92%-96% accuracy on assignments and assessments (With merit)
C: 86%-91% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Average/Mean achievement)
D: 79%-85% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Poor/below mean achievement)
F: 0%-78% accuracy on assignments and assessments (No achievement of merit)

While this raises the accuracy on completed assignments and assessments, it does nothing to address the desire for the highest possible grades and starts to appear as if grade inflation is taking place. An A becomes even harder to achieve, while D and F become even easier. Again: this isn't about mastery, but about completion and accuracy. You can't look at either example grading scale and ascertain if your child got a C in maths because they are having trouble with fractions or a D in Language Arts because they have issues with visual processing of language (but would have an A if it were read to them).

So my question to the group here is this: should we be focusing on tightening the current scoring system, or should we examine ways to connect completion/accuracy to mastery and have grades that paint a more full picture of what our children are capable of?

Ash, my definition of mastery would encompass a combination of both completion and accuracy. My reasoning is simply that you can't reasonably assess accuracy without first completing all assignments and tests. You seem to be driving at a different definition of mastery. I will grant you the fact that it is possible for a student to master a topic without completing all assignments, but the teacher can only accurately assess that mastery by grading completed assignments and exams. Can you explain how you would define mastery?

 

[Vol423]

Your first grade scale was what I had in school and I think is the best representation of knowing the subject matter AND demonstrating the discipline to get the work done. School is not just about mastering subject matter, it's also about preparing the students for the working world.

When my kids were in school they were on a 10 point grade scale, As were like a participation trophy and everybody got one.

I agree with the first grading scale. However, any grading scale only makes sense if teachers are accurately grading the assignments and exams. U.S. students' scores on math and science tests compared to other countries would seem to indicate that is a massive underlying issue. There can be no participation trophies if you want students to actually learn and master topics. The harsher the teacher grades, the better it is. In my opinion, one of the biggest issues in the U.S. educational system (aside from the liberal indoctrination of students) is the fact that the goal seems to be to continuously advance students through the educational machine regardless of whether they learn and master the subject matter or not.

Hog, I responded to your post after reading only your first comment. I hadn't read your "participation trophy" comment before I wrote my response. Obviously, we agree that is a major issue.

 

[Rishvol]

I agree with the first grading scale. However, any grading scale only makes sense if teachers are accurately grading the assignments and exams. U.S. students' scores on math and science tests compared to other countries would seem to indicate that is a massive underlying issue. There can be no participation trophies if you want students to actually learn and master topics. The harsher the teacher grades, the better it is. In my opinion, one of the biggest issues in the U.S. educational system (aside from the liberal indoctrination of students) is the fact that the goal seems to be to continuously advance students through the educational machine regardless of whether they learn and master the subject matter or not.

Hog, I responded to your post after reading only your first comment. I hadn't read your "participation trophy" comment before I wrote my response. Obviously, we agree that is a major issue.

COVID broke the education system with virtual learning. So many students failed at self-disciplined learning that schools had to go in and change grades to allow students to pass. I'm actively told by my administration to not put a grade below 50 so if they fail they can easily get credit recovery. It's a sham and an insult to the students who work their butts off to earn the grades the deserve

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Liked just because you reference a leptokurtic distribution.

I was in very few classes where the final grades were normally distributed.

The system rewards handing out good grades. Students like it and teachers can pat themselves on the back.

I want to see a poll of how many VN'ers know what the hell leptokurtic is.

 

[DuckInAPen]

It's worth emphasizing that the numbers and letters assigned to any grading system are meaningless without consideration 1) of the difficulty of the assignments and assessments and 2) of the composition of the student body (its collective aptitude and diligence). An increased floor for an A does not (in and of itself) indicate an increase of rigor, nor does an A necessarily represent greater achievement than a C when comparing grades across schools (or across tracks within the same school).

Standardized tests such as the ACT and the SAT serve an important equalizing function (despite their flaws and limitations), but it seems that (for now, at least) they've been marginalized.

 

[LouderVol]

I would think if you are wanting a system of grading that encompasses both completion (important), as well as mastery (important), you need some combined grading system. Or you just break the overall grade down.

Something like the number is completion but the letter is mastery. So you could get some weird splits like a 94 C. Or 78 A.

Or if you break it down maybe each class has five "parts" that get graded separately. One of those is completion, the rest are the constituent parts of the mastery of that particular subject. But that's real tricky because you actively have to track each separately , and you dont cover everything all the time.

Also I think tracking completion separately is a bad idea. Because you would fundamentally have to separate grading the results with the "mastery" and then what are you judging for completion? Just that every question was answered?

You dont get partial credit in the real world, or you dont get to be really good at your job sometime. At least if you want to be considered good.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

Your first grade scale was what I had in school and I think is the best representation of knowing the subject matter AND demonstrating the discipline to get the work done. School is not just about mastering subject matter, it's also about preparing the students for the working world.

When my kids were in school they were on a 10 point grade scale, As were like a participation trophy and everybody got one.

The scale doesn't really matter. I took honors chem at Tennessee. Our grading scale was 50-60 D, 60-70 C, 70-80 B, 80-100 A. In a class of 80 or so there were 2 As.

 

[luthervol]

I think this fits in with the overall discussion.
Class rank coupled with the rigor of the courses taken is an important indicator of a student's success. High schools are also ranked based on overall SAT/ACT scores. A high class rank in a high performing school carries a little more weight than a high rank in a low performing school. I also know that some colleges keep ongoing historical records of how students from specific high schools do. If they have admitted 30 students from XHS over the years and 25 of them dropped out by their junior year, then XHS is downgraded. If they have admitted 30 students from YHS over the years and 25 of them graduated on time and with honors, YHS is upgraded.

The ITBS in elementary and middle schools provided great data, much better than the data provided currently by the state tests.

I would re-institute the ITBS or an equivalent that gives a nationally normed grade level equivalency and prominently post the individual student's most recent scores at the top of each report card. This would show current position, past growth, and provide much needed context to the grades being given.

 

[n_huffhines]

There have been a few discussions lately about grades and grading, but they have been more political and less functional. I'd enjoy the opportunity for a functional discussion here.

If you're going to participate, all I ask is that you don't be a jerk or make this into some dogmatic hill to die on. And try not to be negative; I'm legitimately worried about a few of you.

For a history of grading in the US, this is a short read with links to deeper dives.

Currently, most elementary and secondary grading systems in the US appear as some variation of a leptokurtic distribution with a negative skew:

A: 94%-100% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Highest merit)
B: 85%-93% accuracy on assignments and assessments (With merit)
C: 76%-84% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Average/Mean achievement)
D: 69%-75% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Poor/below mean achievement)
F: 0%-68% accuracy on assignments and assessments (No achievement of merit)

A grade in the C range was designed to be the center of the bell curve, with the most students landing in this category of mastery. A grade of B was considered to show solid and consistent achievement on assignments and a grade of A showing near flawless completion of all assessments and assignments. Grades of D and F were supposed to be warning signs that prompted increased intervention by the teacher.

The biggest problems come from the fact that grades in this manner tend to represent completion, not mastery. For example, my junior year of High School I received a grade of D in first semester honors english while also receiving a 36/36 in Reading Comprehension and a 35/36 in Language Arts on the ACT. My grade in no way reflected my mastery of the skills, just that I thought my homework was a waste of time and the books we were supposed to read were boring. I had As and Bs in all my other classes. But, I digress.

One of the things that I heard frequently as a middle school teacher and now as a parent of school-age children is "I want an A for my child! Why can't my child get straight As! It's the teacher's fault for not teaching well enough!" That's actually not the case at all; again, back to the leptokurtic distribution with negative skew. If the goal is an increase in accuracy on assignments and assessments, then the plot will need to change to reflect that again. It will become even more leptokurtic and skew even further in the negative. As a C will remain the center of the frequency chart, a grading scale that represents higher achievement would need to look like this:

A: 97%-100% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Highest merit)
B: 92%-96% accuracy on assignments and assessments (With merit)
C: 86%-91% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Average/Mean achievement)
D: 79%-85% accuracy on assignments and assessments (Poor/below mean achievement)
F: 0%-78% accuracy on assignments and assessments (No achievement of merit)

While this raises the accuracy on completed assignments and assessments, it does nothing to address the desire for the highest possible grades and starts to appear as if grade inflation is taking place. An A becomes even harder to achieve, while D and F become even easier. Again: this isn't about mastery, but about completion and accuracy. You can't look at either example grading scale and ascertain if your child got a C in maths because they are having trouble with fractions or a D in Language Arts because they have issues with visual processing of language (but would have an A if it were read to them).

So my question to the group here is this: should we be focusing on tightening the current scoring system, or should we examine ways to connect completion/accuracy to mastery and have grades that paint a more full picture of what our children are capable of?

Whatever you do, let's abolish homework in K-12

 

[Jxn Vol]

This seems like a good thread to throw this out.

My kids school has a 93-100 A scale. Another school in town has 90-100. Two students can make the same grade but have different GPAs.

Do colleges take that into consideration in their admission qualifications?

 

[LouderVol]

This seems like a good thread to throw this out.

My kids school has a 93-100 A scale. Another school in town has 90-100. Two students can make the same grade but have different GPAs.

Do colleges take that into consideration in their admission qualifications?

UT adjusted. They had my GPA a lot higher than my high school transcript did. I went from 93 as bottom A to 90 is bottom A at UT.

 

[utvolpj]

This seems like a good thread to throw this out.

My kids school has a 93-100 A scale. Another school in town has 90-100. Two students can make the same grade but have different GPAs.

Do colleges take that into consideration in their admission qualifications?

That was done for Weighted vs unweighted in my school. AP classes had a wider scale but Max gpa was still 4.0.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

Most of the top law schools grade on a system of honors, pass and low pass. No GPA, no class rank.

 

[MurphyVol]

I want to see a poll of how many VN'ers know what the hell leptokurtic is.

It's roughly the current employment rate of the Cuomo brothers

 

[volinbham]

Having done it now for almost 4 decades I can say that grading sucks

 

[Matt2496]

Based on my experience at UT the grade scale depended upon the professor. Most of the time, anything above a 92 was a guaranteed A. One class I had completely did away with pluses and minuses and just set anything above 90 as an A. 80-89 automatically went down to a B and so on.

Now I had a certain professor in the EE department that actually curved the class down so that only one or two people got A’s. You could have a 90 average in the class and still end up with a C. That was fun.

 

[NEO]

This seems like a good thread to throw this out.

My kids school has a 93-100 A scale. Another school in town has 90-100. Two students can make the same grade but have different GPAs.

Do colleges take that into consideration in their admission qualifications?

No and it hurts the kids with the higher requirements.

 

[luthervol]

This seems like a good thread to throw this out.

My kids school has a 93-100 A scale. Another school in town has 90-100. Two students can make the same grade but have different GPAs.

Do colleges take that into consideration in their admission qualifications?

Most top tier schools do.

 

[KB5252]

As a parent my wife and I have an understanding with my daughter. We expect her to maintain A's and B's because we know she is capable. If she gets a C we consider that a warning, she is told that the grade should be brought up by her progress report or distractions like video games, phones, tablets etc are taken away until she corrects course.

Sometimes I worry that we are too strict, especially when we see the median grades some of her teachers supply us with, but then we go to parent teacher conferences and the school is barren and we realize her success is because we are involved, and she has some great teachers who know our expectations and reach out to us if they notice an issue or tend.

I get your frustrations with grades and mastery. I had many issues with testing. I understood material in my head much better than I could express on paper. It took me years as an adult to work past my learning disabilities and social anxiety.

 

[RollinVol]

A,B,C, You're in the top 3, D means diploma

 

[tntar heel]

As a parent my wife and I have an understanding with my daughter. We expect her to maintain A's and B's because we know she is capable. If she gets a C we consider that a warning, she is told that the grade should be brought up by her progress report or distractions like video games, phones, tablets etc are taken away until she corrects course.

Sometimes I worry that we are to strict, especially when we see the median grades done of her teachers supply us with, but then we go to parent teacher conferences and the school is barren and we realize her success is because we are involved, and she has some great teachers who know our expectation and reach out to us if they notice an issue or tend.

I get your frustrations with grades and mastery. I had many issues with testing. I understood material in my head much better than I could express in paper. It took me years as an adult to work past my learning disabilities and social anxiety.

Sadly can only give one like to this post.