Growing Trend of Midseason Redshirting Has Caused a Divide in College Football

[VFLBerg]

https://www.si.com/college/2019/10/08/redshirt-rule-midseason-transfers-reaction

 

[peaygolf]

The game I grew up loving (college football) is going down a road of self destruction. Selfish players and administration that are only in it for the $$ and selfish reasons.

Way too much to get into on a fan forum, but it’s safe to say that the sport will be vastly different in 10/15 yrs. JMO

 

[Lawrence Wright]

The game I grew up loving (college football) is going down a road of self destruction. Selfish players and administration that are only in it for the $$ and selfish reasons.

Way too much to get into on a fan forum, but it’s safe to say that the sport will be vastly different in 10/15 yrs. JMO

It’s vastly different now than it was 10-15 years ago.

And I’d argue many fans are no less selfish than the players putting it on the line each week.

Some administrations are better than others, but there’s no getting around the fact that CFB is a bigger business now than ever.

 

[VolRoger]

The game I grew up loving (college football) is going down a road of self destruction. Selfish players and administration that are only in it for the $$ and selfish reasons.

Way too much to get into on a fan forum, but it’s safe to say that the sport will be vastly different in 10/15 yrs. JMO

The game you grew up loving is doing exactly what I think is inevitable - it's transitioning to a professional league. The pro leagues like the NFL want their cake and eat it too. Namely, they want players ready to play on their level without having to invest monetarily into it. Just look at the legislation going through some states about players being paid for use of their image and name. How much money will the pro leagues have in that? The answer is little or nothing, and why should they? They haven't created this monster; the universities and big time sports media did with the apparel and tv contracts for conferences and their individual teams as well as the astronomical salaries and outlandish termination clauses for head coaches AND their staffs. I think the fans are just now waking up to the Ponzi scheme, but it's likely too late. As long as colleges and their coaches are getting paid big time, they really don't care if 103,000 people show up on game day as long as they've pre-sold enough tickets. Really, the last hope for amateur football and basketball is if the apparel and tv deals dry up and coaching salaries come down to much lower levels of pay, but don't hold your breath on either of those happening in the next 5 years. Every year fans talk about rebelling against higher ticket prices, movement of their team's game to ridiculous time slots to accommodate TV, coaches with sweetheart contracts like our very own CP, etc. Some don't realize that if they fired Pruitt today, the university owes hime 9.xM dollars EVEN IF HE GETS ANOTHER HEAD COACHING JOB tomorrow. There is no mediating factors for the liability. Other universities have given their head coaches even better terms to the point that they frankly hold the school hostage. Despite all this being openly known and discussed, there are enough fans buying those season tickets and/or packages at unbelievably high prices WITH donations not to mention their subscriptions to TV sports packages to keep the money train going in high gear. It would not surprise me that before the SEC's next contract has ended we don't have what is some ways a minor league system for college players with salary type compensation at least for some of them.

 

[peaygolf]

The game you grew up loving is doing exactly what I think is inevitable - it's transitioning to a professional league. The pro leagues like the NFL want their cake and eat it too. Namely, they want players ready to play on their level without having to invest monetarily into it. Just look at the legislation going through some states about players being paid for use of their image and name. How much money will the pro leagues have in that? The answer is little or nothing, and why should they? They haven't created this monster; the universities and big time sports media did with the apparel and tv contracts for conferences and their individual teams as well as the astronomical salaries and outlandish termination clauses for head coaches AND their staffs. I think the fans are just now waking up to the Ponzi scheme, but it's likely too late. As long as colleges and their coaches are getting paid big time, they really don't care if 103,000 people show up on game day as long as they've pre-sold enough tickets. Really, the last hope for amateur football and basketball is if the apparel and tv deals dry up and coaching salaries come down to much lower levels of pay, but don't hold your breath on either of those happening in the next 5 years. Every year fans talk about rebelling against higher ticket prices, movement of their team's game to ridiculous time slots to accommodate TV, coaches with sweetheart contracts like our very own CP, etc. Some don't realize that if they fired Pruitt today, the university owes hime 9.xM dollars EVEN IF HE GETS ANOTHER HEAD COACHING JOB tomorrow. There is no mediating factors for the liability. Other universities have given their head coaches even better terms to the point that they frankly hold the school hostage. Despite all this being openly known and discussed, there are enough fans buying those season tickets and/or packages at unbelievably high prices WITH donations not to mention their subscriptions to TV sports packages to keep the money train going in high gear. It would not surprise me that before the SEC's next contract has ended we don't have what is some ways a minor league system for college players with salary type compensation at least for some of them.

Exactly what I said..........self destruction from what we grew up loving. It's being ruined and will lose its luster. There is a reason that college stadiums are larger than the NFL.

 

[05_never_again]

It’s vastly different now than it was 10-15 years ago.

And I’d argue many fans are no less selfish than the players putting it on the line each week.

Some administrations are better than others, but there’s no getting around the fact that CFB is a bigger business now than ever.

Yep. The reason why "the players need to get paid" is getting so much uptake today, more than it ever has, is because of the level of money that is in the sport now. With every new TV deal, uniform deal, etc., that gets signed, it becomes harder and harder to justify the players seeing none of it. When college sports were conceived, I don't think anybody ever envisioned an era where they would bring in this much money, where some college coaches would make more money than professional coaches, etc.

 

[05_never_again]

Exactly what I said..........self destruction from what we grew up loving. It's being ruined and will lose its luster. There is a reason that college stadiums are larger than the NFL.

That's mostly because college football has been around longer than pro football, and in the earlier years of the sport college football was actually a better product in terms of talent on the field. There was still more money in those days in being a doctor, lawyer, businessman, etc. than playing football professionally.

The NFL today is quite a bit more popular than college - outside of the southeast (including Texas/Oklahoma) and upper midwest, CFB actually has pretty limited appeal. In the huge population centers (northeastern corridor from DC up through Boston and on the west coast) people don't really care about CFB.

 

[peaygolf]

That's mostly because college football has been around longer than pro football, and in the earlier years of the sport college football was actually a better product in terms of talent on the field. There was still more money in those days in being a doctor, lawyer, businessman, etc. than playing football professionally.

The NFL today is quite a bit more popular than college - outside of the southeast (including Texas/Oklahoma) and upper midwest, CFB actually has pretty limited appeal.

I get that, but not sure I agree with the "bold" part. In New England and Cali...maybe
Only thing I have been trying to say was the game is changing, and not for the better. JMO

 

[05_never_again]

I get that, but not sure I agree with the "bold" part. In New England and Cali...maybe
Only thing I have been trying to say was the game is changing, and not for the better. JMO

The game has always been changing. Way back in the day, it was a fairly common thought that offering scholarships to players was cheating, and athletes should be "regular students" just like everyone else. I mean, that's "unfair" to let someone go to your school for free simply because they are a good athlete, right?

What it boils down to is that college football and basketball was never intended to or "designed" to get this big financially. They never thought it would ever become this big of a deal. You ever talked to a European sports fan about college sports in the US? They are absolutely baffled by it and wonder why there isn't just a minor league system for these players. One really only exists for baseball. What we're trying to do for football and basketball is fit the existing structure (i.e., an amateur model where prospects go to college) into an era where a ton of these guys probably just need to enter straight into a system where they can turn pro immediately (whether in a major or minor league).

Interscholastic sports is simply not a thing there - they don't understand the concept of a "school team" that plays other school teams, and on the really good teams a bunch of the best players go pro. I love college sports, but if we were designing the system today, it wouldn't look like the system we have.

 

[05_never_again]

Also, as for this new trend of players redshirting midseason, the NCAA was absolutely asking for that when they changed the redshirt rules. You're allowed to dip your toe in so to speak by playing in up to 4 games, and if you don't like how things are going, you can redshirt and keep that entire year of eligibility. Same deal with the transfer portal and immediate eligibility. The NCAA is setting a precedent now where at least in certain cases, you can leave a school and play immediately at another one, like free agency.

So those types of changes are from the NCAA itself, not players asking for it.

Honestly, I find the redshirt rule a little troubling. A lot of people want college sports to be more like the pros - players getting paid, immediate eligibility after transferring, etc. OK. However, this redshirt deal doesn't have such a parallel to pro. For example, the Atlanta Falcons are struggling right now. Should Julio Jones, before he's played in a certain number of games in a season, be able to say "Nah, I'm out guys," sit out the rest of the season, but then somehow "preserve" that year on his contract (i.e., he doesn't lose any money on account of his not playing)? Because that's essentially what the redshirt rule does.

I understand the argument of paying players (or allowing them to sell their likeness) and immediate transfer eligibility. The redshirt thing is kind of crazy to me though.

 

[TUSKtimes]

I'm really not sure how a head coach that decides to redshirt a player is any different after 4 games than before the rule was in place. The player and family can decide for themselves if that is acceptable, just like before. If a player wants to redshirt and play an extra year at the same school and everyone is in agreement, so what? Still, business as usual.

On the other hand, players using the new redshirt system to transfer is all on the NCAA. Maybe more unintended consequences but still a major headache. Plug the dam for undergraduates. Put that one-year waiting period back in and show the players just how difficult a transfer can be. Fixing things that aren't broke can look mighty stupid, mighty quick.

Any graduate that would like to leave after or before their 4 games is fine with me. They honored enough of their commitment to do what they like.

 

[05_never_again]

I'm really not sure how a head coach that decides to redshirt a player is any different after 4 games than before the rule was in place. The player and family can decide for themselves if that is acceptable, just like before. If a player wants to redshirt and play an extra year at the same school and everyone is in agreement, so what? Still, business as usual.

On the other hand, players using the new redshirt system to transfer is all on the NCAA. Maybe more unintended consequences but still a major headache. Plug the dam for undergraduates. Put that one-year waiting period back in and show the players just how difficult a transfer can be. Fixing things that aren't broke can look mighty stupid, mighty quick.

Any graduate that would like to leave after or before their 4 games is fine with me. They honored enough of their commitment to do what they like.

It's different because now they effectively get to see how the season is going and if they get off to a rough start, they can just quit and try again next year. It's pretty obvious that's what King/Holgorsen are using it for. Sounds like a big time unintended consequence of the rule.

 

[TUSKtimes]

It's different because now they effectively get to see how the season is going and if they get off to a rough start, they can just quit and try again next year. It's pretty obvious that's what King/Holgorsen are using it for. Sounds like a big time unintended consequence of the rule.

Tell me how the same thing would work for power 5 teams and elite players? It wouldn't have worked with Houston's best player last season. Most elite players have zero interest of extending their college careers, beyond 3 years. Redshirt or not. This guy may be a decent QB but I seriously doubt he's heard the NFL calling his name. If they do, he may very well end up exercising option B. That would be the one Ed Oliver picked.

 

[05_never_again]

Tell me how the same thing would work for power 5 teams and elite players? It wouldn't have worked with Houston's best player last season. Most elite players have zero interest of extending their college careers, beyond 3 years. Redshirt or not. This guy may be a decent QB but I seriously doubt he's heard the NFL calling his name. If they do, he may very well end up exercising option B. That would be the one Ed Oliver picked.

It isn't as appealing an option for elite players with pro potential. I'm just saying that playing in 4 games, seeing how things go, then deciding you don't want to play because the team stinks and you'll come back next year (either there or someone else) wasn't the reason for that rule.

If they want to eliminate what Holgorsen is doing, allow just freshmen to play in 4 games and preserve a redshirt.

 

[TUSKtimes]

It isn't as appealing an option for elite players with pro potential. I'm just saying that playing in 4 games, seeing how things go, then deciding you don't want to play because the team stinks and you'll come back next year (either there or someone else) wasn't the reason for that rule.

If they want to eliminate what Holgorsen is doing, allow just freshmen to play in 4 games and preserve a redshirt.

The coaches could redshirt the same player because after 4 games he just isn't big enough, strong enough, experienced enough, or whatever. They can redshirt guys just because the position he plays is deep in the rotation.

Quinnen Williams of Alabama wasn't putting anyone in mind of the first defensive tackle taken in the NFL draft much less one of the elite as a freshman. He was a redshirt Sophomore when he just blew up. An Outland trophy later and a ton of accolades he was gone.

For me, the redshirt has always been around to help players and coaches to grow their team. I've never known the better athletes, who are getting media attention and who are catching the NFL's eye to be interested in a redshirt later in their career, if at all.

All the rest of these guys feels more like business as usual, except both player and coach get a much better look at the product.

 

[Gandalf]

All the more reason for smart scheduling in those first 4 games for a lot of teams. Stumble, and you could lose your star player. That is especially so for the mid-level teams who dont have many stars. Once again, like the 25 rule, it favors the programs that are already on top.

 

[LouderVol]

Exactly what I said..........self destruction from what we grew up loving. It's being ruined and will lose its luster. There is a reason that college stadiums are larger than the NFL.

We can only blame ourselves. Fans wanting to win. Fans running off coaches every year. Fans wanting more information. Fans wanting to watch the game at home.

Every thing that has caused money to go up can be traced to the fans.

 

[peaygolf]

We can only blame ourselves. Fans wanting to win. Fans running off coaches every year. Fans wanting more information. Fans wanting to watch the game at home.

Every thing that has caused money to go up can be traced to the fans.

agree....

Schools, fans, TV, etc.............doesn't matter who the blame goes to, nor do I care. It's just not as good as it was and it's getting worse. JMO

 

[Lawrence Wright]

Fans only have so much juice...take Tennessee fans. You guys want to win more than your administration has been willing to pay for an elite football coach, time and time again.

Yet Tennessee’s bottom line continues to be among the fattest in major CFB.

The fans weren’t clamoring for conference expansion, TV networks, apparel deals and million dollar luxury suites in renovated stadiums.

Schools and conferences are printing money now for sure, but I don’t love CFB any less than I did back as a seven year-old watching Tony Dorsett play for Pitt.

And I have no problem with college kids, on whose backs all this money is being made, have more power, flexibility and control.

 

[05_never_again]

Fans only have so much juice...take Tennessee fans. You guys want to win more than your administration has been willing to pay for an elite football coach, time and time again.

Yet Tennessee’s bottom line continues to be among the fattest in major CFB.

The fans weren’t clamoring for conference expansion, TV networks, apparel deals and million dollar luxury suites in renovated stadiums.

Schools and conferences are printing money now for sure, but I don’t love CFB any less than I did back as a seven year-old watching Tony Dorsett play for Pitt.

And I have no problem with college kids, on whose backs all this money is being made, have more power, flexibility and control.

One thing I wish about American sports (I guess this comment applies more to pro, but also can apply to college) is to have the financial performance of a franchise more tied to how successful they are on the field of play. Look at European soccer clubs. Quite often their finances are made or not made, even some of the big clubs, by being able to finish high enough to qualify for the Champions League. If teams with significant expenses (i.e., they have a lot of highly-paid players) go too long without qualifying for the CL and the financial windfall that brings, they'll run into financial trouble.

For most (all?) teams that are struggling, the additional money that can be made by having a great team isn't substantial enough to risk spending a lot of money in order to have a great team. For example, say you're currently bringing in $100/year, your expenses are $90, and the team absolutely stinks. Your revenue holds steady at $100 despite being terrible, because you have great fan support. Say it'll take $15 to improve the team substantially, and of course there's no guarantee that'll actually work. If it does work, that'll bring your revenue to $120 and your expenses to $105. The risk/reward simply isn't there. Do you want to risk $15 to make an additional $5? Most owners are perfectly content to stink and continue to make $10, and with revenue sharing and such, that is the economic environment most teams deal with.

There are a ton of NFL teams that stink and have stunk for a long time. The reason the franchises continue to go up in value isn't because they are good, but simply because they are in the NFL. The NFL is a major brand, and simply being in the league assigns a large dollar value to you. These owners can own the team for a number of years, and the team might not be all that profitable at all, but simply because it is an NFL team and all the publicity/money that comes with that, they'll hold the team for 15 years and sell it for 7x what they bought it.

 

[GVF]

The game you grew up loving is doing exactly what I think is inevitable - it's transitioning to a professional league. The pro leagues like the NFL want their cake and eat it too. Namely, they want players ready to play on their level without having to invest monetarily into it. Just look at the legislation going through some states about players being paid for use of their image and name. How much money will the pro leagues have in that? The answer is little or nothing, and why should they? They haven't created this monster; the universities and big time sports media did with the apparel and tv contracts for conferences and their individual teams as well as the astronomical salaries and outlandish termination clauses for head coaches AND their staffs. I think the fans are just now waking up to the Ponzi scheme, but it's likely too late. As long as colleges and their coaches are getting paid big time, they really don't care if 103,000 people show up on game day as long as they've pre-sold enough tickets. Really, the last hope for amateur football and basketball is if the apparel and tv deals dry up and coaching salaries come down to much lower levels of pay, but don't hold your breath on either of those happening in the next 5 years. Every year fans talk about rebelling against higher ticket prices, movement of their team's game to ridiculous time slots to accommodate TV, coaches with sweetheart contracts like our very own CP, etc. Some don't realize that if they fired Pruitt today, the university owes hime 9.xM dollars EVEN IF HE GETS ANOTHER HEAD COACHING JOB tomorrow. There is no mediating factors for the liability. Other universities have given their head coaches even better terms to the point that they frankly hold the school hostage. Despite all this being openly known and discussed, there are enough fans buying those season tickets and/or packages at unbelievably high prices WITH donations not to mention their subscriptions to TV sports packages to keep the money train going in high gear. It would not surprise me that before the SEC's next contract has ended we don't have what is some ways a minor league system for college players with salary type compensation at least for some of them.

QB's especially, are expected to be able to step in and start at the pro level by year 2, if not year one.

 

[LouderVol]

Fans only have so much juice...take Tennessee fans. You guys want to win more than your administration has been willing to pay for an elite football coach, time and time again.

Yet Tennessee’s bottom line continues to be among the fattest in major CFB.

The fans weren’t clamoring for conference expansion, TV networks, apparel deals and million dollar luxury suites in renovated stadiums.

Schools and conferences are printing money now for sure, but I don’t love CFB any less than I did back as a seven year-old watching Tony Dorsett play for Pitt.

And I have no problem with college kids, on whose backs all this money is being made, have more power, flexibility and control.

Pretty sure fans have been clamoring for conference expansions. Every year you see multiple threads here about what we want to see from conferences. Which teams to add. What new rivalries. What geographic locations make sense, and which dont. We may not drive the actual expansion but we are the force behind it.

TV deals. You bet your butt we are behind those. Who else watches and pays for that? I love the extra channels dedicated to the conferences, so much better than watching ESPN talk about crap that has no connection to what I want. Nationally televised games is 100 percent fan driven.

Apparel deals? Again who else buys that? And again if you pay attention to our little corner of the college football machine of VN the Nike deal was a huge move for the fans long unhappy with Addidas. We have several threads talking about uniforms and where to get the shirt coach was wearing, or what new shoe to buy.

Lastly the luxury suites are precisely for the fans. Not for you and me fans, but the fans with more money than sense. Look at new stadiums like Baylor, not as big but far nicer. Autzen stadium is the same I think. That's to get fans there.

You cant have a multi billion dollar industry and say the fans/consumers dont drive it.

 

[USMC-TNVOL]

Isn’t one of our WR’s redshirting, which definitely benefits us as that will be a huge are of need with all the graduates?

 

[Lawrence Wright]

Pretty sure fans have been clamoring for conference expansions. Every year you see multiple threads here about what we want to see from conferences. Which teams to add. What new rivalries. What geographic locations make sense, and which dont. We may not drive the actual expansion but we are the force behind it.

TV deals. You bet your butt we are behind those. Who else watches and pays for that? I love the extra channels dedicated to the conferences, so much better than watching ESPN talk about crap that has no connection to what I want. Nationally televised games is 100 percent fan driven.

Apparel deals? Again who else buys that? And again if you pay attention to our little corner of the college football machine of VN the Nike deal was a huge move for the fans long unhappy with Addidas. We have several threads talking about uniforms and where to get the shirt coach was wearing, or what new shoe to buy.

Lastly the luxury suites are precisely for the fans. Not for you and me fans, but the fans with more money than sense. Look at new stadiums like Baylor, not as big but far nicer. Autzen stadium is the same I think. That's to get fans there.

You cant have a multi billion dollar industry and say the fans/consumers dont drive it.

Disagree on conference expansion...fans don’t drive that bus, and I’d argue unless you’re a pre-2011 Texas A&M fan watching Texas run the Big 12, very few fans care about TV markets or in the case of pre-1992 SEC fans, have some sudden desire to travel to Fayetteville or Columbia.

TV deals benefit the fans indirectly, in that all games are televised and they don’t have to spend money to see every game in person. But who benefits more financially, the fans or the conferences?

Apparel deals are nothing more than Nike/Adidas/UA using college football teams as billboards for their product. The schools benefit directly in the form of financial compensation from shoe companies, AND from sales of Nike/Adidas/UA merchandise. Fans buying that merch is a means to an end driven by marketing efforts never before seen in CFB, not the result on fan bases demanding new stuff to buy.

We are in agreement on the luxury suites. They’re not for you or me, but for those donors who can write checks big enough to keep that engine running.

 

[n_huffhines]

The biggest problems with college football are problems that have always existed. It's not a level playing field and it never will be unless the NCAA does things they aren't willing to do. 40 games each week and you only end up with about 1-3 games that are both interesting and close. Out of 20 total playoff teams in 5 years, there have only been 10 different schools to make it. 4 of the current top 5 teams have been to the playoff multiple times. Amateurism is supposed to level the playing field but it does the opposite of that.

Put all the big $ teams in their own division, let them pay players, and watch as the playing field levels. Bama's 3rd string has more talent than our 1st string and there is no way that happens if we can put our $ on the table against theirs.