How do you justify this lunacy?

#1
jamesd1628

jamesd1628

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Aug 21, 2007
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#1
This question is for all you Obama-supporters out there. How can you possibly justify a vote in favor of Socialism? There are really only two possibilities here, namely:

1. You can try to argue that he's not a Socialist; or

2. You can recognize that he is one and try to explain how you can possibly support the man.

Well, let's hear it.

Oh, on a side note: The foregoing also applies to John McCain.

Discuss amongst yourselves . . . .
 
#5
#5
That someone would stand up and say that even the least of us deserve good medical care is truly a shocking development in American politics.


I understand your outrage.
 
#6
#6
How do you not support the Obamasiah with quotes like this.

Obama.jpg


"I am absolutely certain that generations from now we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began to provide care for the sick. This was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal."
 
#7
#7
VolDad said:
How do you not support the Obamasiah with quotes like this.

View attachment 12252


"I am absolutely certain that generations from now we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began to provide care for the sick. This was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal."
Click to expand...

:huh:
 
#8
#8
orange+white=heaven said:
That someone would stand up and say that even the least of us deserve good medical care is truly a shocking development in American politics.


I understand your outrage.
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somehow you're implying that the least don't get medical care. I'm not sure how anyone makes that assertion.
 
#9
#9
You have to make assertions of that type. It is about the only way to deal with option number 2 of Jamesd's original post.
 
#10
#10
BigPapaVol said:
somehow you're implying that the least don't get medical care. I'm not sure how anyone makes that assertion.
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I say least only as catch for those who can't afford or can't get medical insurance. We don't have far to go as a country to close the gap completely, why not take those steps. Washington actually wants to, the sides just differ on how to go about it. Let's have that debate and land at reasonable legislation.

Standing aghast and crying socialism serves no purpose on this matter to me.
 
#11
#11
orange+white=heaven said:
That someone would stand up and say that even the least of us deserve good medical care is truly a shocking development in American politics.


I understand your outrage.
Click to expand...

America already has the best health care in the world.

Socialist health-care systems in other countries don't work.

Virtually anything the government tries to operate is a failure.

Socialism has been tried over and over again - it has never worked. It never will.

Obama saying that he will provide healthcare is nothing more than an attempt to buy votes based on ignorant sympathies. Unfortunately, that seems to work.

The government can't provide anything - all they can do is take money from one part of the population and give it to someone else. That's called theft, robbery, plunder, etc. It's a crime if an individual tries to do it, it's called Socialism if the government does it.
 
#12
#12
orange+white=heaven said:
I say least only as catch for those who can't afford or can't get medical insurance. We don't have far to go as a country to close the gap completely, why not take those steps. Washington actually wants to, the sides just differ on how to go about it. Let's have that debate and land at reasonable legislation.

Standing aghast and crying socialism serves no purpose on this matter to me.
Click to expand...

"Those steps" always lead to bigger steps, then bigger, until the government runs the whole show. If/when that happens, the system will be ruined forever. None of use will ever have good healthcare again. Socialist healtcare will punish everyone because nobody will be able to get good healthcare in a quick and timely manner. Can't you see that the government will screw up the system beyond repair?
 
#13
#13
orange+white=heaven said:
I say least only as catch for those who can't afford or can't get medical insurance. We don't have far to go as a country to close the gap completely, why not take those steps. Washington actually wants to, the sides just differ on how to go about it. Let's have that debate and land at reasonable legislation.

Standing aghast and crying socialism serves no purpose on this matter to me.
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the price of the legislation is the problem, not the legislation itself.

Today, the cost of the free care is borne by the docs and hospitals, who pass it on to those of us paying via the capitalist system. Sticking the gov't in the middle of that process only makes is less efficient and more expensive.

IMO, Washington should even further remove itself from the healthcare arena and we could probably find a solution that even better cared for those in the lurch.

I think the socialism cry is much more about Obama's worldview than it is the medicine debate.

Finally, what's wrong with calling a spade a spade?
 
#14
#14
orange+white=heaven said:
I say least only as catch for those who can't afford or can't get medical insurance. We don't have far to go as a country to close the gap completely, why not take those steps. Washington actually wants to, the sides just differ on how to go about it. Let's have that debate and land at reasonable legislation.

Standing aghast and crying socialism serves no purpose on this matter to me.
Click to expand...

I think that is a symptom of medical care being so expensive because of many different factors. Those need to be fixed first and then at least some portion of those who cannot afford it now will be able to. Just making a blanket statement that we will have the same medical care for all does nothing to help, it will only make medical care as a whole less accessible and poorer quality.
 
#15
#15
Frederick Bastiat wrote this in the 1850s when France was struggling with Socialism:

You say: "There are persons who have no money," and you turn to the law. But the law is not a breast that fills itself with milk. Nor are the lacteal veins of the law supplied with milk from a source outside the society. Nothing can enter the public treasury for the benefit of one citizen or one class unless other citizens and other classes have been forced to send it in. If every person draws from the treasury the amount that he has put in it, it is true that the law then plunders nobody. But this procedure does nothing for the persons who have no money. It does not promote equality of income. The law can be an instrument of equalization only as it takes from some persons and gives to other persons. When the law does this, it is an instrument of plunder.

With this in mind, examine the protective tariffs, subsidies, guaranteed profits, guaranteed jobs, relief and welfare schemes, public education, progressive taxation, free credit, and public works. You will find that they are always based on legal plunder, organized injustice.

It obviously still applies.
 
#16
#16
jamesd1628 said:
America already has the best health care in the world.

Socialist health-care systems in other countries don't work.

Virtually anything the government tries to operate is a failure.

Socialism has been tried over and over again - it has never worked. It never will.

Obama saying that he will provide healthcare is nothing more than an attempt to buy votes based on ignorant sympathies. Unfortunately, that seems to work.

The government can't provide anything - all they can do is take money from one part of the population and give it to someone else. That's called theft, robbery, plunder, etc. It's a crime if an individual tries to do it, it's called Socialism if the government does it.
Click to expand...


couldn't have said it better myself. why do you think ppl from other countries who have the universal healthcare come here??? maybe because their healthcare blows

universal healthcare would be one of the worst things that could happen
 
#17
#17
jamesd1628 said:
America already has the best health care in the world.

Socialist health-care systems in other countries don't work.

Virtually anything the government tries to operate is a failure.

Socialism has been tried over and over again - it has never worked. It never will.

Obama saying that he will provide healthcare is nothing more than an attempt to buy votes based on ignorant sympathies. Unfortunately, that seems to work.

The government can't provide anything - all they can do is take money from one part of the population and give it to someone else. That's called theft, robbery, plunder, etc. It's a crime if an individual tries to do it, it's called Socialism if the government does it.
Click to expand...

The U. S. doesn't have the best healthcare system in the world. According to the WHO, we come in at 37th, and it's been that way for long time.

This problem is part of what fuels the debate about socialized medicine. The private insurance companies, being competitors is a free market, want to provide the least amount of care for the highest amount of premium (that the market will bear). There's going to have to be more money coming into our system from somewhere to pay for a lot of capital improvements unless we are to remain at 37th and falling. Personally, I'm not sure I would say it's got to be government that provides here, but something needs to be done.
 
#19
#19
jdsa said:
Poor choice of words.
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It may seem so at first blush, but if you dig into the origin of the phrase

From this article

The phrase was introduced to English in 1542 in Nicolas Udall's translation of Erasmus, Apophthegmes, that is to saie, prompte saiynges. First gathered by Erasmus:
Philippus aunswered, that the Macedonians wer feloes of no fyne witte in their termes but altogether grosse, clubbyshe, and rusticall, as they whiche had not the witte to calle a spade by any other name then a spade. The cPanel® records a more forceful variant, "to call a spade a bloody shovel", attested since 1919.
The phrase predates the use of the word "spade" as an ethnic slur, which was not recorded in usage until 1928.
Oscar Wilde in his novel The Picture of Dorian Gray (ch. XVII) decries realism in literature through Lord Henry's words:
“ The man who could call a spade a spade should be compelled to use one. ”
Click to expand...
 
#20
#20
jdsa said:
The U. S. doesn't have the best healthcare system in the world. According to the WHO, we come in at 37th, and it's been that way for long time.
Click to expand...

We actually score near the top IIRC on most of the indicators except for equal access measures.

In other words, if you define quality of care as does everyone get the same level of care, we score in the middle. If you define it as the actual care that an individual receives, we are at or near the top.

As you say, the debate centers around the best way to ensure all can get care. IMHO, we've regulated a system into one that is virtually impossible to repair to achieve the goal of care for all. Neither the plan from Obama nor McCain solve this problem. Obama's creates more additional problems than McCain's does.
 
#21
#21
He had already lost points when referring to the WHO's ranking the US as 37th in healthcare systems.
 
#22
#22
jdsa said:
The U. S. doesn't have the best healthcare system in the world. According to the WHO, we come in at 37th, and it's been that way for long time.

This problem is part of what fuels the debate about socialized medicine. The private insurance companies, being competitors is a free market, want to provide the least amount of care for the highest amount of premium (that the market will bear). There's going to have to be more money coming into our system from somewhere to pay for a lot of capital improvements unless we are to remain at 37th and falling. Personally, I'm not sure I would say it's got to be government that provides here, but something needs to be done.
Click to expand...

The current problems with our healthcare system are the result of current and past government intervention in the system. Insurance and medicine are two of the most heavily regulated areas we have. The fact is, the healthcare market is not a free market in the US now, and that is the source of of the current problems. Get the government out of it and it will fix itself. But regardless, the fact remains, the current problems in the system will pale in comparison to the problems we will have if the government fully takes over the system. That will result in a complete and total failure of the system.
 
#24
#24
if you guys want an example of how competition in the medical field or insurance works. just take a look at lasik surgery. when it first came out, it was 6-8 thousand dollars an eye. once more doctors started performing the procedure then the cost went down a great deal. now you can get eye surgery for about $1,000 an eye and that's with a life time guarantee.

it works the same in health insurance, let the companies compete without regulations and you'll see more services offered at a better price.
 
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