I know more about boxing than you

#1
kidbourbon

kidbourbon

Disgusting!
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Nov 12, 2005
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#1
Good way to get a thread going, eh?

First topic of conversation: Best heavyweights of all time. Here is the criteria. Take the heavyweight at their prime, and ask how they would fare against the rest of the heavyweights in their prime. Career records aren't a concern to me. Prime vs. Prime... who wins.

Here is my top ten:
1. Clay/Ali (64-67): This man could not be touched, much less beaten. He was further ahead of his game than Jordan was ahead of his or Tiger is ahead of his. He was a 6-3, 215 pound heavyweight with the speed of a lightweight. An absolute freak of nature before the ban. After he beat Liston in '64, I think he defended his title 9 times. Watch those fights. Watch the mastery. He didn't just beat his opponents...he toyed with them. I don't think anyone has come along since that can match the size/speed/boxing skill/and deceptive power of the 64-67 Clay/Ali. He was great when he came back....but never even close to where he was in the 60's.

2. Jack Johnson (can look up prime years): Was like 60 years ahead of his time in terms of size and agility. He could box too. For about ten years, nobody was even playing the same sport as Jack Johnson...he was that much better than everybody else. I put him below the 64-67 Ali because Ali knew how to move better and was a more advanced boxer. Ali would have beaten him.

3. George Foreman (73-75): The loss to Ali set his career in a downward spiral. If that hadn't happened, nobody would have beaten him for a long long time.

4. Larry Holmes (78-83) -- never fully appreciated. Not his fault he came after Ali and before Tyson. Great fighter. He was Ali's sparring partner when Ali fought foreman in Zaire. Watch some of that tape. Holmes held his own and sometimes dominated Ali.

5. Lennox Lewis (his prime was the handful or so of fights that he actually got up and prepared for...and showed how truly great he was) -- I know he was a slight puss, but when he got up for a fight, he nearly always dominated

6. Mike Tyson (86-89): He flamed out quickly, but -- in his short prime -- he was a faster, meaner version of Joe Frazier. Still, a young Ali, a young Holmes, Lennox Lewis at any age, and a young Foreman would have beaten him. Too quick for Joe Louis...would have knocked him out early.

7. Joe Louis -- Sorry guys. Call me names all you will, but Joe Louis was under 200 pounds and fought flat footed. Putting him this high is actually a favor.

8. Sonny Liston -- His career resembles tyson in some respects. Feared and seemingly unbeatable....until he got beat. Not a tough fighter, though. He got frustrated if he didn't knock the other guy out and would pretty much give up. This is why I think Joe Louis would beat him.

9. Marciano -- A lot of boxing aficionado's may questiion having marciano this low. But, really, he was 189 pounds....does anyone really think he could beat Lennox Lewis? I don't. Tyson would have destroyed him. Ali could have beaten him with one hand.

10. Gene Tunney -- I guess I have to put one of those 1920's-30's boxers on the list. I flipped a coin and went with Tunney. He beat Dempsey twice...he deserves the nod.
 
#2
#2
My top heavyweights

1. Ali - The only guy I know who wouldn't put Ali at #1 is my father. If you listened to him, you'd swear that Rocky Marciano was the greatest thing since sliced bread. But Ali is indeed, the greatest heavyweight of all time, and probably the greatest boxer of all time.

2. Tyson - Back in the mid-late 80's, many thought Ali had met his equal in the ring. Tyson was that damn good back in the day. And really, his career didn't take the downward spiral that most thought he had, even though his life might have. I mean, his career record is 50-6, with a win that was ruled a NC due to Mike testing positive for weed. So really, he's 51-6.

3. Foreman - A 76-5 record throughout his career. Wins over Frazier and Ken Norton. Yea, this is a good place for him at #3.

4. "Smokin" Joe Frazier - His fights with Ali were epic, and he held the title for 5 years, or 3, depending on how you quantify a World Heavyweight Championship.

5. Joe Louis - Yea, I put him at 5, wanna fight about it? But really, he was one of the greatest fighters of all time. To me, the win that puts him into the top 5 was his win over Max Schmeling in the 1st round in 1938. In Yankee Stadium, no less.
 
#3
#3
nickknx865 said:
My top heavyweights

1. Ali - The only guy I know who wouldn't put Ali at #1 is my father. If you listened to him, you'd swear that Rocky Marciano was the greatest thing since sliced bread. But Ali is indeed, the greatest heavyweight of all time, and probably the greatest boxer of all time.

2. Tyson - Back in the mid-late 80's, many thought Ali had met his equal in the ring. Tyson was that damn good back in the day. And really, his career didn't take the downward spiral that most thought he had, even though his life might have. I mean, his career record is 50-6, with a win that was ruled a NC due to Mike testing positive for weed. So really, he's 51-6.

3. Foreman - A 76-5 record throughout his career. Wins over Frazier and Ken Norton. Yea, this is a good place for him at #3.

4. "Smokin" Joe Frazier - His fights with Ali were epic, and he held the title for 5 years, or 3, depending on how you quantify a World Heavyweight Championship.

5. Joe Louis - Yea, I put him at 5, wanna fight about it? But really, he was one of the greatest fighters of all time. To me, the win that puts him into the top 5 was his win over Max Schmeling in the 1st round in 1938. In Yankee Stadium, no less.
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Frazier is way down on my list. He was the third (maybe fourth) best fighter of his era. He can't crack my top ten. If the 64-67 Ali fights frazier...it is an easy fight for Ali. He wins 9 of 12 rounds in a decision, and doesn't get the crap beat out of him.

Tyson (86-89) would have annihilated Frazier. Wouldn't have even been close. I tend to think Holmes and Lennox Lewis would have done the same.
 
#4
#4
nickknx865 said:
My top heavyweights

1. Ali - The only guy I know who wouldn't put Ali at #1 is my father. If you listened to him, you'd swear that Rocky Marciano was the greatest thing since sliced bread. But Ali is indeed, the greatest heavyweight of all time, and probably the greatest boxer of all time.

2. Tyson - Back in the mid-late 80's, many thought Ali had met his equal in the ring. Tyson was that damn good back in the day. And really, his career didn't take the downward spiral that most thought he had, even though his life might have. I mean, his career record is 50-6, with a win that was ruled a NC due to Mike testing positive for weed. So really, he's 51-6.

3. Foreman - A 76-5 record throughout his career. Wins over Frazier and Ken Norton. Yea, this is a good place for him at #3.

4. "Smokin" Joe Frazier - His fights with Ali were epic, and he held the title for 5 years, or 3, depending on how you quantify a World Heavyweight Championship.

5. Joe Louis - Yea, I put him at 5, wanna fight about it? But really, he was one of the greatest fighters of all time. To me, the win that puts him into the top 5 was his win over Max Schmeling in the 1st round in 1938. In Yankee Stadium, no less.
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Regarding Marciano. Your dad is wrong, and I would tell him (respectfully) to his face. Marciano got lucky to fight in a very favorable era. He fought at the end of the Joe Louis era, and before Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, and then Ali came along.

Honestly, Marciano size-wise and style-wise was fairly comparable to George Chuvalo. Ali fought Chuvalo in '65. It went the distance, but Ali controlled the fight and it was never in question. You just couldn't hit Ali back then. He was too long and too fast. He was 30 pounds heavier than Marciano and twice as fast. I don't care how much heart Marciano had...it wouldn't have been a close fight.
 
#5
#5
kidbourbon said:
Regarding Marciano. Your dad is wrong, and I would tell him (respectfully) to his face. Marciano got lucky to fight in a very favorable era. He fought at the end of the Joe Louis era, and before Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, and then Ali came along.
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Believe it or not, I've told him almost this exact same thing.
 
#6
#6
good list, bourbon. I might drop Tyson a bit , though. He came along in a down era, and his greatest scalps are a scared light heavyweight in Spinks, and Razor Ruddock.
 
#7
#7
"Joe Louis was 157 years old when he fought Rocky Marciano."
 
#10
#10
More dominant than Tiger is a stretch. Never has another player in golf been the best in the game in so many categories. His 2000 tour de force was absolute dominance in a nearly undominateable sport (and yes, I made up a word).

This from a guy who isn't a Tiger fan.
 
#11
#11
I couldn't decide on a top ten, so I just went with the era in which they fought.

1900-20s, Jack Johnson-Sam Langford-Jim Jeffries-Jack Dempsy
20-30, Gene Tunney-Jack Dempsey-Max Schmeling
40-50, Joe Louis-Ezzard Charles
50-60, Rocky Marciano-Sonny Liston
60-70, Muhammad Ali-Joe Frazier
70-80, Muhammad Ali-George Foreman-Joe Frazier
80-90, Mike Tyson-Larry Holmes
90-00, Lennox Lewis-Evander Holyfield-Mike Tyson
00-xx, Lennox Lewis-Wladimir Klitschko-Vitali Klitschko
 
#13
#13
kidbourbon said:
Good way to get a thread going, eh?

First topic of conversation: Best heavyweights of all time. Here is the criteria. Take the heavyweight at their prime, and ask how they would fare against the rest of the heavyweights in their prime. Career records aren't a concern to me. Prime vs. Prime... who wins.

3. George Foreman (73-75): The loss to Ali set his career in a downward spiral. If that hadn't happened, nobody would have beaten him for a long long time.
Click to expand...

I disagree. 70's Foreman wasn't ruined by Ali, he was exposed by Ali. If he had nothing left, he would have lost or looked very bad in the fights following the Zaire debacle. But he didnt. He had some decent ko victories until outpointed by another speedy boxer, Jimmy Young. Had Holmes been fighting in that era, same thing would have likely happened because styles make fights. Old George just wasn't that smart of a fighter and couldn't adapt to mobile boxers who had enough chin to withstand his crude, clubbing attack.

9. Marciano -- A lot of boxing aficionado's may questiion having marciano this low. But, really, he was 189 pounds....does anyone really think he could beat Lennox Lewis? I don't. Tyson would have destroyed him. Ali could have beaten him with one hand.
Click to expand...

Wrong wrong wrong. Ali.Out box him? Yes. Easily? No. Same goes for your assertion that Tyson would have destroyed him. The only reasoning seeming to be that he was 189 lbs.

Anyone who ever fought the Rock or even met the man was amazed by what a freak of nature he was; just bumping into the man hurt. He could look graceless and clumsy at times but he was one of the hardest punchers of all time at any weight and had the whiskers to take the considerable return fire. And unlike Tyson, Marciano was USED to adversity and would never fold up and go into cruise control like Tyson did.(Bonecrusher, Tucker)

As for his chances against "The Greatest"... Marciano on the surface resembles guys Ali has handled before. But if you dont realize theres a world of difference between fighters such as George Chuvalo or Henry Cooper and The Rock, I don't know what to tell you. He would make Ali earn the victory, every second of every round filled with pressure.
 
#14
#14
BigPapaVol said:
More dominant than Tiger is a stretch. Never has another player in golf been the best in the game in so many categories. His 2000 tour de force was absolute dominance in a nearly undominateable sport (and yes, I made up a word).

This from a guy who isn't a Tiger fan.
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This is definitely an 'apples to oranges' type discussion, so neither one of is "right" on this one. Tiger is a tough one to surpass, but I will stick to my guns on this one. Nobody could even the pre-ban Ali...and I don't mean that figuratively. He made Sonny Liston -- probably the most feared heavyweight who had ever come along at that time -- look like an awkward amateur. And he toyed with Floyd Patterson like he was shadowboxing with a twelve year old. The closest fight of the "pre-ban" era was the Chuvalo fight. And that fight wasn't even remotely close. Chuvalo was a game fighter with a ridiculous chin. But Ali put on a masterful display of boxing for 15 rounds and probably didn't lose a round.

There are parallels between Tiger and Ali in that both had the natural gifts, and both had pretty much trained all their lives (Tiger since he was an infant; Ali since he was 12) to do their sport. An athlete who is more physically gifted and also more skilled than everybody else in their sport is a rare occurrence. Both guys fall into that category.

I wish we could have seen a couple more years of that young Ali. The Liston fight in '64 and the 9 title defenses (minus the "phantom punch" fight) are joys to behold. Poetry in motion.
 
#16
#16
Svengali said:
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Wrong wrong wrong. Ali.Out box him? Yes. Easily? No. Same goes for your assertion that Tyson would have destroyed him. The only reasoning seeming to be that he was 189 lbs.

Anyone who ever fought the Rock or even met the man was amazed by what a freak of nature he was; just bumping into the man hurt. He could look graceless and clumsy at times but he was one of the hardest punchers of all time at any weight and had the whiskers to take the considerable return fire. And unlike Tyson, Marciano was USED to adversity and would never fold up and go into cruise control like Tyson did.(Bonecrusher, Tucker)

As for his chances against "The Greatest"... Marciano on the surface resembles guys Ali has handled before. But if you dont realize theres a world of difference between fighters such as George Chuvalo or Henry Cooper and The Rock, I don't know what to tell you. He would make Ali earn the victory, every second of every round filled with pressure.
Click to expand...

I am not saying Chuvalo was as good as Marciano. I know about Marciano and about how aggressive he was and about how hard he hit and about how he had a ridiculous motor and could seemingly punch all day without getting tired.

All that being said, however, Marciano's physical limitations as far as weight and speed would have prevented him from utilizing all of his tools in a fight against Ali. What I am saying, essentially, is that it would have been quite irrelevant how heavy and active Marciano's hands were. Why would it have been irrelevant? Because he would never have landed a direct shot on Ali. Ali was too fast and too long. Ali would have jabbed him to death all night from the outside while constantly moving and giving Marciano absolutely nothing to hit.

Ask yourself this. If Rocky Balboa had fought Apollo Creed in real life, and not in a fictional screenplay written by Stallone, what would have been the outcome? Think Carl Weathers, a former NFL linebacker with ridiculous athleticism and who actually demonstrated very good boxing skills and footwork in those fights (he must have done some serious boxing training before those movies, a la Will Smith), versus 180 lb Sylvester Stallone (please do not respond by pointing out that Marciano was obviously better than Sylvester Stallone. I know this. It is just an example to illustrte the point...that Marciano would have been unable to overcome the physical limitations and prevail against Ali).

I don't wish to write a novella here, but suffice it to say that the Ali vs. Marciano question isn't actually a question. It isn't a close call.
 
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#17
#17
Svengali said:
I disagree. 70's Foreman wasn't ruined by Ali, he was exposed by Ali. If he had nothing left, he would have lost or looked very bad in the fights following the Zaire debacle. But he didnt. He had some decent ko victories until outpointed by another speedy boxer, Jimmy Young. Had Holmes been fighting in that era, same thing would have likely happened because styles make fights. Old George just wasn't that smart of a fighter and couldn't adapt to mobile boxers who had enough chin to withstand his crude, clubbing attack.
.
Click to expand...

Here, I think you present a very good argument. It may have been that Ali simply exposed Foreman, which led to his decline. The other explanation you will hear is that Foreman wasn't mentally right after the Ali fight (he became deeply deeply depressed), and that it affected his training and his performance generally.
 
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#18
#18
Reading about some of these old fights I remember seeing makes me wish there fights of this caliber happening today, especially in the heavy weight class. All the best fighters today are the smaller guys, I really miss the big dogs fighting it out.
 
#19
#19
KB5252 said:
Reading about some of these old fights I remember seeing makes me wish there fights of this caliber happening today, especially in the heavy weight class. All the best fighters today are the smaller guys, I really miss the big dogs fighting it out.
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Yeah, the golden era of heavyweights is way back in the rearview and a return does not appear to be anywhere in forward sight.

I don't even follow the heavyweights anymore. The middle and lighter weights are much more intriguing. I love me some Floyd Mayweather.
 
#20
#20
KB5252 said:
Reading about some of these old fights I remember seeing makes me wish there fights of this caliber happening today, especially in the heavy weight class. All the best fighters today are the smaller guys, I really miss the big dogs fighting it out.
Click to expand...

I hope that isn't keeping you from watching some of the lower weight classes, there are some absolutely amazing fights and fighters that are out there right now. This past year or two has been some of the best boxing I can remember in quite a while, and its only going to get better this fall. Some of the upcoming fights have the potential to be fantastic.

Now if they could just fix the damn judging, we'd really be in for a treat. That Malinaggi v Diaz fight was pathetic and a horrible reminder of whats wrong with the sport still.
 
#21
#21
kidbourbon said:
Cooney was right on the bubble. Hurricane Peter McNeely was a couple spots behind.
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Ugh, McNeely has to be the worst tomato can in the history of boxing.

I remember the "hype" for the Tyson return to the ring, and McNeely's line, "I'm Peter McNeely, from Bedford, Mass, come (insert date) I'm going to kick Tyson's as*"

At least Cooney went some rounds with Holmes before getting beat to death.
 
#22
#22
kidbourbon said:
Yeah, the golden era of heavyweights is way back in the rearview and a return does not appear to be anywhere in forward sight.

I don't even follow the heavyweights anymore. The middle and lighter weights are much more intriguing. I love me some Floyd Mayweather.
Click to expand...

I enjoyed the heavyweight division when it was Holyfield's time. He had some epic fights with Riddick Bowe.

Lennox kept me interested for a while. Now, with the Russian fighters and no American's worth a damn, I could care less.

Mayweather v. Marquez could be a good fight. I saw where Marquez drinks his own piss, because he doesn't want to lose the vitamins and minerals. Guess he's never been to a GNC...

I'm a big MMA fan now. If boxing could somehow resurrect the heavyweight division, I would get back into the game more.

Anderson Silva is a bad, bad man in the octagon. However, he wants to box Roy Jones. BOX Roy Jones. This will be a tragic failure if he follows through with his plan.
 
#23
#23
-Boxing should go back to having fights on Saturday afternoons on ABC when football season is in the dead zone.

-Revamp the PPV structure. More Pay Per Views at lower costs.

-I was listening to a boxing aficionado say that their is enough talent in boxing now that their should be a boxing PPV every month. But I would personally be fine with the free boxing like I mentioned earlier..... if the talent is really there.

-It would be great to have only one federation instead of whatever they got going on now.

-I haven't watched boxing in a long time, but my favorite fight was Thunder Gotti vs Angel Manfredy (sp) on HBO more than ten years ago. I hear the Gotti/Ward matches are the best but I havent got to see those...yet.
 
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