Ichiro

#3
#3
Vercingetorix said:
Tony Gwynn has chunks of Ichiro caked under his toilet seat.
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Except the fact that Ichiro isn't a one trick blimp like Gwynn was for most of his career, that's possible. Gwynn is arguably the most overrated player of the last half century.
 
#4
#4
hatvol96 said:
Except the fact that Ichiro isn't a one trick blimp like Gwynn was for most of his career, that's possible. Gwynn is arguably the most overrated player of the last half century.
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When your one trick is hitting .340 every year, I'm not sure you can be overrated. Granted, after age 30 he stopped stealing bases and was only an average outfielder, but still.
 
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#5
#5
I use the "if" test. If its a clutch spot and you need a base hit who do you send to the plate. My choice is Ichiro.
 
#6
#6
If my math is correct, 1,813 of Ichiro's 2,230 hits in the major leagues have been singles, which works out to roughly 81%. That sounds insane.

For comparison's sake, 2,378 of Gwynn's 3,141 hits were singles, or about 76%.
 
#7
#7
GAVol said:
When your one trick is hitting .340 every year, I'm not sure you can be overrated. Granted, after age 30 he stopped stealing bases and was only an average outfielder, but still.
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When you're a bases clogging lardass who doesn't drive in runs, hitting .340 isn't as big a deal as some people would like to sell it as.
 
#8
#8
tidwell said:
If my math is correct, 1,813 of Ichiro's 2,230 hits in the major leagues have been singles, which works out to roughly 81%. That sounds insane.

For comparison's sake, 2,378 of Gwynn's 3,141 hits were singles, or about 76%.
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That's the crazy thing about Ichiro. I watched him take batting practice in Oakland one night and he hit the ball further than anyone else on either team. The Seattle people always talk about how he could, if he wanted to sacrifice a little batting average, he could hit 30 home runs every year.
 
#9
#9
hatvol96 said:
That's the crazy thing about Ichiro. I watched him take batting practice in Oakland one night and he hit the ball further than anyone else on either team. The Seattle people always talk about how he could, if he wanted to sacrifice a little batting average, he could hit 30 home runs every year.
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That's what I heard many times, ichiro puts on as good of a BP show as anyone.
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#10
#10
hatvol96 said:
That's the crazy thing about Ichiro. I watched him take batting practice in Oakland one night and he hit the ball further than anyone else on either team. The Seattle people always talk about how he could, if he wanted to sacrifice a little batting average, he could hit 30 home runs every year.
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Which would make him about 10 times more valuable a player. I'm not sure why it's a feather in his cap if he's really being worse on purpose.

I don't disagree that Gwynn is overrated, as all high-average singles hitters are. (See my endless argument in the Braves thread where I got excoriated for calling them "waiters.") But as a singles hitter, he was better than Ichiro, lardass and all. Wade Boggs was better than Ichiro. Rod Carew was better than Ichiro. Pete Rose was better than Ichiro, at least prior to the last seven useless years of his career. Etc.

(Although all those guys drew more walks than Ichiro and most of them had more power. If you want to concentrate on one tiny sliver of baseball skill -- hitting singles -- and divorce it from anything else that you're supposed to be doing at the plate, then yes, Ichiro does that as well as anybody has ever done it.)
 
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#12
#12
Ichiro's 10 yrs and 3000 hits in Japan makes his MLB stats even more impressive.
 
#13
#13
Vercingetorix said:
Which would make him about 10 times more valuable a player. I'm not sure why it's a feather in his cap if he's really being worse on purpose.

I don't disagree that Gwynn is overrated, as all high-average singles hitters are. (See my endless argument in the Braves thread where I got excoriated for calling them "waiters.") But as a singles hitter, he was better than Ichiro, lardass and all. Wade Boggs was better than Ichiro. Rod Carew was better than Ichiro. Pete Rose was better than Ichiro, at least prior to the last seven useless years of his career. Etc.

(Although all those guys drew more walks than Ichiro and most of them had more power. If you want to concentrate on one tiny sliver of baseball skill -- hitting singles -- and divorce it from anything else that you're supposed to be doing at the plate, then yes, Ichiro does that as well as anybody has ever done it.)
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This is absolute garbage. You are very consistent in the fact that you always type out well thought out articulate responses but it doesn't make them correct.

Ichiro is a LEADOFF hitter. He is supposed to get on base and put pressure on the defense. Not hit HR's. Name another guy that has been with the Mairiners since Ichiro's time there that would have been a legitimately better leadoff hitter?

Ichiro is invaluable because he can do so many things but what he does best is get on base hitting a "lousy" single and then puts pressure on defense because he can steal bases.

I hate to break it to you but not every team can fill their roster with 30 HR's guys who drive in 100+ each year. They have to have "waiters" as you would say...Ichiro is perfect in that role but if he comes up with men on he is more than capable of driving one out or in the gap if needed.
 
#14
#14
VOLinthaATL said:
This is absolute garbage. You are very consistent in the fact that you always type out well thought out articulate responses but it doesn't make them correct.

Ichiro is a LEADOFF hitter. He is supposed to get on base and put pressure on the defense. Not hit HR's. Name another guy that has been with the Mairiners since Ichiro's time there that would have been a legitimately better leadoff hitter?

Ichiro is invaluable because he can do so many things but what he does best is get on base hitting a "lousy" single and then puts pressure on defense because he can steal bases.

I hate to break it to you but not every team can fill their roster with 30 HR's guys who drive in 100+ each year. They have to have "waiters" as you would say...Ichiro is perfect in that role but if he comes up with men on he is more than capable of driving one out or in the gap if needed.
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If Ichiro's so great, how many times has he been in the playoffs?

I'll save you the effort -- once, in his first year in the majors. And Edgar Martinez and a roided-up Bret Boone carried the water on that team, not Ichiro.

When the best hitter on your team is a singles hitter -- even arguably the best singles hitter of all time -- you sit home and watch the playoffs on TV.
 
#15
#15
Vercingetorix said:
If Ichiro's so great, how many times has he been in the playoffs?

I'll save you the effort -- once, in his first year in the majors. And Edgar Martinez and a roided-up Bret Boone carried the water on that team, not Ichiro.

When the best hitter on your team is a singles hitter -- even arguably the best singles hitter of all time -- you sit home and watch the playoffs on TV.
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You are unbelieveable. Nice way to change your argument to fit your agenda. Did you vote for Obama?

It was the player in discussion. Not if he helped him team get in the playoffs. The Mairiner's orginazation has sucked since Jr. and A-Rod left. I guess that's Ichiro's fault that Seattle failed to sign or draft any other players of that caliber. I know you like to dream that every team is full of all stars and guys who hit bombs at every position but that's not reality.

Do you think that if Ichiro batter 3rd in the lineup his whole career and hit 20+ HR's and drove in 100+ that the Mariner's would have gone to the playoffs each year? If so, I have Ryan Zimmerman on the line, he'd like to know Ichiro's secret to being able to construct his own team around him.
 
#16
#16
VOLinthaATL said:
You are unbelieveable. Nice way to change your argument to fit your agenda. Did you vote for Obama?

It was the player in discussion. Not if he helped him team get in the playoffs. The Mairiner's orginazation has sucked since Jr. and A-Rod left. I guess that's Ichiro's fault that Seattle failed to sign or draft any other players of that caliber. I know you like to dream that every team is full of all stars and guys who hit bombs at every position but that's not reality.

Do you think that if Ichiro batter 3rd in the lineup his whole career and hit 20+ HR's and drove in 100+ that the Mariner's would have gone to the playoffs each year? If so, I have Ryan Zimmerman on the line, he'd like to know Ichiro's secret to being able to construct his own team around him.
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Ichiro would probably have to cut down on the lousy singles, taking pitches, and stealing bases to do this but the Mariner's would have been playoff bound each year so it's all good.
 
#17
#17
VOLinthaATL said:
You are unbelieveable. Nice way to change your argument to fit your agenda. Did you vote for Obama?

It was the player in discussion. Not if he helped him team get in the playoffs. The Mairiner's orginazation has sucked since Jr. and A-Rod left. I guess that's Ichiro's fault that Seattle failed to sign or draft any other players of that caliber. I know you like to dream that every team is full of all stars and guys who hit bombs at every position but that's not reality.

Do you think that if Ichiro batter 3rd in the lineup his whole career and hit 20+ HR's and drove in 100+ that the Mariner's would have gone to the playoffs each year? If so, I have Ryan Zimmerman on the line, he'd like to know Ichiro's secret to being able to construct his own team around him.
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You know what would be a good start towards turning the Mariners into a playoff team? Having a legit #3 hitter. If Ichiro really could magically turn himself a guy who hit "only" .290 but with 25-30 homers a year, and he were hitting third and driving in some other leadoff hitter -- and guys with a career OBP of .376 like Ichiro are not that hard to find for the top of your order -- then the Mariners would be a hell of a lot better off than the way they are now, with a guy who hits 200 singles a year and gets stranded on base most of the time.

I'm totally unsurprised that you think Ichiro is awesome. He's overrated, mostly useless, and yet the baseball cliche guys love him. So he's exactly your kind of player. Go read the Dave Eckstein article I posted, I bet that will really make you angry.
 
#18
#18
Just occurred to me that is probably worth tying this thread in with the ROY discussion by pointing out that the great Ichiro -- arguably the greatest singles hitter of all time, somebody whose entire job is to "get on base and put pressure on the defense" -- has a career OBP 25 points lower than a Braves' rookie outfielder who played through a bad thumb injury for 20 percent of his plate appearances.
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#21
#21
You said Ichiro was mostly useless, overrated, and only a singles hitter. It's a waste of my time to try and argue with that stupidity. Again, just because you say it and type it well doesn't mean it's right. Hate to break it to you.
 
#22
#22
VOLinthaATL said:
You said Ichiro was mostly useless, overrated, and only a singles hitter. It's a waste of my time to try and argue with that stupidity. Again, just because you say it and type it well doesn't mean it's right. Hate to break it to you.
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You are certainly not convincing me otherwise by your total inability to mount a counterargument other than "garbage!" Every time we get into an argument, you get to a point where you just stomp your foot and tell me that I'm wrong because you say so.

For all of his singles-hitting prowess, Ichiro does not have a particularly spectacular career OBP -- hell, a benchwarmer like Infante has the same OBP as Ichiro this year. If his job is to get on base, as you said it is, then OBP is really a lot better measure of how well he's doing that job than anything else, right? And a leadoff hitter with a career OBP of .376 shouldn't be that hard to replace. Please explain how the Mariners wouldn't be better off with a legitimate #3 hitter driving in some other leadoff hitter than they are with Ichiro getting stranded on base 175 times a year.
 
#23
#23
At .360 Ichiro's current OBP is 17th in the AL with not 1 regular leadoff hitter ahead of him. Seems like he could replace the leadoff hitters on alot of teams.
 
#24
#24
Felix Hernandez is 13-12 with a 2.27 era and 9 of his 12 losses came when the M's scored 1 or 0. Must be that bum Ichiro's fault.
 
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