in state/regional recruits vs. national recruits

[jakez4ut]

we make a big deal about how we go out and recruit nationally...but does that hurt us sometimes from a "pride" stand point?

Not that we don't get talented players, not questioning that. But do we have enough guys on our team that can make a differenence, i.e. an Al Wilson type, that truly care about and know UT football?

you know, the kind of kid that grows up just wanting to play for ut, and when he get his shot, he becomes that leader, that guy that knows what it means to play a game against Bama, UGA, Auburn, Vandy, KY etc...

Bama and Aub consistenly have huge amounts of in state talent, GOOD talent that truly know about their respective schools and what it means to play for them...Same with all the Florida schools, TX schools, GA schools etc...

I know we don't have the in state talent in TN that some of the other states do, and i know we do relatively well in some of those other states, but usually you get that kid and he grew up a UGA fan or whatever...

I don't know, probably way off base here...but when you get a kid from NJ, OH, CA, whatever...do they really know when they get here what it means to play for UT? do they know the history?

Oh well, just wondering if anyone ever thought of that at all...

 

[Liper]

What you're saying could make some sense, I suppose. However, great players come out of non-native schools all of the time.

The NFL is probably the best example. There is really no such thing as a "childhood favorite" NFL team, in so far as it relates to reality. Ladanian Tomlinson isn't the best RB in the NFL because he has always liked the Chargers.

I'm not shooting it down altogether, but, in my opinion, this blood, guts, and pride things gets a little too much play. I think it comes down to teaching, training, disciplining, organizing, and execution. Good coaches can take any group of talented kids and get them ready.

Maybe I'm wrong but that's my view...in case you were wondering.

 

[jakez4ut]

no, you're right...that's why i asked...i just don't know....

I do think though in CFB, pride etc...does play an important role...it may not dictate who's the best player on the team or who will make the best NFL player later...but i'm a big believer in the mantra "who wants it more?".

And for me, a kid that grew up in the South, that has kept up with CFB down here and grew up a fan...would generally "want it more" than a kid that grew up in NJ that never saw a UT/Bama game liven and in person...

it probably doesn't have any bearing on the current situation, and probably had nothing to do with it when we were doing great either...

I guess i've seen Rudy too many times. :lol:

 

[Liper]

Well, I'd sure work like heck if I was playing in a TN-BAMA game.

Some of those rivalries do bleed into the new guys, but never at the level of a native.

I went to college and played a sport outside Tennessee. But I always remained a Vol fan. The school I played at had a FIERCE in-state rival. That rivalry never quite rubbed me as strong as the people who had internalized it all of the lives. So that is true I think.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I was born in TN and grew up a Vols fan. I went to UGA for two years and wore my orange proudly on campus. Something just can't seem to get me to root for UGA unless it somehow benefits UT. My loyalty is to UT but free tuition went to UGA.

 

[surrealvol]

I think most of the blood and guts effort has to come from within a guy and from coaching...instilling pride in the effort, the team, and the university.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I'd like to think there still are a lot of kids out there who have pictures of Smokey, Neyland Stadium, and a few UT players on the wall. But in all reality now there are too many other factors in where kids go to play sports in college. Stepping stones to the pros, chances to start as early as they can, getting away from parents or whatever. Now with parents acting more like managers promoting some sort of product rather than their own child, there's no guarantee anymore. Coaches have to placate parents more than ever and reputation means more as well. Coaches are feeling more blackmailed with parents telling them if you don't guarantee my son to play he's more likely to go elsewhere. The biggest example of parental power is the Leak family and the Clausen family.

 

[volbreaker]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 23, 2005 2:29 PM
Well, I'd sure work like heck if I was playing in a TN-BAMA game.

Some of those rivalries do bleed into the new guys, but never at the level of a native.

I went to college and played a sport outside Tennessee.  But I always remained a Vol fan.  The school I played at had a FIERCE in-state rival.  That rivalry never quite rubbed me as strong as the people who had internalized it all of the lives.  So that is true I think.

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Same for me Liper( played elsewhere), But as you said you never shook the vols thing mentally. Even if we are talking border guys like...historically..Faulkner(or inners like TD)....they knew the deal and sold-out to accomplish it. I think the NFL is a different story, but I differ because I look to you and Lex et al for great insight and info. So, I could be off-base here. I know that there are a lot of out-of-ststers that I want to come here, naturally. I just think that if there was a different staff and approach to game time we'd have the Patrick Turners of the world...and the trade0offs to non-caring, non-stetching for the catch, improper route runners may do better to stay home and show some passion rather than using us as an NFL stepping stone!!!

 

[tidwell]

This was brought up on a high school message board that I browse... someone mentioned that UT needs more home-grown boys that grow up dreaming about running through the T on gamedays. Not that out of state or region players wouldn't play with as much pride, but that some more homegrown talent wouldn't hurt.

 

[DAWGNATION]

Is there any known reason why Tenn. high school football produces less talent? Lets face it. There is only 1 college in Tn that kids dream of playing for. (no its not Vandy). Tenn has several large cities (Memphis, Nashville, Knoxville, Chatt.) and is a good size population. I live in South Carolina and we do not have the population but it seems Clemson, and South Carolina have a fair share of home grown talent. Ask UT how they stacked up recently the last time they played these schools. Is it just a lack of finances to get quality high school coaches? Or is there a system failure in the High SChool league? Or has girls basketball replaced football all together?

 

[bleedingorange]

Originally posted by jakez4ut@Nov 23, 2005 2:03 PM
we make a big deal about how we go out and recruit nationally...but does that hurt us sometimes from a "pride" stand point?

Not that we don't get talented players, not questioning that.  But do we have enough guys on our team that can make a differenence, i.e. an Al Wilson type, that truly care about and know UT football?

you know, the kind of kid that grows up just wanting to play for ut, and when he get his shot, he becomes that leader, that guy that knows what it means to play a game against Bama, UGA, Auburn, Vandy, KY etc...

Bama and Aub consistenly have huge amounts of in state talent, GOOD talent that truly know about their respective schools and what it means to play for them...Same with all the Florida schools, TX schools, GA schools etc...

I know we don't have the in state talent in TN that some of the other states do, and i know we do relatively well in some of those other states, but usually you get that kid and he grew up a UGA fan or whatever...

I don't know, probably way off base here...but when you get a kid from NJ, OH, CA, whatever...do they really know when they get here what it means to play for UT?  do they know the history? 

Oh well, just wondering if anyone ever thought of that at all...

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I think u are exactly right, I see it hard for these west coast kids to come in here and give it there all for the orange and white. This is probably one of many problems we got right now, we need some homegrown kids with some heart.

 

[rockydoc]

Originally posted by DAWGNATION@Nov 23, 2005 4:18 PM
Is there any known reason why Tenn. high school football produces less talent? Lets face it. There is only 1 college in Tn that kids dream of playing for. (no its not Vandy).  Tenn has several large cities (Memphis, Nashville, Knoxville, Chatt.) and is a good size population. I live in South Carolina and we do not have the population but it seems Clemson, and South Carolina have a fair share of home grown talent. Ask UT how they stacked up recently the last time they played these schools.  Is it just a lack of finances to get quality high school coaches? Or is there a system failure in the High SChool league?  Or has girls basketball replaced football all together?

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I think Tennessee actually produces more talent than it is given credit for and UT recruiting nationally misses some in state talent such as Patrick Willis at Ole Miss and the Vandy WR.

Also, the demographics are not favorable as the state is long and narrow with UT being in East Tennessee. Plus the fact that
(and I don"t want this to sound racial) Tennessee doesn't have as large of a population of blacks as most other southern states except in the Memphis area. There we have to compete with four other SEC schools that are closer geographally to Memphis plus the University of Memphis.

I agree with the original poster that it is the best to have more native state players and withe the population growing in the state especially in the Nashville area this will become a reality.

 

[Jasongivm6]

The reason our in-state talent is sub-par is because we "get our corn from a jar." Dirt's too rocky by far, so instead of producing real "cornbred" kids who are strong, we produce weaker and smaller kids. :clapping:

 

[DAWGNATION]

:lolabove:

 

[General Jack]

I've wondered and worried about the same thing, whether we're too "national" and don't get enough kids that would sell their soul for the orange and white...

Not sure I have an opinion one way or the other. Some of our great mid to late 90s teams had just as many kids from out of state. Shoot, Peyton was from out of state and he's one of the greatest VOLS of all time. Shuler, Pickens, Dale Carter, Alvin Harper, Travis Henry... list is very long of dedicated and/or outstanding VOL contributers not from Tennessee.

I think the difference recently is that we haven't had any great leaders on the squad - the Al Wilson types. Players who demand the 110% out of the team. It really hurts when we don't have that, because the coaches don't demand 110%.

However, I would love to get 80% of all in-state bluechip talent. We need it, and given our tradition and fan base, deserve it as we are the premier football school in the state.

 

[milohimself]

Originally posted by DAWGNATION@Nov 23, 2005 2:18 PM
Is there any known reason why Tenn. high school football produces less talent? Lets face it. There is only 1 college in Tn that kids dream of playing for. (no its not Vandy).  Tenn has several large cities (Memphis, Nashville, Knoxville, Chatt.) and is a good size population. I live in South Carolina and we do not have the population but it seems Clemson, and South Carolina have a fair share of home grown talent. Ask UT how they stacked up recently the last time they played these schools.  Is it just a lack of finances to get quality high school coaches? Or is there a system failure in the High SChool league?  Or has girls basketball replaced football all together?

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There are some in central and west Tennessee, but those kids seem to have more interest in the Alabama and Mississippi schools. I don't think I've seen too many big recruits come from east TN.

Getting as many local players as possible is a good idea, but the problem is the area isn't talent-laden so you have to bring in players from elsewhere. Why do you think USC, Texas, Miami and Florida State are always so talented? Tons of HS talent from those areas that each program's coach can practically go cherry picking for players. Tennessee doesn't have that luxury.

 

[JohnsonCityVol]

Originally posted by milohimself@Nov 24, 2005 8:05 PM
There are some in central and west Tennessee, but those kids seem to have more interest in the Alabama and Mississippi schools. I don't think I've seen too many big recruits come from east TN.

Getting as many local players as possible is a good idea, but the problem is the area isn't talent-laden so you have to bring in players from elsewhere. Why do you think USC, Texas, Miami and Florida State are always so talented? Tons of HS talent from those areas that each program's coach can practically go cherry picking for players. Tennessee doesn't have that luxury.

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There is a bit of a breakdown at the high school level because TSSAA has some ludicrous classifications that exist for football but no other sports. As part of that consequence, there's not a lot of good coaches in NE-TN except at the established perrennial powers. The other schools go through coaches like socks.

The biggest RB recruit in NE-TN is going to Vandy on an academic scholarship. There are talented players that if given the chance could be solid role players on a team like Tennessee, but they're never looked at. All the scholarships are held for other recruits. A NE-TN player usually has to walk on and then hope for a scholarship later. I know Alex Walls was a walk on. I can't remember if Jason Witten was or not. But his older brother, Shaun, wasn't even looked at by UT when he was in high school so he went to VaTech.

Right now, arguably the 2nd and 3rd best RB's in NE-TN are playing in a playoff game in Hampton. And I guarantee no one is looking at them from any college. That might be because one's a sophomore and one's a junior though.

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by milohimself@Nov 24, 2005 8:05 PM
There are some in central and west Tennessee, but those kids seem to have more interest in the Alabama and Mississippi schools. I don't think I've seen too many big recruits come from east TN.

Getting as many local players as possible is a good idea, but the problem is the area isn't talent-laden so you have to bring in players from elsewhere. Why do you think USC, Texas, Miami and Florida State are always so talented? Tons of HS talent from those areas that each program's coach can practically go cherry picking for players. Tennessee doesn't have that luxury.

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CPF agrees with getting good local talent, assuming it is good enough to win in the SEC.

BTW, the schools mentioned certainly have good local talent. However, only when the coaching staff has been good has (a) that talent been brought in or (B) that talent been used for winning.

USC and Texas have only been there in recent years and under their current respective regimes. Unreal, huh? Nah, coaching is a big deal on college football.

 

[wncvolfan]

Maybe Tennessee has the same high school situation that NC has. Especially in WNC there are so many small high schools with 300-400 students who have football programs. The large consolidate schools (1200 to 1600) are few and far between but these are the ones that have the top notch coaches, facillities, and conditioning equipment. End result: also the best atheletes.

It's sad to go to some of these small school games where they can only get 20 to 25 kids out. They end up killing them by playing them both ways. It's hard to develop offensive skills in practice when you have to learn to play defense as well. I really believe this holds down their production and raises less attention with recruiters, although some of them could be great division 1 atheletes if only played one way.

Also, the state playoff system over here sucks. There are now 8 divisions in the playoffs which means about 60% of the teams make the playoffs. (We have teams in the first round with records as bad as 2-9. And guess who they get first...you got it, the #1 seed.) With the "endowment" games added, A team has to play up to 16 games to play in the state championship final. Kids get sick of football by the second week in December. They normally get only one bye in the whole season.

I think this is why only once in a few years does a Jonothan Crompton come along over here. By the way, he changed schools in his junior year to go to a school with a larger student body and a higher profile program. If he's stayed where he was, he'd be redshirting at Western Carolina instead of Tennessee.

And finally, Johnny White from Asheville High who's is committed to North Carolina, got hurt in a plyoff game last night and his season may be over. That was in the third round with two more rounds to go.

 

[Lexvol]

Think of it this way. In Tennessee and Kentucky for that matter, you may have one D I player participating in every highschool game. If UT got all of those players, they would be recruiting good DI talent that had competed against scrubs.

Whereas in Fla, Texas, and California there are three to four DI prospects playing in every game, and sometimes more. Not only are they great athletes, but they have also played against top level competition consitently. That is a huge difference maker when it comes to recruiting.

 

[milohimself]

Originally posted by wncvolfan@Nov 26, 2005 4:26 PM
Maybe Tennessee has the same high school situation that NC has. Especially in WNC there are so many small high schools with 300-400 students who have football programs.  The large  consolidate schools (1200 to 1600) are few and far between but these are the ones that have the top notch coaches, facillities, and conditioning equipment. End result:  also the best atheletes.

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Good point. Most of the Oregon public schools with top-notch athletics programs have student populations in the area of 2,000-2,500 kids. That's excluding the handful of athletics-oriented private schools, with around 1,000 kids.

Go into Seattle or Souther California and it's not unusual to see high schools with more students than some colleges. Schools with 5,000 kids in attendance.

 

[evolved]

I think this is why only once in a few years does a Jonothan Crompton come along over here. By the way, he changed schools in his junior year to go to a school with a larger student body and a higher profile program. If he's stayed where he was, he'd be redshirting at Western Carolina instead of Tennessee.

Jon transfered in order to play with his coach that took a job at a rival school. Jon would be at UT regardless of where he played his Jr and Sr years. He already had his offer from Tenn at that point in time.