Interesting archeological discovery.

#1

gsvol

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#1
http://www.therightperspective.org/2008/12/05/the-legenday-white-skinned-cloud-people-of-peru/

Archeologists have discovered a 12-acre lost city deep within the Amazon rain forest that may shed light on a long-lost tribe of white-skinned, blonde-haired people known as the Cloud People.

The Cloud People, also known in legend as “the white warriors of the clouds” established expansive kingdom located in the northern regions of the Andes in present-day Peru during the ninth century. Bordered by the Maranon and Utcubamba rivers, in the zone of Bagua, their civilzation extended up to the basin of the Abiseo river, and to the very edges of Peru’s northern Amazon jungle.
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Past archeological discoveries were so heavily looted that little was left to learn about the Cloud People, who are referred to as Chachapoyas in Inca legends. Other pre-hispanic groups referred to the Cloud People as “White Gods” due to their height, blonde hair and blue eyes.
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The Cloud People are probably best known for the Kuellap fortress on the top of a mountain in Utcubamba, which can only be compared in scale to the Incas’ Machu Picchu retreat, built hundreds of years later.

kuelapfortresshor01.jpg
 
#2
#2
You may not know this, but I'm actually a direct descendant of the Cloud People.

We are, indeed, badass warriors.
 
#4
#4
Dont think they were referring to the "mushroom cloud" people. :)

I don't follow. Am I radioactive? Am I a 70-100 year old Hiroshima/Nagasaki native? Am I a head?

I'm none of those. I am a badass cloud people warrior.
 
#8
#8
What's so special about it? Tall, blond haired and blue eyed people... sounds like I'm a Cloud instead of a Swede.

What kind of racist spin are you going to put on this?
 
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#9
#9
Dont think they were referring to the "mushroom cloud" people. :)

Nor people in a mushroom induced halucinagenic fog! :)






That's some pretty interesting stuff.

More interesting archeological stuff:


native-americans-vikings-iceland_29390_600x450.jpg


Viking barley in Greenland | Archaeology News from Past Horizons

From their shape and size, the grains were positively identified as barley and they came from local agricultural production.

Wild barley is not strong enough to grow in Greenland, says Henriksen, who also rules out imported barley, as even small quantities of grain would be too much for the cargo hold of the Vikings’ ships.

“If the cereal grains had been imported, it would have already been threshed, so finding parts of grains of barley is a very strong indication that the Vikings grew their own,” he adds.
 
#11
#11
http://www.kuelapperu.com/kuelap/

(this link may not work so I produce as much as I can from the original.)

Kuelap is the largest building structure of the Americas. It is estimated to contain 3 times more material than Egypt’s largest pyramid. Peru considers Kuelap to be as good as Machu Picchu and is trying to make this its equal 2nd major destination. It is twice as old as the Incas and in remarkably better condition before restoration.

Kuelap is an unknown giant just waking up. Peru is a huge country the size of the 5 west coast states, California, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, and Montana.

At present 99% of the tourists only go from Lima to the south while only 1% goes to the void north of Lima. Until this new century, the largest unexplored mountains in the in the Americas was in this zone. The Andes would stretch from San Francisco to London, with only the Himalayans higher. When the Spanish arrived, the Incas ruled the Andes.

The reason this zone is America's best kept secret is that the first dirt vehicle road came only 35 years ago.

Previous to this the natives say that few came or went by their only access, -- a two-month walk on ancient Inca major routes. One “Inca highway” goes through here in a partially explored zone from Columbia to the Inca heartland. Another unexplored lateral route goes from Levanto and Kuelap to the coast through Cajamarca where the Inca was captured. This former Kuelap East-West road may have been the “gold and feather route” used by the spectacular Moche and Chimu cultures from the coast to the Moyobamba jungles zone. No other cultures reached their superior level of goldsmiths, and hundreds of pyramids.

Kuelap’s mystery has barely been studied. Construction began about 800AD at the same time that the Andes’ most spectacular empire began its expansion from Bolivia. This was the Tiahuanaco or Wari Empire, known as “The Golden City Building Era of the Andes”, or the Middle Horizon. The Wari (or Huari) built most of the “Inca roads and trails” and almost every ancient city. They were in power 300 years compared to less than 100 years of the Incas. The Wari evolved to an empire of cities sustained by a sophisticated transportation system implying specialization of labor, engineers, artisans, etc. Today the Wari Empire is barely known because the Spanish did not discover and document them with their gold. A parallel comparison would be similar to the Mayans which the Spanish ignored because of their decline in power and gold.

Today the world’s interest in the Mayan Culture has grown to pass the Aztecs, as studies reveal their ability to write and build spectacular cities & structures. A great reference book about the complete Andes history is “The People and Cultures of Ancient Peru” by Luis Lambrates, translated into English by the Smithsonian Institution Press.

Now it seems that Kuelap was not built by the empire but rather a confederation of the Chachapoyan Cloud People to stop the Wari invasion. A relative short distance across the Marinon River was the most advanced stronghold cities of the Wari in the north of Peru at Cajamarca and Huamachuco. A glaring fact is that on the other side of the river, all of the pottery and artifacts mirrors the Bolivian style of the empire. The total lack of Wari artifacts in this zone would indicate the Wari either could not defeat the Chachapoyans, -- or were themselves defeated at Kuelap causing the collapse of the empire at that time.

The greatest mystery of the Chachapoyan Cloud People was, “who were they”? How would they know to start construction of mountain top citadels and fortresses 250 years before the Wari advanced to conquer them? Was it a coincident that Kuelap was completed at just the right time to stop them?

John Hemming wrote in “Conquest of the Incas” that Kuelap was the strongest fortification in the Americas, and if the Inca could have made a stand there, - the Spanish horses and artillery would be useless and history might have been different today. Keith Muscutt wrote in his book that this zone was so heavily populated in the past, -- it would be unlikely today to go to any likely peak in the cloud forest, and NOT FIND a lost stone citadel. Being made of stone, these ruins can be found today. I have been approached 10 times in the last couple of years by pioneers wanting me to see an “undiscovered ruins” they have found on their land.

Vanquished cultures of the Andes usually were displaced to lower areas and the jungles. An interesting fact was the Incas first began their conquest after Inca Pachacutec defeated the Chancas from Wari. At that time the Chancas were the former Wari Empire culture, - but now in decline. Later when the Incas were approaching their peak, the former Wari nation bolted and fled from the Inca influence. Their king said that their elite class were like the Incas in that they came from a strange land elsewhere, so their pride wouldn’t allow them to remain under Inca domination.

So, where did the former Wari flee as the most secure place of the entire Andes? They fled down in the lower slopes below Kuelap in the jungle of Lamas. Did they perceive that the Incas couldn’t defeat the Chachapoyans to get to them? Even today these former Wari people contrast drastically in their customs, clothing and appearance from the jungle cultures. Now ANOTHER large stretch of speculation of displaced cultures being forced to lower jungle areas. PERHAPS one could conclude and believe a predominance of the fair skin and often blond people living in the nearby jungle of Rodrigues de Mendoza were the former Chachapoyan Cloud People?

Inca chronicles and legends persist that the Cloud People were tall fair (skin and hair) warriors. This is reinforced by an unusually large proportion of blond, fair natives in this zone who know of no European ancestry.

However Julio C. Tello and anthropologists speculate the Chachapoyans may have been a jungle culture that migrated there through the Magdalena Valley of Columbia, and preferred the mountaintops. Whatever case, the Cloud People don’t fit the pattern of other Andeans. They lived behind walls in well crafted stone round houses with a pointed thatch “tepee” roof. One would suspect they farmed better land below the cloud forest, which wasn’t leached out and eroded, but lived on the peaks.

This zone gets seasonal rains from November to April, but Kuelap is always accessible. The dry season is from June to October but still has brief showers that are usually tiny droplets. This is caused by moist air of the jungle, pushed up over the peaks causing it to chill. This humid air condensates forming almost perpetual clouds, -- just before the droplets get large enough to rain. In this environment air plants dominate so bromeliads, orchids and moss cover the trees and stone citadels. Rapid clouds coming and going create photogenic panoramas adding a veiled mystery to the peaks.

This zone is called “la ceja de la selva”, - meaning the eyebrow of the Amazon. Above the ceja is the nightly freeze line which is a bald grassland high on the crest of the cordillera. Below the cloud forest are often desert river valleys where often only cactus will grow. A dense forest forms a band 2/3 of the way up the cordillera, resembling an eyebrow overlooking the Amazon Basin. After the clouds were chilled being pushed over the peaks, they dive downwards and warm up so the vapor turns to gasses, and the clouds disappear before your eyes. There are spectacular rainbows every day. The rainfall may be a drastic 2 to 3 meters difference from the valleys to the peaks and only a very few kilometers vertically away. All of this creates thousands of mini ecological zones, depending on elevation, sun orientation or prevailing winds, etc. The Incas had access to many jungle medicines, -- but a majority of their best medical plants were adapted to these mini-ecological zones. Today’s fad is to search for lower jungle medical plants while neglecting these more likely ones at higher altitudes, which have even a greater threat of deforestation.

Kuelap’s five walls inside of walls contain over 400 buildings. Each wall is from one to two telephone poles high with its 2nd level walls being the highest, extending a kilometer along a mountain ridge overlooking the Utcabamba River.

Some think Kuelap was positioned to defend the Gran Vilaya region that was heavily populated behind Kuelap and the cordillera. There are some mysterious structures inside the fortress. One is a large cone shaped stone structure, defying gravity with the top much larger diameter than the bottom. Now the inside of this “tenador” (ink well), is shaped like a rose bud vase, - or a light bulb without the plug. The top hole is about ½ meter diameter, and a few meters down below, it opens into a large circular room. Some think it was a prison. Others think it was an oracle observatory where the shaman can be inside to observe a special star pass over “the lens” to signal an exact time or event of the year.

A separate odd stone structure is an 8 pointed star with the longest 4 points pointing EXACTLY to north, south, east & west. Now at the north end a high stone tower is called the mitador, or observatory. From here signals could be sent to Choctomal that could relay the signal around the valley’s bend to another ruins high on the Abra Yumal Pass. This would then relay the signal to Gran Vilaya (which some think Kuelap was built to defend).
 
#12
#12
What's so special about it? Tall, blond haired and blue eyed people... sounds like I'm a Cloud instead of a Swede.

What kind of racist spin are you going to put on this?

So you are a Swede?

That explains a lot.

I have a Norwegian friend who insists all Swedes are sissies because they didn't resist the nazis in WWII.

But wait, I thought we were talking about mushrooms.

Amanita Muscaria


Perhaps no other ethnobotanical is more shrouded in mystery and intrigue than the Amanita Muscaria mushroom. Some scholars have suggested that the Viking berserkers ate the mushroom before battle to enter a frenzied state. Others have claimed that it is the legendary intoxicant Soma, worshipped as a God by early Hindus. In Western culture, it is the mushroom of fairy tales, a symbol of both poison and magic. For generations, the tribal shamans of Siberia and the Pacific Northwest have ingested Amanita Muscaria to enter Altered States of Consciousness.

The active ingredient in Amanita is muscimol which is converted from ibotenic acid through decarboxylation when the mushroom is dried. The Amanita trip typically begins with feelings of euphoria and peaceful bliss. As the muscimol sets in, individuals can experience intense psychedelic effects, such as auditory and visual hallucinations. Other side effects include increased strength and stamina. Individuals may also feel strong urges to move, dance or sing. The nervous system becomes highly stimulated under the influence of the Amanita mushroom and physical movements feel extremely exaggerated. An individual’s natural tendencies will strongly dominate and be performed with increased vigor and energy. For example, a person who enjoys talking will talk incessantly and a person who enjoys dancing will dance continuously.


Another theory is that they will make an egocentric person claim to be a god or be some sort of cloud warrior. :loco:

Ever heard of ther Mandan Indians?
 
#13
#13
There's your racist spin...

I've had Amanita Muscaria tea... it's for pansy asses who can't chop a man's head off without seeing rainbows come out.
 
#14
#14
There's your racist spin...

I've had Amanita Muscaria tea... it's for pansy asses who can't chop a man's head off without seeing rainbows come out.

I bet you think telache is the ultimate drug?

It's funny you speak of pansy asses, that's generally how I think of you.

More on the topic at hand:

Nazca Lines - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

The Nazca lines are geoglyphs and geometric line clearings in the Peruvian desert. They were made by the Nazca people, who flourished between 200 BCE and 600 CE along rivers and streams that flow from the Andes. The desert itself runs for over 1,400 miles along the Pacific Ocean. The area of the Nazca art is called the Pampa Colorada (Red Plain). It is 15 miles wide and runs some 37 miles parallel to the Andes and the sea. Dark red surface stones and soil have been cleared away, exposing the lighter-colored subsoil, creating the "lines". There is no sand in this desert. From the air, the "lines" include not only lines and geometric shapes, but also depictions of animals and plants in stylized forms. Some of the forms, including images of humans, grace the steep hillsides at the edge of the desert.

The Nazca lines are communal. Their creation took hundreds of years and required a large number of people working on the project.
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The mystery is why. Why did the Nazca engage in such a project involving so many people for so many years?
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In any case, similar figures to the giants at Nazca decorate the pottery found in nearby burial sites and it is apparent from their cemeteries that the Nazca were preoccupied with death. Mummified remains litter the desert, discarded by grave robbers. Was this a place for rituals aimed at bringing immortality to the dead? We don't know, but if this mystery is ever to be cleared up it will be by serious scientists, not by alienated pseudoscientific speculators molding the data to fit their extraterrestrial musings.

More:

Chachapoyas, Kuelap and Cajamarca - Peru Northern Kingdoms -Chachapoyas - Inkanatura Travel Peru
 
#17
#17

Win the future?

Know history.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0916_040916_chachapoya.html

Sean Savoy, leader of the Gran Saposoa-El Dorado IV Expedition (July-August 2004), points out a stone cross in bas relief at the main plaza of the "Las Cruces" citadel at Gran Saposoa in the Andes mountains of northern Peru. The site, originally uncovered in September 1999 and excavated in 2001, was further explored and cleared this year. The latest expedition estimates at least 200 structures at the Las Cruces citadel, one among a half dozen main citadels at Gran Saposoa.
 
#18
#18
not really understanding why a discovery from 3 years ago is so interesting now
 
#20
#20
Did you know the Huns would smoke massive amounts of crack cocaine before pillaging a town?

They never actually rode horseback... they just ran really fast.
 
#22
#22
The ancient Dravidian peoples of India once rode around Southern India atop unicorns while smoking PCP until the Aryan Indo-Europeans conquered them.
 
#23
#23
I am trying to figure out what this has to do with politics.

Someone please explain? Thanks.
 
#24
#24
mesopotamia was home to a unique brood of wingless dragons who demanded tribute from the local tribes.
 

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