Interesting Opinion Piece

#2
#2
Good read. It is articles like that, that make me feel unsatisfied knowing I'll probably vote for the old man.
 
#3
#3
As someone who studies and teaches business it certainly struck a chord with me. People love to trash business, corporations, consumption, etc. even though these things are woven into the very fabric of this country.
 
#4
#4
Personally, I am not a big fan of over indulgence or materialism. However, I don't like politicians telling the populus how they need to behave.
 
#5
#5
volinbham said:
As someone who studies and teaches business it certainly struck a chord with me. People love to trash business, corporations, consumption, etc. even though these things are woven into the very fabric of this country.
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There's always middle ground. Here, it's somewhere between outright selfishness and communism. Pursuing happiness at the expense of everything else is not virtuous. Neither is denying others' freedoms.

Business certainly is essential to this country. I can't imagine either McCain or Obama would discourage entrepreneurship. But I also believe business should exist to fulfill a need or make things better, not simply to expand an individual's "happiness" (net worth). I'd say there's evidence that more people are starting to agree.

I would hope that when people trash business, corporations, consumption, etc., they're trashing specific behavior -- most of the time related to outright selfishness -- rather than the business itself. Being a corporation isn't bad or good. The behavior of a corporation is bad or good.
 
#6
#6
But I also believe business should exist to fulfill a need or make things better, not simply to expand an individual's "happiness" (net worth).
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Why is the latter wrong? Presumably they will only be successful if they are fulfilling a need.

Further, who would make this determination?
 
#7
#7
allvol123 said:
Personally, I am not a big fan of over indulgence or materialism. However, I don't like politicians telling the populus how they need to behave.
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How about this?

"The unemployment rate has remained low, at 4.5 percent. A recent report on retail sales shows a strong beginning to the holiday shopping season across the country -- and I encourage you all to go shopping more."

Press Conference by the President
 
#9
#9
TennNC said:
How about this?

"The unemployment rate has remained low, at 4.5 percent. A recent report on retail sales shows a strong beginning to the holiday shopping season across the country -- and I encourage you all to go shopping more."

Press Conference by the President
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How about it? I don't care for it whether Bush's name is attached to it or Obama. I tend to think Obama will certainly push his beliefs on how capitalism should function if elected. Do you not?
 
#10
#10
volinbham said:
Why is the latter wrong? Presumably they will only be successful if they are fulfilling a need.

Further, who would make this determination?
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If the only goal is to make money, it encourages behavior that infringes on others' rights to pursue happiness. Example: covering up the effects of smoking cigarettes helped the profits of cigarette manufacturers while risking the health of its customers.

Everyone who has a say should play a part in making this determination, chiefly those who start and operate the business, those who are customers and prospects, and those who are smart enough to understand the impact of one's business on society at large. Ultimately the best way to do this is an informed consumer who can determine which businesses to support.
 
#14
#14
If I had to pick between the two:
1. Tells me to go spend money
2. The other takes my spending money to redistribute

I will take 1 every time.
 
#16
#16
Here's an extended quote from Obama's speech:

"You can take your diploma, walk off this stage, and chase only after the big house and the nice suits and all the other things that our money culture says you should by. You can choose to narrow your concerns and live your life in a way that tries to keep your story separate from America’s.

But I hope you don’t. Not because you have an obligation to those who are less fortunate, though you do have that obligation. Not because you have a debt to all those who helped you get here, though you do have that debt.

It’s because you have an obligation to yourself. Because our individual salvation depends on collective salvation. Because thinking only about yourself, fulfilling your immediate wants and needs, betrays a poverty of ambition. Because it’s only when you hitch your wagon to something larger than yourself that you realize your true potential and discover the role you’ll play in writing the next great chapter in America’s story."

Sounds a whole lot like "Ask not what your country can do for you..." -- no?

Reading this, I think Mr. Boaz's assessment is a bit myopic. Omitting military service was an error. But in regards to the people who built this country, Obama gave credit to "all those who helped you get there." I also think the people who built this country had something in mind other than simply the size of their own bank accounts. I think they cared about the future of the country and might even agree with Obama's words.
 
#17
#17
TennNC, to be honest, I don't see that Obama can say anything that you feel is worthy of criticism. YES, omitting the military was an error, or perhaps it wasn't. Perhaps it is just his natural thought process. He also seems to be taking the stance that the people he is talking to haven't already or don't plan on helping those less fortunate. Who are those people? I don't kow them. Most people I know spend time helping someone else.
 
#18
#18
allvol123 said:
TennNC, to be honest, I don't see that Obama can say anything that you feel is worthy of criticism.
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Well, I wish you'd been this explicit earlier so I could dispel this thought. Here are a few criticisms, for starters:

-- acting like he's "one of them" (speaking to coal miners, inner city workers, etc.) when in fact his experience is so obviously different than 99.99999999% of anyone's in the world. Actually, his unique experience makes me more confident in his ability to leada -- he ain't spoon-fed, but he also didn't grow up in poverty, and he should be honest and embrace that.

-- pandering to farmers/agri-business on much of the bio-fuel issue. I think it's bogus to use farmland to make ethanol instead of food, and I wish he'd say the same.

-- omitting military service from this and other speeches - to me, his stance on the war from the beginning is THE reason I started paying attention to him, and IMO one way that shows he's absolutely pro-troops. He needs to embrace the troops more and the service they provide and promise them he'll only send them to fight when our freedoms truly are threatened.

I can give you more examples as they occur, but since this board seems to have more anti-Obama than pro-Obama folks, my instinct to balance the discussion usually has me defending his remarks rather than criticizing them.

Has he said anything you feel is not worthy of criticism?
 
#19
#19
:clapping:Rock on. I just wanted to hear you criticize him.

Has he said anything not worthy of criticism? Hmmm...not sure if I have heard it. On a personal level I can agree with him on some things. Like the encouraging young people to get involved and not just spend their lives chasing the mighty dollar and materialism. However, I have said I am not comfortable with his delivery of this message combined with the position he is running for.
 
#20
#20
TennNC said:
I can give you more examples as they occur, but since this board seems to have more anti-Obama than pro-Obama folks, my instinct to balance the discussion usually has me defending his remarks rather than criticizing them.

Has he said anything you feel is not worthy of criticism?
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Ain't that the truth. I'll be interested to see his response. I know of a few people on here that couldn't answer it because they would never admit to liking something about Obama. What little I have seen from allvol, I don't think he is one of them.
 
#21
#21
Because our individual salvation depends on collective salvation.
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In other words, the "collective" should come before the individual.

Classic marxism.

Another thing to consider regarding capitalism, raising the minimum wage will not hurt a company like WalMart, but it will hurt a small business that's just starting up.

Obama can try to hide his Marxism in flowery rhetoric, but I don't see any way in which his economic policies will help the economy.
 
#22
#22
VolzRChamps said:
Ain't that the truth. I'll be interested to see his response. I know of a few people on here that couldn't answer it because they would never admit to liking something about Obama. What little I have seen from allvol, I don't think he is one of them.
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Allvol beat you to it - and I don't think he's like that either.

But we should be careful - we don't want to get into a "my candidate can beat up your candidate" debate. That helps nobody.

Politicians are politicians, and I think most on here feel that way. Obama's no different than McCain or Bush in that he's imperfect and is power hungry and has a big ego. -- that's just part of it.

We all should argue more about people's "brands" rather than the individuals themselves. And I bet that when we all open our minds, there's more about each candidate's brands that we like than dislike.
 
#23
#23
TennNC said:
Allvol beat you to it - and I don't think he's like that either.

But we should be careful - we don't want to get into a "my candidate can beat up your candidate" debate. That helps nobody.

Politicians are politicians, and I think most on here feel that way. Obama's no different than McCain or Bush in that he's imperfect and is power hungry and has a big ego. -- that's just part of it.

We all should argue more about people's "brands" rather than the individuals themselves. And I bet that when we all open our minds, there's more about each candidate's brands that we like than dislike.
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Very Very well said. Obama isn't "my candidate" like he is yours yet, but my mind is open to him, McCain and any other viable choice that may come along. I defend what I see as unfair attacks by the far right and far left because I consider myself more in the middle. The funny thing is, I lean and have always leaned Republican Conservative, however there are people here that have me painted into a box because I have called them on thier bias behaviors.

In a perfect world for me, we would eliminate Republicans, Independants and Democrats and run as "Americans".
 
#24
#24
TennNC said:
Here's an extended quote from Obama's speech:

"You can take your diploma, walk off this stage, and chase only after the big house and the nice suits and all the other things that our money culture says you should by. You can choose to narrow your concerns and live your life in a way that tries to keep your story separate from America’s.

But I hope you don’t. Not because you have an obligation to those who are less fortunate, though you do have that obligation. Not because you have a debt to all those who helped you get here, though you do have that debt.

It’s because you have an obligation to yourself. Because our individual salvation depends on collective salvation. Because thinking only about yourself, fulfilling your immediate wants and needs, betrays a poverty of ambition. Because it’s only when you hitch your wagon to something larger than yourself that you realize your true potential and discover the role you’ll play in writing the next great chapter in America’s story."

Sounds a whole lot like "Ask not what your country can do for you..." -- no?

Reading this, I think Mr. Boaz's assessment is a bit myopic. Omitting military service was an error. But in regards to the people who built this country, Obama gave credit to "all those who helped you get there." I also think the people who built this country had something in mind other than simply the size of their own bank accounts. I think they cared about the future of the country and might even agree with Obama's words.
Click to expand...

I interpret Mr. Boaz's point to be that both Obama and McCain are suggesting value to individuals is primarily derived by how much value they provide to the collective. Further, pursuit of individual goals without consideration to how they help the collective is morally inferior and damaging to both self and collective.

An alternative viewpoint would be that pursuit of individual goals can and frequently does benefit the collective. His history lesson is meant as evidence of this latter point.
 
#25
#25
TennNC said:
If the only goal is to make money, it encourages behavior that infringes on others' rights to pursue happiness. Example: covering up the effects of smoking cigarettes helped the profits of cigarette manufacturers while risking the health of its customers.
Click to expand...

So few have this narrowly defined goal of simply making money.

Let's take Exxon. This company is routinely blasted, investigated and accused of unadulterated greed. Is the goal of Exxon only to make money? Certainly not. Exxon provides thousands of jobs directly and thousands more through it's impact on the economy (e.g. suppliers). Exxon's stock value provides returns to hundreds of thousands (millions) of pensioners whose 401k funds are owners of the company.

In other words, corporations and their pursuit of the almighty dollar has a significantly positive impact on the collective.
 
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