It's the off-season now, let's talk Martínez and the secondary

[KnoxRealtorVOL]

This isn't a "Fahhr Martinez" thread by any means. I don't want to support making a man upend his family when none of us see the full picture. I trust Heup and his decisions about his own staff, and who knows what's going on behind the scenes with the secondary. But we can all agree the secondary played really bad for most of the year, save for a few games when they were nothing short of stellar.

I want us to approach this from a football knowledge standpoint. So here's what I see, and I want to know other folks' take on it:

-It doesn't seem to me like the secondary is coached to tackle very well. They seem to not wrap up, their priority ALWAYS seems to be to strip the ball instead of just wrapping up and stopping further gains. It burns them, and they never seem to strip the ball anyways.

-They just seem to play soft coverage. Like rarely do I observe our guys just absolutely smothering a receiver. Maybe that's speed/talent, or maybe that's on Tim Banks, but that's what I see.

-They are absolutely not coached to turn and look for the ball, or if they are coached to do it, they don't. This is not disputable. They don't turn and look for the ball, hence the frequent PI's.

-During the South Carolina game I saw something that really bothered me. They ran a toss sweep, and our DB (I think it was Walker) had an open look at the runner. Instead of going at the ball carrier, he ran straight towards the blocking receiver. I mean like, changed direction to go attack the blocker. Maybe he's supposed to do that, I don't know, but it sure made for an easy first down for SC.

I would love to say "We need portal help", but a ton of our current players in the secondary are transfers.

Does anyone else see anything different? Or could give some insight here?

 

[Berry4Heisman14]

This isn't a "Fahhr Martinez" thread by any means. I don't want to support making a man upend his family when none of us see the full picture. I trust Heup and his decisions about his own staff, and who knows what's going on behind the scenes with the secondary. But we can all agree the secondary played really bad for most of the year, save for a few games when they were nothing short of stellar.

I want us to approach this from a football knowledge standpoint. So here's what I see, and I want to know other folks' take on it:

-It doesn't seem to me like the secondary is coached to tackle very well. They seem to not wrap up, their priority ALWAYS seems to be to strip the ball instead of just wrapping up and stopping further gains. It burns them, and they never seem to strip the ball anyways.

-They just seem to play soft coverage. Like rarely do I observe our guys just absolutely smothering a receiver. Maybe that's speed/talent, or maybe that's on Tim Banks, but that's what I see.

-They are absolutely not coached to turn and look for the ball, or if they are coached to do it, they don't. This is not disputable. They don't turn and look for the ball, hence the frequent PI's.

-During the South Carolina game I saw something that really bothered me. They ran a toss sweep, and our DB (I think it was Walker) had an open look at the runner. Instead of going at the ball carrier, he ran straight towards the blocking receiver. I mean like, changed direction to go attack the blocker. Maybe he's supposed to do that, I don't know, but it sure made for an easy first down for SC.

I would love to say "We need portal help", but a ton of our current players in the secondary are transfers.

Does anyone else see anything different? Or could give some insight here?

I think giving Tim Banks another chance isn’t a bad idea but I think Martinez needs to go imo

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

It doesn’t seem like they turn their heads around very often. How many DPI calls did we get this year because of failing to turn the head around? They aren’t sound tacklers. They miss quite a bit. They rarely if ever press at the line of scrimmage.

I had a poster tell me that DB is the hardest position to coach. And that may be true. However you mean to tell me teams like Bowling Green, Alron, UTEP, Eastern Michigan and Northern Illinois can coach their DBs better than we can? Hell Northwestern won 1 game, ONE GAME last year yet had a better pass defense than we did.

I get it talent makes a difference. But you want me to believe our DB recruiting has been worse than the teams I just named? Bull****. The fact is Martinez ability to develop is severely lacking.

 

[greenbacknative]

I think it is the "bend but don't break" philosophy...

 

[EZE]

I had a poster tell me that DB is the hardest position to coach.

Cornerback definitely is the hardest position to play and usually has some of the best overall athletes on a team.

I’m of the mindset that we had almost everyone playing out of position back there this season. Yet, outside of really two games, we played pretty well. And had a great season overall as a team.

So, if Heupel brings back the entire staff, including Martínez, I have no problem with it. Continuity can be a good thing, too.

But, as with anything, the entire operation needs to be reevaluated after every season, and this includes the defense as a whole (Banks) and the DBs (Martínez) after next season. There certainly is a lot of room for improvement. And I’d want to see some marked improvement.

 

[strkr]

Knox town vol every thing you stated is on Coach Martinez as db coach. They can all be improved and worked on and I have not seen it. The secondary is our weak link right now on defense and it is Martinez coaching ability. I have read he is a great recruiter but you also have to be able to develop talent. I will also say strategy and anticipation are other things that should be taught and discussed. On two of our interceptions - on the 4th down int our db should of just batted ball down and vols get the ball at Clemson 33yd line and not the 49 yd line. I believe walker had the other int in the endzone and he had the composure to remain in the endzone and vols get the ball at their own 20 yd line not at the five or ten yd line. I hope Josh really looks at this position as I do not feel Willie is doing his job regarding coaching db position.

 

[vol4220]

The one thing that gets me with all teams and players, tackle with your arms and take the person down. Players now think the hit is bigger than the tackle and they don't use their arms, look at the Clemson player that Bru hit early in the game. No arms and all he got was a highlight of him being knocked on his butt.

 

[Ned Ray McWorkher]

Lot of meaningless yards given up in the Orange Bowl. Minimal long passes allowed, with a bunch of forced field goal attempts. And there's much better individual talent on the way. Playing corner is an ability. It is not something that you tell someone how to do. Look at who has high level secondary play in this league and see how they've attained it.
I'm of the opinion that you recruit Cam Sutton's & Eric Berry's, not coach them. Everyone on the team learns the same technique and schemes, and is coached the same way, the naturally gifted kids tend to execute better, perform well and get drafted higher. And after that nice game against Clemson why are we even heading backwards with the armchair coaching? Is this what you've been waiting to worry about?

 

[savannahfan]

This isn't a "Fahhr Martinez" thread by any means. I don't want to support making a man upend his family when none of us see the full picture. I trust Heup and his decisions about his own staff, and who knows what's going on behind the scenes with the secondary. But we can all agree the secondary played really bad for most of the year, save for a few games when they were nothing short of stellar.

I want us to approach this from a football knowledge standpoint. So here's what I see, and I want to know other folks' take on it:

-It doesn't seem to me like the secondary is coached to tackle very well. They seem to not wrap up, their priority ALWAYS seems to be to strip the ball instead of just wrapping up and stopping further gains. It burns them, and they never seem to strip the ball anyways.

-They just seem to play soft coverage. Like rarely do I observe our guys just absolutely smothering a receiver. Maybe that's speed/talent, or maybe that's on Tim Banks, but that's what I see.

-They are absolutely not coached to turn and look for the ball, or if they are coached to do it, they don't. This is not disputable. They don't turn and look for the ball, hence the frequent PI's.

-During the South Carolina game I saw something that really bothered me. They ran a toss sweep, and our DB (I think it was Walker) had an open look at the runner. Instead of going at the ball carrier, he ran straight towards the blocking receiver. I mean like, changed direction to go attack the blocker. Maybe he's supposed to do that, I don't know, but it sure made for an easy first down for SC.

I would love to say "We need portal help", but a ton of our current players in the secondary are transfers.

Does anyone else see anything different? Or could give some insight here?

I stated in a previous post that what I think we need is a "teacher". A feeble attempt to define the difference in a "coach" and a "teacher" on my part. The finer points (the nuts and bolts) of playing a position are not a coaching job to me per say. Coaching is preparing and coaching a plain for a season or game,not teaching the nuts and bolts of a position. Now this coach can do both, but to me his first responsibility is not teaching nuts and bolts, that is for a person solely dedicated to teaching..

 

[LWSVOL]

This isn't a "Fahhr Martinez" thread by any means. I don't want to support making a man upend his family when none of us see the full picture. I trust Heup and his decisions about his own staff, and who knows what's going on behind the scenes with the secondary. But we can all agree the secondary played really bad for most of the year, save for a few games when they were nothing short of stellar.

I want us to approach this from a football knowledge standpoint. So here's what I see, and I want to know other folks' take on it:

-It doesn't seem to me like the secondary is coached to tackle very well. They seem to not wrap up, their priority ALWAYS seems to be to strip the ball instead of just wrapping up and stopping further gains. It burns them, and they never seem to strip the ball anyways.

-They just seem to play soft coverage. Like rarely do I observe our guys just absolutely smothering a receiver. Maybe that's speed/talent, or maybe that's on Tim Banks, but that's what I see.

-They are absolutely not coached to turn and look for the ball, or if they are coached to do it, they don't. This is not disputable. They don't turn and look for the ball, hence the frequent PI's.

-During the South Carolina game I saw something that really bothered me. They ran a toss sweep, and our DB (I think it was Walker) had an open look at the runner. Instead of going at the ball carrier, he ran straight towards the blocking receiver. I mean like, changed direction to go attack the blocker. Maybe he's supposed to do that, I don't know, but it sure made for an easy first down for SC.

I would love to say "We need portal help", but a ton of our current players in the secondary are transfers.

Does anyone else see anything different? Or could give some insight here?

My insight is Martinez coaches the cornerbacks and Tim Banks coaches the safeties. So when addressing CB play, its Martinez group and when addressing safety play that is Banks. Walker is a safety

Just for clarification.

 

[SGMVols]

I think giving Tim Banks another chance isn’t a bad idea but I think Martinez needs to go imo

Nobody is getting fired. Any changes to the staff will be because someone left on their own, like Golesh.

 

[Boone&Crockett]

There is definitely a problem somewhere but I don't think Banks or Heupel is blind to it, I expect it to be far better next year.

 

[KnoxRealtorVOL]

My insight is Martinez coaches the cornerbacks and Tim Banks coaches the safeties. So when addressing CB play, its Martinez group and when addressing safety play that is Banks. Walker is a safety

Just for clarification.

I had no idea this was the case. I thought Martínez coached corners and safeties

 

[EastTNVol6240]

I’m all in on giving banks another year to see how the D looks. But that secondary was atrocious on an epic level. Looked like high school DBs out there not looking for the ball. There has to be accountability.

 

[Dadof2Vols]

Nobody is getting fired. Any changes to the staff will be because someone left on their own, like Golesh.

Prediction here. If CJH is pleased with the direction no one gets fired. If he thinks DB/DC coaches aren’t coaching and teaching what he expects then heads will roll.

We will soon understand where CJH stands on this topic…if not this year certainly after next when they have more of their own players.

 

[TartanTurff]

The experiment with "Torch" Martinez has failed and failed miserably, much like Larry Slade's secondary, the pass coverage skills, techniques and ability is not taight, not understood and remains a wholesale concern for the program in an effort to compete day in and day out with the passing games from top tier teams, the pass interference calls from the Orange Bowl should be the necessary last straw after watching the secondary let other teams back in the games all season long, no lead is safe with this clown coaching and directing a critical component of an SEC football program.

 

[jvol1]

College football is just more offense heavy now. The defense looks fine. The game has changed. Pretty much all games are scoring fiestas these days (for one team at least). It seems to come down to getting a few critical stops more than pitching shutouts.

 

[JRich]

The details (finding the ball, turning your head, speed & anticipation, tackling, penalties) is on the player and his capabilities. UT is not that talented in the secondary right now, and many guys played out of position due to injuries and poor play. Arguably, Hadden is UT’s best man cover guy, but one of the worst tacklers I’ve seen in a long time. Which is likely why he couldn’t see the field at UA. McCollough is abysmal, but saw the field every weekend. Obviously, the talent isn’t there.

Where I see the coaching failures are in the execution aspect of the game. They just couldn’t figure out how to play zone coverage and repeatedly got torched when they were in it.

…but hey, 11 wins, so, it wasn’t that bad. It was enough.

 

[Concept]

To be fair, they weren't locating the ball in the first half, and Clemson floated a bunch of easy break-up or interception balls that ended up big yardage. However, in the second half we were turning to look for the ball and got the stops. The balls we actually intercepted were desperation throws late in the game (and I think one was a fourth down ball we should have just batted down).

 

[CoachClick]

They won’t fire Martinez I’m pretty sure, but they sure as hell need to.

 

[LWSVOL]

Heupel is not firing any coaches. Someone might leave for another job (this is doubtful) but he is not firing anyone.

 

[SGMVols]

College football is just more offense heavy now. The defense looks fine. The game has changed. Pretty much all games are scoring fiestas these days (for one team at least). It seems to come down to getting a few critical stops more than pitching shutouts.

The days of anyone holding teams to 200 yards and 8 points a game like Saban did early on at Bama are over.

 

[rdk4121]

Of our PI calls this year, how many of them were on Hadden? A pretty significant amount. We'll be way better off if he doesn't have to play a ton of snaps for us. Same with Rucker, but he just wasn't really ready to play many snaps this year. I thought Slaughter took a big step in that bowl game, and actually got his head around. Turnage was able to do the same when he was playing.

This is to say, we had a talent issue, possibly mixed with a scheme issue. The cushion we give to receivers is certainly more a scheme thing it would seem. On the talent front, Slaughter was probably our best CB, and has only played like 5 games there. That's a pretty big indictment on most of the other guys there. Having Burrell there probably would've helped. Turnage was also solid, but wasn't even s starter until half way through the year.

At safety, flowers and McCollough were pretty decent, but just really aren't the best athletes back there. Walker gives us a needed length and athleticism boost. To me, he's a surefire starter next year. I know McCollough is back, but I'd love to get Turrentine and Charles some more looks at safety. Charles doesn't need to ever play another snap at CB.

We have 5 secondary recruits coming in next year, and I'm really excited for Gibson and Matthews as I think they can make an impact right away. I don't the secondary is as bad as people want to make it seem. People had trouble running on us, and were often down making them through the ball more often. Plus, we score so quickly, there's just more possessions in our games than normal. We were 66th in passing defense efficiency and 62nd in yards per attempt. While neither are fantastic, they're both middle of the road which is far more indicative of their performance this year. Given the injuries back there, I don't feel like it's a bad showing and one I believe they'll improve upon.

 

[rdk4121]

The days of anyone holding teams to 200 yards and 8 points a game like Saban did early on at Bama are over.

You're exactly right. Even Georgia (who many laud to be one of the greatest defenses ever) had all they could handle from Ohio state. I know Georgia's defense isn't as good as it was last year, but still.

 

[Volfan76]

My insight is Martinez coaches the cornerbacks and Tim Banks coaches the safeties. So when addressing CB play, its Martinez group and when addressing safety play that is Banks. Walker is a safety

Just for clarification.

It seems like when we've been the most successful on D, we've have stormed the opposing offense with stunts, twists and blitzes on almost every play. Seemed like we did very little of that against SC. Have any idea why?