Its true we can't play the "talent card" against Mizzou

[BanditVol]

Oh, so they had a good coach? That explains it!

So, I guess all we need is to make sure that we always play less talented teams with bad coaches who don't have any seniors or juniors on their roster (in addition to all the freshmen and sophomores they were playing). Otherwise, I guess we shouldn't expect anything other than a blowout loss. Sounds reasonable.

I predicted we would lost to Mizzou before we played them. I made other posts saying it was worse than it should have been due to turnovers. I stand by both of those statements.

What I am saying here is what a couple others have also helpfully pointed out..."talent isn't everything" and "recruiting rankings are not always accurate".

We have been ranked ahead of Mizzou in the recruiting rankings...but that isn't everything. So what are the other factors? Time in the system, experience, coaching and motivation. I could add development of talent as well, which was not in my original post.

Bottom line...do you think Missouri is NOT a better team than us? If so, how did they also kick the arse of Uga and Florida, two teams we lost to, and why are they currently ranked 8th in the BCS?

LOL! So yes, Virginia, it would really help to NOT play a team that is better than us! Better than us regardless of the fact that we have recruited better than them on paper.

Does this help? Let me know if you need any more explanations, but I thought all of the above was obvious. Apparently it isn't. Do let me know if you have any more questions or concerns.....

 

[BanditVol]

Most of the recruits from the last 4 years are no longer on the team. Do some more research.

LOL! If "most of the recruits from the last 4 years" were "no longer on the team" then how could we field an 85 player roster? Come on man....

There have only been 3, maybe 4 players quit this year. Other than that the roster is largely intact since Dooley's first year.

I will grant you this...Bray CP and Hunter did leave early and I am sure that alone might drop us a place or two in the recruiting rankings...but not much more than that.

 

[oregonvol]

LOL! My second post didn't say anything about margin of victory...it just says we were not Georgia's "punching bag".

Do you disagree with that? If so, why?

And yes...UGa was a LOSS and that SUCKS! Never said it didn't.

You can't really say "loss is a loss" in the Missouri game and, in doing so, refuse to acknowledge how terribly we played and how embarrassing and inept our performance was, while also talking about how well we played in the loss to Georgia.

I took positives from the Georgia loss too (while still acknowledging that it was a loss and ultimately not anything to be proud of), but by the same token, I look at the Missouri game (a game I didn't expect us to win) and see how we failed to even compete and can see reasons for further criticism in such a pathetic performance, rather than simply dismissing it as "a loss is a loss".

 

[BanditVol]

I think it's funny that just last week Mizzou was over-rated, not as talented as UT, and had UT played Mizzou's schedule UT would be ranked.

Fast forward a week later and somehow they are a legitimate top 10 team, UT isn't as talented, and has no depth.

So only after a team beats UT do they become good?

This is so disingenous. SOME posters were optimistic last week. OTHERS were not. So why not lump them all together?

As for me, I am on record as saying we would need to catch some breaks to beat Mizzou.

But its definitely true that had we played their schedule, likely we are 6-2 going into the MIzzou game instead of 4-4.

But feel free to tell me we can't beat Murray State in place of Oregon. lol:

 

[BanditVol]

You can't really say "loss is a loss" in the Missouri game and, in doing so, refuse to acknowledge how terribly we played and how embarrassing and inept our performance was, while also talking about how well we played in the loss to Georgia.

I took positives from the Georgia loss too (while still acknowledging that it was a loss and ultimately not anything to be proud of), but by the same token, I look at the Missouri game (a game I didn't expect us to win) and see how we failed to even compete and can see reasons for further criticism in such a pathetic performance, rather than simply dismissing it as "a loss is a loss".

Mizzou was a complete embarassment and there is no excuse for the way we played. I do think that Dobbs making 3 turnovers made it worse than it was, but we OBVIOUSLY could have played much better.

I also see a difference between Uga and Mizzou. Uga was a much better effort.

So I really don't know what you are getting at....despite acknowledging that "style points" matter, a loss IS still a loss.

Really puzzled what your problem is...but if it helps, my intent in saying "a loss is a loss' is not so much a statement of philosophy as an attempt to move on and focus on the upcoming Auburn game...which is far more important now than whatever happened Saturday.

Look at it this way...the team stunk it up Saturday but now have a chance at redemption. That's what I am looking forward to.

Snap and clear!

 

[oldsmokey67]

Pinkel is a good coach. he has been there for what..12 seasons? You don't get to hang around for 12 seasons without being a good coach.

you are so right.and pinkel does a great job of coaching up his players.their staff throws stars out the window for the most part in recruiting.they develope their 2-3* players.but they do have some 4* and a 5*player.

 

[oregonvol]

Mizzou was a complete embarassment and there is no excuse for the way we played. I do think that Dobbs making 3 turnovers made it worse than it was, but we OBVIOUSLY could have played much better.

I also see a difference between Uga and Mizzou. Uga was a much better effort.

So I really don't know what you are getting at....despite acknowledging that "style points" matter, a loss IS still a loss.

Really puzzled what your problem is...but if it helps, my intent in saying "a loss is a loss' is not so much a statement of philosophy as an attempt to move on and focus on the upcoming Auburn game...which is far more important now than whatever happened Saturday.

Look at it this way...the team stunk it up Saturday but now have a chance at redemption. That's what I am looking forward to.

Snap and clear!

So we do care about the margin, right? That's all I was getting at: If you can take positives away from Georgia, then you have to also acknowledge that Missouri was an utter embarrassing failure on all levels. After your clarification, I don't think we're really all that opposed on this point, but I hope you can see where I would have thought so from your initial post.

 

[orangeluvr]

Mizzou is in the rear view. Find a way to beat the barners.

 

[ChattanoogaVols]

This is so disingenous. SOME posters were optimistic last week. OTHERS were not. So why not lump them all together?

As for me, I am on record as saying we would need to catch some breaks to beat Mizzou.

But its definitely true that had we played their schedule, likely we are 6-2 going into the MIzzou game instead of 4-4.

But feel free to tell me we can't beat Murray State in place of Oregon. lol:

I agree. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like there was a fairly even split of people on each side before the Mizzou game, at least from what I remember. I was saying basically the same thing you were, and there were others who thought pretty much the exact opposite.

 

[terrypedigo]

We looked like a fish out of water in Columbia..

Freshman QB, I have learned one thing over the last 2 years the way football is changing you got to have a QB that can play look at TEXAS AM without Johnny football what a 7 and 5 or 6 and 6 in the old days the running game was where it is just line up and run the ball down the other teams throat, doesn't work that way anymore.

 

[K-town Vol Fan]

LOL! If "most of the recruits from the last 4 years" were "no longer on the team" then how could we field an 85 player roster? Come on man....

There have only been 3, maybe 4 players quit this year. Other than that the roster is largely intact since Dooley's first year.

I will grant you this...Bray CP and Hunter did leave early and I am sure that alone might drop us a place or two in the recruiting rankings...but not much more than that.

Wrong. Go look at the 09 and 10 class.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

I think it's funny that just last week Mizzou was over-rated, not as talented as UT, and had UT played Mizzou's schedule UT would be ranked.

Fast forward a week later and somehow they are a legitimate top 10 team, UT isn't as talented, and has no depth.

So only after a team beats UT do they become good?

This.

And many turn around and do the same thing to Auburn. So I'm guessing should Auburn win Saturday, they'll go from a an overrated team that played a pathetic schedule to a team that will beat Alabama in a few weeks.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

This is so disingenous. SOME posters were optimistic last week. OTHERS were not. So why not lump them all together?

As for me, I am on record as saying we would need to catch some breaks to beat Mizzou.

But its definitely true that had we played their schedule, likely we are 6-2 going into the MIzzou game instead of 4-4.

But feel free to tell me we can't beat Murray State in place of Oregon. lol:

If by "some" you mean the majority of the people posting here that week, then I agree.

Anyone paying attention last week saw the overwhelming vibe of this place was that we would beat Missouri.

 

[BanditVol]

Wrong. Go look at the 09 and 10 class.

I agree about the 2009 class...Kiffin's class. I make this point elsewhre. Bryce Brown and Nukeese Richardson, the poster children for turnover caused by Kiffin....among others, not to mention the old Fulmer players Kiff ran off. As I state elsewhere, we had only 65 or slightly more players on roster at the start of Dooley's career.

Newsflash! The 2009 class IS NOT INCLUDED in the last four years.

2010, 2011, 2012, 2013...that adds up to four.

My statement is based on the last four years.

As for 2010, Dooley's first year, here are the starters still around from that class:

Corey Miller, Jaques Smith, Rajion Neal, Michael Palardy, James Stone, Dontavious Sapp, Zack Fulton, Juwuan James,

Big names missing....Bray, Hunter, Rogers, Ryvera....all of whom went pro early (although Da Rick did it from T Tech). That's four of the 13 missing.

From everything I have always read, typically half a class will be gone by their senior year. Watch how many seniors are introduced at halftime in the last home game every year and weed out the walk ons. Having 13-14 left is very typical.

And of the 9 others that left, one was Matt Simms, who was Juco anyway (and is playing in the NFL also...well on roster lol...whudathunkit). Of the eight remaining, about half were lower rated players who likely saw the writing on the wall and moved on. Four four stars are gone...two DBs, one WR and one DT, all of which we could use, but losing four "good" players out of a class for reasons other than going pro or being JUCO is not bad IMO.

Does this help?

 

[BanditVol]

If by "some" you mean the majority of the people posting here that week, then I agree.

Anyone paying attention last week saw the overwhelming vibe of this place was that we would beat Missouri.

I didn't see it that way...I did see lots of optimisim, but many qualified that they had their "orange colored glasses on", myself included.

There is nothing wrong with being optimistic....in sports if a team doesn't think it can win it usually won't. Faith is huge in life and sports.

Fans can help set up a postive vibe that the team can feed on....don't want to overstate that, it's a relatively minor thing, but every little bit helps IMO.

 

[BanditVol]

This.

And many turn around and do the same thing to Auburn. So I'm guessing should Auburn win Saturday, they'll go from a an overrated team that played a pathetic schedule to a team that will beat Alabama in a few weeks.

I see Auburn as just as tough a game as Mizzou, but I expect to do better because we have been night and day in road vs home this year. Of course, we did play 3 top ten teams on the road, including 1 and 2, and that has something to do with it also.

I will further state that we can keep it reasonably close just by not turning the ball over more than them.

And if they turn it over more than us, we have a great chance of winning, and I hope we do.

One other thing that will help is that Murphy is apparently nurshing a shoulder injury and may not be 100% running the ball...and he accounts for over half their yards rushing. I am not counting on that though.

 

[GLDunlap]

I see Auburn as just as tough a game as Mizzou, but I expect to do better because we have been night and day in road vs home this year. Of course, we did play 3 top ten teams on the road, including 1 and 2, and that has something to do with it also.

I will further state that we can keep it reasonably close just by not turning the ball over more than them.

And if they turn it over more than us, we have a great chance of winning, and I hope we do.

One other thing that will help is that Murphy is apparently nurshing a shoulder injury and may not be 100% running the ball...and he accounts for over half their yards rushing. I am not counting on that though.

You mean Marshall? He has 520 yards rushing and as a team they have over 2700 yards rushing. Auburn's offense is nasty with or without Marshall running.

 

[KBVol]

LOL! If "most of the recruits from the last 4 years" were "no longer on the team" then how could we field an 85 player roster? Come on man....

There have only been 3, maybe 4 players quit this year. Other than that the roster is largely intact since Dooley's first year.

I will grant you this...Bray CP and Hunter did leave early and I am sure that alone might drop us a place or two in the recruiting rankings...but not much more than that.

Since Dooley's 1st recruiting class in 2010, 30-35 players left the program one way or the other not including graduation. Attrition. Hence, our taking 10 walkons (of 70 traveling squad) on the road to Oregon, Florida, Bama.

 

[Burger]

We have in fact recruited better than them the last four years on average.

But quick...someone tell Uga and Florida that, because they both have even more talent than us! (and for the slower types on here, Mizzou beat them both).

Could it be that (a) Pinkel is a good coach, (b) playing a lot of seniors and juniors that have (c) been in his system for a number of years and (d) have a lot to play for right now?

Hmmm....can't win em all. A loss is a loss, who cares about the margin.

Enough about Mizzou....bring on Auburn!

Pinkel is a very good football coach. He built Mizzou from the floor up. B,c, and D are also true unfortunately.

 

[sjt18]

We have in fact recruited better than them the last four years on average.

True.

But quick...someone tell Uga and Florida that, because they both have even more talent than us! (and for the slower types on here, Mizzou beat them both).

True. It is also true that both teams were missing key players. It is further true that at least some of us are less bothered by the loss than the beatdown and physical domination. UT has upperclassmen with talent on the OL and in the D front 7. If the secondary had caused the loss... I wouldn't like the loss but could live with them isolating Washington on Toney and having an absolute field day. I am OK with Dobbs making the kinds of mistakes you'd expect in that situation... and the receivers too. I sure would have liked to have seen them not make mistakes... and maybe some points. But their failures are completely understandable and really not greatly within the ability of the coaches to improve right away.

What really burns alot of us up is the underutilization of the guys with experience, development, and talent. THOSE are the guys that MU with less talent ran over.

Could it be that (a) Pinkel is a good coach,

Sure could. Many of us recognize that he outcoached UT last Saturday.

(b) playing a lot of seniors and juniors that have

Someone :whistling: said before this game that MU didn't have elite talent but did have a very good system. Systems however pretty much do the expected... and UT's staff could not beat it.

(c) been in his system for a number of years and

That's an advantage. Not a 340 yd rushing advantage but certainly enough to be the margin of victory... again, not a 28 pt victory.

(d) have a lot to play for right now?

UT didn't have a lot to play for? Knocking off a top 10 team to bring respect back to the program isn't "enough"?

Hmmm....can't win em all. A loss is a loss, who cares about the margin.

LOL. You would care if UT had won 31-3 and dominated MU. Margin matters because it reflects competitiveness. That game wasn't competitive and it sure looked like at least some of UT's upperclassmen quit.

Enough about Mizzou....bring on Auburn!

If the team and staff perform... I'll praise them like before. Hopefully they will.


BTW, lost in all of this is that I really, REALLY like Dobbs potential and what he did in spite of the mistakes. He is a playmaker in the making.

HOWEVER the coach is who is responsible for his development... has done a great job with him.

 

[sjt18]

Pinkel is a very good football coach. He built Mizzou from the floor up. B,c, and D are also true unfortunately.

Pinkel and MU go through cycles. If his recruiting does not improve, he will cycle down next year after losing Franklin, Britt, Franklin, Lucas, Washington, Sam, Wilson, Bonner, Gaines, Ponder, and White.

He may somehow break that cycle... but he's been doing it in the Big 12 that way pretty much the whole time he's been around.

He's also remarkably dodged a mass of injuries at the wrong time.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Pinkel is a good coach. he has been there for what..12 seasons? You don't get to hang around for 12 seasons without being a good coach.

I don't know about that, I mean according to a lot of people here on VN, Fulmer sucked and he was around for longer than that.

 

[sjt18]

Pinkel is a good coach. he has been there for what..12 seasons? You don't get to hang around for 12 seasons without being a good coach.

That's not necessarily true. Mizzou's supporters and fans aren't like alot of other SEC fanbases. They ARE satisfied with a winner now and again and don't get too riled up if they have some losers. He's had 4 losing seasons in those 12 years.

He does more with less but has down years as he develops those lesser talent guys.

His results greatly depend on the quality of his QB. More so than most programs.


He is a good coach... but the culture here concerning athletics is not like it is in the southeast.

 

[GLDunlap]

Wrong. Go look at the 09 and 10 class.

We've have lost 16-17 players just off the 2011 and 2012 classes and most of them were 4 star recruits. The entire 2009 class which would be rs seniors was wiped out. We are missing 14 players from the 2010 class. Everyone has attrition but were talking about at least 50-55 players. Most have been replaced but the replacements are mostly inexperienced or walk ons.

 

[Boca Vol]

We've have lost 16-17 players just off the 2011 and 2012 classes and most of them were 4 star recruits. The entire 2009 class which would be rs seniors was wiped out. We are missing 14 players from the 2010 class. Everyone has attrition but were talking about at least 50-55 players. Most have been replaced but the replacements are mostly inexperienced or walk ons.

How many players red-shirted in 2009?