Johnson in same company as Petty/Earnhardt?

#1
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SyxxSynse

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#1
I thought this would be a good discussion.

If Jimmie Johnson wins his fifth Cup Series title this year, should people begin to put his name in with the likes of Richard Petty and Dale Earnhardt in the argument as to who is the best and most successful driver in NASCAR history?
 
#2
#2
TheSyxxSynse said:
I thought this would be a good discussion.

If Jimmie Johnson wins his fifth Cup Series title this year, should people begin to put his name in with the likes of Richard Petty and Dale Earnhardt in the argument as to who is the best and most successful driver in NASCAR history?
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Petty=7 Championships
Earnhardt=7 Championships
Johnson=5 Championships (IF he wins)

7>5

Any other questions?
 
#3
#3
I guess I should have been more specific. I'm talking about comparing things like driver skill, difficulty to win in each drivers era, and other variables. Not just solely on the number of championships each has won.
 
#4
#4
TheSyxxSynse said:
I guess I should have been more specific. I'm talking about comparing things like driver skill, difficulty to win in each drivers era, and other variables. Not just solely on the number of championships each has won.
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No not necessary, I still say I need to see how he does in the long haul of 15-20 years. His winning four in a row and four in a relative short time puts him in an elite class, but I'm not quite ready to elevate him to the level of Petty & Earnhardt, or Gordon yet.
 
#6
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rbroyles said:
No not necessary, I still say I need to see how he does in the long haul of 15-20 years. His winning four in a row and four in a relative short time puts him in an elite class, but I'm not quite ready to elevate him to the level of Petty & Earnhardt, or Gordon yet.
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I'm not either. But you know if he should win a fifth title (either this year or whenever) people will at least begin to mention his name alongside the two greatest.
 
#7
#7
Well there are probably people who still think UT Football is doing ok. I wouldn't put Johnson up that high yet even with a fifth. I would agree he is one of the top 10 drivers if he does win a fifth. He obviously is way above average talent wise.
 
#8
#8
hard to compare eras. how many championships would Johnson have under the old system?
 
#9
#9
VOLNBAMA said:
hard to compare eras. how many championships would Johnson have under the old system?
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Two.

Under the old system in Johnson's championship seasons:

2006: Johnson wins title by 4 points over Matt Kenseth
2007: Johnson finishes 2nd, -353 points behind Jeff Gordon
2008: Johnson finishes 2nd, -16 points behind Carl Edwards
2009: Johnson wins title by 66 points over Jeff Gordon

The Chase is the main reason why I can't put him in the same class as Petty and Earnhardt. I believe to be champion, a driver needs to be the most consistent ALL year long. Johnson will win a few races in the regular season, but will cruise alot of the way, just to make sure he makes The Chase. When the final ten races start, he turns it on. Granted, all the other drivers have to find a way to beat him in those ten races, but doing just enough to "make the playoffs" is not how it should be done.
 
#10
#10
Yeah, but if you change the system the 48 team would still figure out how to exploit any advantage to the fullest. It's not as simple as saying, "well the Chase is the only reason he's won 4 in a row." They set their objectives toward winning the championship. They hit those objectives. Just because you move the mark doesn't mean that preparation and that focus doesn't stay the same.



They're a damn good race team beating a ton of other damn good race teams.
 
#13
#13
TheSyxxSynse said:
Two.

Under the old system in Johnson's championship seasons:

2006: Johnson wins title by 4 points over Matt Kenseth
2007: Johnson finishes 2nd, -353 points behind Jeff Gordon
2008: Johnson finishes 2nd, -16 points behind Carl Edwards
2009: Johnson wins title by 66 points over Jeff Gordon

The Chase is the main reason why I can't put him in the same class as Petty and Earnhardt. I believe to be champion, a driver needs to be the most consistent ALL year long. Johnson will win a few races in the regular season, but will cruise alot of the way, just to make sure he makes The Chase. When the final ten races start, he turns it on. Granted, all the other drivers have to find a way to beat him in those ten races, but doing just enough to "make the playoffs" is not how it should be done.
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I think you can only compare them against their own competition. There is no way of knowing how Johnson's team would have done given a different format. They may have had more points leading into the last 10 races if the chase didn't exist.
 
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#14
#14
ptclaus98 said:
I can go with that, but you could say that for people all around motorsport in this day and age.
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I agree but Johnson doesn't come across as the "best driver" out there. His team is the best team though.

Compare that with Tony Stewart who may be perceived as a better driver but the driver/team combo isn't as potent.

Johnson is a better driver than he's perceived to be IMHO.
 
#15
#15
volinbham said:
I agree but Johnson doesn't come across as the "best driver" out there. His team is the best team though.

Compare that with Tony Stewart who may be perceived as a better driver but the driver/team combo isn't as potent.

Johnson is a better driver than he's perceived to be IMHO.
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Now that you put it like that I must agree you have a solid point. Looking back at some of his underwhelming performances you can clearly argue it was driver error most times.
 
#17
#17
Johnson isn't flashy or flamboyant like Busch, not as charismatic as Stewart or anybody for that matter. He just wins, and the 48 team is the best I've seen at race day adjustments and strategy. How many times do they fall deep in the pack only to end up in the top 3 or 5, or win? Yes the team has to be good, but Johnson is part of the team, and the driver has to have the ability to take the car from 20+ position to the front. I get tired of them winning too, but to try to ignore his ability because you don't like him is absurd.

To try to compare him to Petty and Earnhardt is difficult as someone said. The cars were different, competition was less for the most part. If you were to put him back in the time of these two, I wager Johnson would win his share. As today it would depend on how good is the equipment. I doubt if anyone wins four Champs in a row for a long time, and five would take probably twice as long. He is a future HOF driver if he quit today.
 
#18
#18
To sort of go along with what rbroyles is saying, I find it's quite difficult to compare drivers across eras like Petty, Earnhardt, and Johnson. The way I look at it is who was 'the man' so to say in their time. Petty had his run (and I truly believe you have to include Pearson in this conversation, but we'll save that for another day since the subject was Johnson vs. Petty & Earnhardt), Earnhardt had his, and now Johnson is having his.

So, in that sense, I would say Johnson is in Petty/Earnhardt territory.
 
#20
#20
The thing about Johnson is that he is only in his 9th full season (2002-2010). He is nearly averaging 1 championship for every 2 years he races. Dale Sr. won rookie of the year in 1979 so it would be like comparing Dale's numbers from 79 to 87. In Dale's first 9 years he had 31 wins and 3 championships. Jimmie currently has 53 wins and 4 championships. I agree they are in different eras and were both the best against their peers so it is hard to compare.


As far as Richard Petty, it is really hard to compare him to current drivers because he raced as many as 61 times a year as he did in 1964. They didn't cut back the schedule until 1972 and between 1960 and 1972, Petty had many seasons where he raced between 40 and 60 races in a season. Petty should be compared with guys like Pearson as Tidwell said.

Johnson may quit racing tomorrow for all I know or he may race another 10 years and win 3 or 4 more championships. It will be interesting to see what Jimmie's final stats will be.
 
#21
#21
I don't mean to take away from Johnson and the 48 teams abilities. Whatever they have won they have earned. And after reading some of these posts, my opinion has changed in the fact that I do believe that the team would find a way to win no matter what the championship rules were. The combination of Hendrick/Knaus/Johnson is that good. But unfortunately due to The Chase, I guess we can never accurately compare championship to championship with other drivers.
 
#22
#22
I agree that it's hard to compare drivers from different eras, but I would put Johnson up there right now. He's won 4 in a row which nobody else has ever done. If he wins it again, which I think he will, it'll be hard to think of anymore reasons for people to exclude him from the elite class.
 
#23
#23
615 Vol said:
As far as Richard Petty, it is really hard to compare him to current drivers because he raced as many as 61 times a year as he did in 1964. They didn't cut back the schedule until 1972 and between 1960 and 1972, Petty had many seasons where he raced between 40 and 60 races in a season. Petty should be compared with guys like Pearson as Tidwell said.

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Many of Petty's wins came on small bull rings such as Hickory, S. Boston, Myrtle Beach, Kingsport, TN (yes Petty won a race there, I was there.), Greeneville-Pickens, Asheville-Weaverville, Bowman-Gray where many of the guys didn't enter. Back then the Champ. wasn't as meaningful, and several top teams didn't pursue it. One prime example was the Wood Brothers. It was not until the winner's circle bonus was enacted that most teams made all the races.

When you consider this, Earnhardt and Johnson (and Gordon) really compare more favorably to Petty. I agree with tidwell that Pearson deserves inclusion in any discusion about top drivers. He won more super speedway races than anyone has, and raced a more limited schedule with the Wood Brothers. I felt he should have been inducted into the HOF ahead of some others. In head to head races, Pearson won more times than Petty, and is second in all time wins.
 
#24
#24
I would have included Pearson and Gordon in the discussion, but I was going on number of championships. Pearson should be a lock in the next round of HOF inductees. He should have been in the first group. And of course Gordon will be in the HOF too.
 
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#25
#25
TheSyxxSynse said:
I would have included Pearson and Gordon in the discussion, but I was going on number of championships. Pearson should be a lock in the next round of HOF inductees. He should have been in the first group. And of course Gordon will be in the HOF too.
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In his total career, Pearson only raced full time for four seasons. Imagine how many races he would have won if he ran a full schedule every year. When they were running up to 60 races a year, at about 20-25 of them his only competition would be Petty.

One thing I didn't mention before is that the point system back then was based on the length of the race, so these minor tracks where the races were usually 100 miles paid fewer points as well as money. I remember in the early '60s when my dad had his Sportsman (NNS) car, seeing the "big announcement" in the weekly NASCAR newsletter that the minimum winner's payout was going to be $1000 for the GN division (Cup).
 
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