Just Plain Wrong

[therealUT]

Way to go LTC Zellmer, dismiss an Arabic linguist for no earthly reason. I mean, it is not like we really need Arabic linguists during this war...

A decorated sergeant and Arabic language specialist was dismissed from the U.S. Army under the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, though he says he never told his superiors he was gay and his accuser was never identified.

An eight-month Army investigation culminated in Copas' honorable discharge on Jan. 30 - less than four years after he enlisted, he said, out of a post-Sept. 11 sense of duty to his country.

But the GAO also noted that nearly 800 dismissed gay or lesbian service members had critical abilities, including 300 with important language skills. Fifty-five were proficient in Arabic, including Copas, a graduate of the Defense Language Institute in California.

While investigators were never able to determine who the accuser was, "in the end, the nature and the volume of the evidence and Sgt. Copas's own sworn statement led me to discharge him," Zellmer said.

The accuser, who signed his e-mails "John Smith" or "ftbraggman," pressed Copas' superiors to take action against him or "I will inform your entire battalion of the information that I gave you."

Complete Article

Nothing like a Battalion Commander being pushed around by some joe who apparently has an agenda against Copas.

 

[smoke_em06]

Way to go LTC Zellmer, dismiss an Arabic linguist for no earthly reason. I mean, it is not like we really need Arabic linguists during this war...
Nothing like a Battalion Commander being pushed around by some joe who apparently has an agenda against Copas.

So this person was leaking top secret information? If that is the case then they should have been discharged.

 

[orange+white=heaven]

Just a side note Real, I haven't really seen much that says arabic language classes have seen a dramatic increase at colleges. If I was in school and had language skills, that would seem a no brainer way to make a living....

 

[hatvol96]

This further illustrates how the impractical nature of the current policy. It should be an "either or" proposition. You either allow gays in the miltary or you don't. That draws a line and eliminates the vague, inconsistent enforcement and implementation of the laughable system currently in place.

 

[utvolpj]

So this person was leaking top secret information? If that is the case then they should have been discharged.

Read the article BEFORE you post. PLEASE!!!!!

 

[smoke_em06]

Read the article BEFORE you post. PLEASE!!!!!

Shut up pj. I am not in the mood for crap this morning.

 

[smoke_em06]

He shouldn't have violated the policy. He obviously told someone.

 

[volinbham]

Just a side note Real, I haven't really seen much that says arabic language classes have seen a dramatic increase at colleges. If I was in school and had language skills, that would seem a no brainer way to make a living....

Ecourage your kids to learn Arabic, Chinese or Spanish...there will be plenty'o jobs for them.

 

[therealUT]

Just a side note Real, I haven't really seen much that says arabic language classes have seen a dramatic increase at colleges. If I was in school and had language skills, that would seem a no brainer way to make a living....

I still do not believe that it is offered at all that many schools. However, I know that there is an increase in those taking it at West Point, mainly because the perception that it is a tough language to learn is just that, a perception. Unlike most Asian languages, Arabic has an alphabet. Also, according to those I know who speak Farsi, the grammar is actually easier than Spanish grammar.

Colleges that off Arabic Language and Literature Programs of Study

Dartmouth
Georgetown
Ohio State
State University of New York (SUNY)-Binghamton
UCLA
Notre Dame
UT-Austin
Wash U, StL
York University

The United States Military Academy offers Arabic courses, however, not degree programs.

 

[volinbham]

This further illustrates how the impractical nature of the current policy. It should be an "either or" proposition. You either allow gays in the miltary or you don't. That draws a line and eliminates the vague, inconsistent enforcement and implementation of the laughable system currently in place.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[therealUT]

This further illustrates how the impractical nature of the current policy. It should be an "either or" proposition. You either allow gays in the miltary or you don't. That draws a line and eliminates the vague, inconsistent enforcement and implementation of the laughable system currently in place.

It is an awful policy. If a soldier is a good soldier, then there should be no reason to get rid of them. This soldier possessed a vital and necessary skill. He was most likely involved in a relationship with another soldier. Apparently, there was a soldier out there who wanted to get rid of him. Sad really.

 

[utvolpj]

Shut up pj. I am not in the mood for crap this morning.

Then don't post insane responses.

Agree w/ real on this, he was doing a valuable job and was evidently thought very highly of before this. Seems like it was a witchunt.

 

[smoke_em06]

Then don't post insane responses.

Agree w/ real on this, he was doing a valuable job and was evidently thought very highly of before this. Seems like it was a witchunt.

I know that real is doing a valuable job, and I also know that he knows more about this than we do. However, if a policy is in place, then you should abide by it. There are a lot of laws that I don't like or agree with, but I still abide by them. Tough situation though. If a policy was violated then a policy was violated. Simple as that.

 

[therealUT]

My philosophy regarding all my joe's is: Do your job, do it as best you can. I can have a beer with you every once in a while, I will never get drunk with you. If you have a problem and you need some help, come talk to me. Other than that, I do not want nor do I need to hear about your personal life.

 

[therealUT]

I know that real is doing a valuable job, and I also know that he knows more about this than we do. However, if a policy is in place, then you should abide by it. There are a lot of laws that I don't like or agree with, but I still abide by them. Tough situation though. If a policy was violated then a policy was violated. Simple as that.

The policy is that a member of your unit may not ask if you are homosexual. If they ask, you are in no way obligated to tell them you are homosexual. Considering that the only evidence against him were a bunch of anonymous emails and what follows below, I would say that there should have been absolutely no admissable evidence against him.

While investigators were never able to determine who the accuser was, "in the end, the nature and the volume of the evidence and Sgt. Copas's own sworn statement led me to discharge him," Zellmer said.

"The director brought everyone into the hallway and told us about this e-mail they had just received and blatantly asked, 'Which one of you are gay?'" Copas said.

On Dec. 2, investigators formally interviewed Copas and asked if he understood the military's policy on homosexuals, if he had any close acquaintances who were gay, and if he was involved in community theater. He answered affirmatively.

But Copas declined to answer when they asked, "Have you ever engaged in homosexual activity or conduct?" He refused to answer 19 of 47 questions before he asked for a lawyer and the interrogation stopped.

Copas said he accepted the honorable discharge to end the ordeal, to avoid lying about his sexuality and risking a perjury charge, and to keep friends from being targeted.

Another black eye for the Army.

 

[smoke_em06]

The policy is that a member of your unit may not ask if you are homosexual. If they ask, you are in no way obligated to tell them you are homosexual. Considering that the only evidence against him were a bunch of anonymous emails and what follows below, I would say that there should have been absolutely no admissable evidence against him.
Another black eye for the Army.

But we don't know what was in those emails. Do we?

 

[therealUT]

But we don't know what was in those emails. Do we?

Well Smoke Em, if you want to get rid of valuable Army assets for the sole reason that they orient themselves differently then you do, then that is your prerogative. However, I feel it is flat out wrong and humiliating to the Army.

 

[smoke_em06]

Well Smoke Em, if you want to get rid of valuable Army assets for the sole reason that they orient themselves differently then you do, then that is your prerogative. However, I feel it is flat out wrong and humiliating to the Army.

I am not talking about the fact that this guy was gay. I am just saying that he obviously violated policy. Whether you agree with the policy or not, you have to follow it. We don't know what was in those emails. Something was there that prompted his dismissal.

 

[therealUT]

I am not talking about the fact that this guy was gay. I am just saying that he obviously violated policy. Whether you agree with the policy or not, you have to follow it. We don't know what was in those emails. Something was there that prompted his dismissal.

No, you do not have to blindly follow policy. Especially, when the accuser refuses to even be named. The responsible action that should have been taken by the Cmdr would have been to demand that the accuser reveal him/herself. Most likely, that would not have happened, as the accuser is probably another homosexual. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the accuser was probably an ex-lover, who had an axe to grind.

 

[vader]

Read the article BEFORE you post. PLEASE!!!!!

Reading is for losers, right smoke_em?

 

[vader]

I still do not believe that it is offered at all that many schools. However, I know that there is an increase in those taking it at West Point, mainly because the perception that it is a tough language to learn is just that, a perception. Unlike most Asian languages, Arabic has an alphabet. Also, according to those I know who speak Farsi, the grammar is actually easier than Spanish grammar.

Colleges that off Arabic Language and Literature Programs of Study

Dartmouth
Georgetown
Ohio State
State University of New York (SUNY)-Binghamton
UCLA
Notre Dame
UT-Austin
Wash U, StL
York University

The United States Military Academy offers Arabic courses, however, not degree programs.

Nice link. Good info. Maybe my daughter should go to Austin after all :ermm:

 

[vader]

Way to go LTC Zellmer, dismiss an Arabic linguist for no earthly reason. I mean, it is not like we really need Arabic linguists during this war...
Nothing like a Battalion Commander being pushed around by some joe who apparently has an agenda against Copas.

This is utter BS! :banghead:

P.S. The situation, not your analysis, BTW.

 

[smoke_em06]

No, you do not have to blindly follow policy. Especially, when the accuser refuses to even be named. The responsible action that should have been taken by the Cmdr would have been to demand that the accuser reveal him/herself. Most likely, that would not have happened, as the accuser is probably another homosexual. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the accuser was probably an ex-lover, who had an axe to grind.

Maybe your right real. All I am saying is that even though the accuser was anonymous, he must have known information that left the officer with no choice but to question him. I don't want to see the army lose good men, but if they violated a policy then there is no choice.

 

[therealUT]

Maybe your right real. All I am saying is that even though the accuser was anonymous, he must have known information that left the officer with no choice but to question him. I don't want to see the army lose good men, but if they violated a policy then there is no choice.

There is always a choice Smoke Em. Also, if LTC Zellmer had enough evidence to actual move on this, then why ask the personal questions? Why not just move on it? The whole situation is more than shady.

 

[smoke_em06]

There is always a choice Smoke Em. Also, if LTC Zellmer had enough evidence to actual move on this, then why ask the personal questions? Why not just move on it? The whole situation is more than shady.

Fair enough.