Lady Vols - Ball Security

[Spook1]

In the Lady Vols vs Auburn game, the LV had 21 turnovers with 10 in the second quarter alone. Auburn scored 20 points off those turnovers. Auburn had 12 steals of the ball from the Lady Vols. The point is that the LV are lacking ball security. If this is not corrected, it will cost the LV a game at some point before the season is over.

 

[Volstylexx]

Here are our turnovers this season. Green indicates we turned it over fewer times than our opponent in that game. Statistically, we haven't made any improvement in turnovers over the course of the year. We've only won the turnover margin in 3 of our last 11 games, compared to winning it in 6 of our first 11.

vs. Auburn 21
vs. Arkansas 15
vs. Vandy 13
vs. M. State 23
vs. Ole Miss 10
vs. LSU 16
vs. Uconn 21
vs. Missouri 13
vs. Florida 6
va. UGA 23
vs. TX A&M 20
vs. Vandy 13
vs. M. State 8
vs. Alabama 13
vs. Florida 23
vs. Wofford 13
vs. Stanford 5
vs UCF 6
vs. Wright State 9
vs. Chatt 13
vs. VA Tech 16
vs. E. KY 12
vs. Colorado 22
vs. Gonzaga 16
vs. UCLA 18
vs. Rutgers 21
vs. Indiana 15
vs. Umass 18
vs. Ohio State 29

 

[Spook1]

Here are our turnovers this season. Green indicates we turned it over fewer times than our opponent in that game. Statistically, we haven't made any improvement in turnovers over the course of the year. We've only won the turnover margin in 3 of our last 11 games, compared to winning it in 6 of our first 11.

vs. Auburn 21
vs. Arkansas 15
vs. Vandy 13
vs. M. State 23
vs. Ole Miss 10
vs. LSU 16
vs. Uconn 21
vs. Missouri 13
vs. Florida 6
va. UGA 23
vs. TX A&M 20
vs. Vandy 13
vs. M. State 8
vs. Alabama 13
vs. Florida 23
vs. Wofford 13
vs. Stanford 5
vs UCF 6
vs. Wright State 9
vs. Chatt 13
vs. VA Tech 16
vs. E. KY 12
vs. Colorado 22
vs. Gonzaga 16
vs. UCLA 18
vs. Rutgers 21
vs. Indiana 15
vs. Umass 18
vs. Ohio State 29

Thank you for your further excellent analysis. I am a great believer in thee Rick Barnes system...in practice if a player has a turnover....he had to run to the top of the arena and bacck.

 

[Cloudland vol]

Take away the number of turnovers that Horston is personally responsible for and see how much the number per game decreases! IMO, for most of the season and especially after Jackson and Harper resolved their differences, Jackson’s game has greatly improved, otherwise the team would be no better than .500. for the season. Most of Horston’s turnovers are just simply not taking care of the ball and attempting to make plays on her own that have little chance of success!

 

[Dak1219]

Take away the number of turnovers that Horston is personally responsible for and see how much the number per game decreases! IMO, for most of the season and especially after Jackson and Harper resolved their differences, Jackson’s game has greatly improved, otherwise the team would be no better than .500. for the season. Most of Horston’s turnovers are just simply not taking care of the ball and attempting to make plays on her own that have little chance of success!

Jordan is averaging 2.7 turnovers per game this season. That really isn't a huge number, but carry on.

 

[Volfan2012]

In the Lady Vols vs Auburn game, the LV had 21 turnovers with 10 in the second quarter alone. Auburn scored 20 points off those turnovers. Auburn had 12 steals of the ball from the Lady Vols. The point is that the LV are lacking ball security. If this is not corrected, it will cost the LV a game at some point before the season is over.

We still talking about correcting this. Not going to happen were not correcting anything cause after four years you realize were going to be high turnover team in most games. Average 15 a game and so that is who we are.

 

[glv98]

Take away the number of turnovers that Horston is personally responsible for and see how much the number per game decreases! IMO, for most of the season and especially after Jackson and Harper resolved their differences, Jackson’s game has greatly improved, otherwise the team would be no better than .500. for the season. Most of Horston’s turnovers are just simply not taking care of the ball and attempting to make plays on her own that have little chance of success!

Not sure that's fair - RJ, for all her greatness, makes way too many t.o.s, mostly just careless passes. Along with inconsistent 3ball shooting, her only real weakness. It is correct that JH's t.o.s are from forcing play and from her frustration level, but she has brought it down over the years. KJH best players have always been big t.o. makers - both Rae and Rennia could really roll em up. For all these players part of big t.o. numbers is just having the ball in their hands more.

I believe it's been pointed out here before that KJH's teams have historically been high t.o. ers.

 

[JohnWardForever]

In the Lady Vols vs Auburn game, the LV had 21 turnovers with 10 in the second quarter alone. Auburn scored 20 points off those turnovers. Auburn had 12 steals of the ball from the Lady Vols. The point is that the LV are lacking ball security. If this is not corrected, it will cost the LV a game at some point before the season is over.

Ya Think??

 

[37620VOL]

Take away the number of turnovers that Horston is personally responsible for and see how much the number per game decreases! IMO, for most of the season and especially after Jackson and Harper resolved their differences, Jackson’s game has greatly improved, otherwise the team would be no better than .500. for the season. Most of Horston’s turnovers are just simply not taking care of the ball and attempting to make plays on her own that have little chance of success!

I thought Walker had the worst TOs. 5 TOs in 23 minutes. Puckett's 2 TOs in 5 minutes, also not good.

 

[Dadof2Vols]

Thank you for your further excellent analysis. I am a great believer in thee Rick Barnes system...in practice if a player has a turnover....he had to run to the top of the arena and bacck.

Barnes/Harper should add that in practice to those who miss a free throw during game.

 

[Dadof2Vols]

In the Lady Vols vs Auburn game, the LV had 21 turnovers with 10 in the second quarter alone. Auburn scored 20 points off those turnovers. Auburn had 12 steals of the ball from the Lady Vols. The point is that the LV are lacking ball security. If this is not corrected, it will cost the LV a game at some point before the season is over.

How many losses has it already been the cause for?

 

[Bakers1]

Take away the number of turnovers that Horston is personally responsible for and see how much the number per game decreases! IMO, for most of the season and especially after Jackson and Harper resolved their differences, Jackson’s game has greatly improved, otherwise the team would be no better than .500. for the season. Most of Horston’s turnovers are just simply not taking care of the ball and attempting to make plays on her own that have little chance of success!

So you praise Jackson and blame Horston as the main culprit as far as turnovers go??? Is this based off of numbers i.e., facts or opinion.

Horston - 89 assists - 74 turnovers
Jackson - 36 assists - 69 turnovers

Both are great players and I'm not knocking on either player. I love both. Basketball is a team sport and one stat doesn't define a players overall impact on the game. For her part Horston has a positive ast/to ratio and she's not a PG. She is being asked to do more with the ball in her hands that Jackson.

Looking at these numbers when the ball is in Jordan's hands you might get 74 turnovers but you also get 89 buckets made.

 

[37620VOL]

Barnes/Harper should add that in practice to those who miss a free throw during game.

Not much of an incentive to get to the FT line. Even really good shooters are going to miss 2 out of 10.

 

[Dadof2Vols]

I get your point….I heard many decades ago, Dean Smith made the whole team run a lap for every missed FT even if you didn’t play in the game so everyone understood how important he thought they were.

 

[Coach Jumper]

So you praise Jackson and blame Horston as the main culprit as far as turnovers go??? Is this based off of numbers i.e., facts or opinion.

Horston - 89 assists - 74 turnovers
Jackson - 36 assists - 69 turnovers

Both are great players and I'm not knocking on either player. I love both. Basketball is a team sport and one stat doesn't define a players overall impact on the game. For her part Horston has a positive ast/to ratio and she's not a PG. She is being asked to do more with the ball in her hands that Jackson.

Looking at these numbers when the ball is in Jordan's hands you might get 74 turnovers but you also get 89 buckets made.

I agree

You don't force a thoroughbred,,
you guide the thoroughbred
Let it run
Let Jordan be Jordan
Coach is right on this one!
Jordan has bad games where she is only bad in one stat, yet fills the other statistical columns

Its when she has games where all areas are on target, that set our expectations
Let Manny be Manny,,,errr,,,Jordan be Jordan
And appreciate that she's ours

 

[BruisedOrange]

It's amazing now to what degree every team charts every aspect of the game.

Since this has been a recurring (or consistent, or maybe even defining) problem for recent LV teams, I would love to know how our staff breaks down turnovers, and if that has revealed any pattern.

For example, Passing Turnovers could theoretically be categorized and broken down as:
Forced--too well defended, --too small a window, --before the receiver was ready, etc.
Inaccurate--too high, --too low, --behind, --ahead, etc.
Accurate but...--telegraphed, --lacking velocity, --with too much velocity for the distance, --accurate to where the receiver should have been, --accurate to where the passer hoped the receiver would be, --mishandled by the receiver, etc.

Brains and eyes are tricky.




But certain clumping of turnover data might indicate some common factor, like more players seeing what they hope or expect to see rather than what's actually there, or players being more aware of their teammates' positioning than defenders positioning. Or maybe we just happen to have recruited a high percentage of players with lower aptitudes in spatial reasoning (year-after-year).

Whatever the reason that accounts for this team characteristic, it's surely more than just lack of drills or discipline in practice. Our coaches have too much experience to have let this go un-remedied, if that was all it took.

 

[Woodlawn VOL]

No reason to blame any particular player. Our problem is our team in general makes way to many bad passes. We often stand around on offense and get no space making passing and ball handling tough. We need more pure shooters, ball handlers and good passers.

 

[Deebowbear]

No reason to blame any particular player. Our problem is our team in general makes way to many bad passes. We often stand around on offense and get no space making passing and ball handling tough. We need more pure shooters, ball handlers and good passers.

Need a great point guard

 

[Coach Jumper]

No reason to blame any particular player. Our problem is our team in general makes way to many bad passes. We often stand around on offense and get no space making passing and ball handling tough. We need more pure shooters, ball handlers and good passers.

I went back and reviewed each turnover from the Auburn game
Surprising results
(5) Unforced=not caused by defense
(3) Forced=good defense or def-play
(13) XXX = shoulda been a no-call,,or if I look at the play and I don't see a better option at that moment

 

[BruisedOrange]

I went back and reviewed each turnover from the Auburn game
Surprising results
(5) Unforced=not caused by defense
(3) Forced=good defense or def-play
(13) XXX = shoulda been a no-call,,or if I look at the play and I don't see a better option at that moment
View attachment 537389

So as a coach, from this list, beyond holding accountable during video review... do you see anything worth expending valuable practice time to address?

Do you see any teaching opportunities? ...any skill to be honed in drills? ...any cogent "swing thought" to emphasize before the next game?

Or are these just "young person" mistakes to be eliminated by "becoming better basketball players" over time and through experience?

 

[youcancallmeAl]

Of players who see a lot of playing time, Horston and Jackson have the highest turnovers/minute of playing time, about 0.1. Walker and Powell have rates of about 0.07. So Horston and Jackson commit about 1/2 again as many to's as our point guards.

 

[Raebo]

And Caitlin Clark is averaging 4 turnovers a game. So far about 150 on the season. Of course she is averaging about 7 assists a game. Her turnovers usually occur when trying to thread the needle on a long pass. IE, like Coach Jumper suggests, need to look at the reason for the turnovers. The top teams are averaging about 13-14 turnovers a game this year. Years ago when we went undefeated we averaged about 17 turnovers a game.

As far as running laps, my personal opinion is that correcting what they did wrong (shooting free throws, passing to a cutting player, etc.) is more effective than running laps. Especially at this point in the season I think coaches in general are trying to save tired banged up legs/bodies.

 

[glv98]

As far as running laps, my personal opinion is that correcting what they did wrong (shooting free throws, passing to a cutting player, etc.) is more effective than running laps. Especially at this point in the season I think coaches in general are trying to save tired banged up legs/bodies.

This is by far one of our most frequent discussions around here, and one where common sense like you just stated never seems to break thru. I'm pretty sure the Rick Barnes punishment model is urban myth, not truth. He's too experienced and smart for that. Not only does punishment for t.o.s like running (the Barnes myth use to be stair running) risk overtaxing tired late season legs, it's nonsensical to punish for accidental behavior. He'll take a player out to refocus for sure, and that's warrented. But punishment indicates willful misbehavior so unless you think a player throws the ball away on purpose, teaching and refocusing is much more effective than physical punishment.

But the "Pat Summitt would have run em til they puked" crowd will never believe this common sense.

 

[Coach Jumper]

So as a coach, from this list, beyond holding accountable during video review... do you see anything worth expending valuable practice time to address?

Do you see any teaching opportunities? ...any skill to be honed in drills? ...any cogent "swing thought" to emphasize before the next game?

Or are these just "young person" mistakes to be eliminated by "becoming better basketball players" over time and through experience?

I watched that game twice. first as a viewer, second as an analyst
The XXX entries are usually not so many
several of those plays would have resulted in a gasp from the audience if completed
YES, there is always teaching moments missed and I am from the school of thought,,,
"2 timeouts for game two for end of game"
So, yes I would have called the TO to get them to make the simple play over the spectacular one for a couple of these
but for the most part, this was a very good and very hard fought game
Auburn needed this win more than we did and played like it