Maybe our system is made for scrubs

#1
motown vol 09

motown vol 09

Kenny Powers is ALL VOL
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
796
Likes
1
#1
Bruce Pearl talked so much about the importance of getting McDonald's All-Americans. If we had the top players in the country we could go the next level. But you know what, it sure is hard to get those guys to dive after loose balls and get them to rebound and play within the system. Maybe we should build our team around Skylar McBee and people like Jujaun Smith who looked like he had never touched a ball when Buzz Peterson was the coach. Bruce Pearl can couch guys who hustle. That is a prerequisite to playing here. You can't teach it and you can't learn it. Hulstling is something a few players do and everyone else talks about doing.
 
#3
#3
Of course you can teach 'hustle', when 'hustle' means diving for loose-balls and the like. Of course, then, you can learn it.

Are there certain genetic or social factors that make some people more inclined than others? Yes. Does this mean its purely a trait which you get from birth or you're out of luck? No.

And let's be honest here: how many potential plays exist in a season where diving for a ball is a) a sound option and b) succeeds?

Not enough to be the difference in any real meaningful way. Plus there's placement issues that factor in and skew the whole thing. It's like the example of the CF in baseball who never seems to dive for the ball because he lines up better before the hit, or reads the ball right of the bat. Compare that with the exciting leaper who is out of position and misjudges and thus forces himself into those situations. Obv. not an exact analogy, but the point remains.
 
#5
#5
There's just questions to be raised about how one can really determine whether diving for the ball in a situation is either worth the risk or not. Can the player instantaneously calculate his odds of getting to the ball first vs the odds that if he does not the play will result in an easy basket with him down on the ground with nothing to show for it but 'grit' and a 2-point swing? Can we reward a player who just always goes for the ball no matter what, failing to take into account the possible risk? Is NOT diving for the ball sometimes the sign of discipline as well?

Assuming that there is more to the story than just "he hustles"/"he doesn't", is there really any way to honestly value something like this?
 
#6
#6
There was too much expectation put on this team. Without a point guard we are not a whole team. We are divided right now. We have players trying to do things that they should not be doing.
I agree with the whole Hustling comment. I think this team plays weak. And they dont play hard under the basket.
But to be negative about bringing Mcdonalds All Americans is retarded. Without players like Hopson we will always be a bubble team. And by that I mean we will always make it to that next level but lose because we dont have the talent when we need it. Yeah heart can win you some games but skill wins most of them.
See last year we had Lofton and JuJuan. Both of them could shoot the rock, this year we replaced them with Tatum and Hopson. Both are very young and we dont have that bailout three when we need it this year.
If you ask me I would say there are 3 players that need to step up their game for this team to go anywhere
1. Scotty Hopson....He needs to be more aggressive and drive the ball to the basket. When he drives his leaping ability should be enought to elevate him to a good look at the basket. AND LEARN TO PLAY SOME DEFENSE!
2. Maze........Needs to look to penetrate more and dish the ball. If we set good ball screens than we would see more open shots. But Maze has to hit the runners in the lane. If he does that than the bigs down low will try and defend him more when he drives which frees up your Forwards and Post players for easy dishes.
3. Chism..... This guy has some great talent but seems to be a pushover. If he shoots the ball he needs to learn how to follow his shot. He needs to demand the ball down low and make something happen. If the ball stays around the top of the perimeter than we are not forcing teams to play defense. We gotta get the ball down low and than kick it out.
 
#7
#7
m37bruno said:
There was too much expectation put on this team. Without a point guard we are not a whole team. We are divided right now. We have players trying to do things that they should not be doing.
I agree with the whole Hustling comment. I think this team plays weak. And they dont play hard under the basket.
But to be negative about bringing Mcdonalds All Americans is retarded. Without players like Hopson we will always be a bubble team. And by that I mean we will always make it to that next level but lose because we dont have the talent when we need it. Yeah heart can win you some games but skill wins most of them.
See last year we had Lofton and JuJuan. Both of them could shoot the rock, this year we replaced them with Tatum and Hopson. Both are very young and we dont have that bailout three when we need it this year.
If you ask me I would say there are 3 players that need to step up their game for this team to go anywhere
1. Scotty Hopson....He needs to be more aggressive and drive the ball to the basket. When he drives his leaping ability should be enought to elevate him to a good look at the basket. AND LEARN TO PLAY SOME DEFENSE!
2. Maze........Needs to look to penetrate more and dish the ball. If we set good ball screens than we would see more open shots. But Maze has to hit the runners in the lane. If he does that than the bigs down low will try and defend him more when he drives which frees up your Forwards and Post players for easy dishes.
3. Chism..... This guy has some great talent but seems to be a pushover. If he shoots the ball he needs to learn how to follow his shot. He needs to demand the ball down low and make something happen. If the ball stays around the top of the perimeter than we are not forcing teams to play defense. We gotta get the ball down low and than kick it out.
Click to expand...

Kick it out to who? That's the problem
 
#8
#8
The value of someone who does the small stuff is remarkable for one reason. IT'S CONTAGIOUS!!!
Dane Bradshaw did and it spread. everyone was doing it.
Attitudes are contagious, its doesnt matter if it's positive or negative. If u have leaders or lack there of who dont hustle then young players dont catch the fever.
 
#9
#9
motown vol 09 said:
Bruce Pearl talked so much about the importance of getting McDonald's All-Americans. If we had the top players in the country we could go the next level. But you know what, it sure is hard to get those guys to dive after loose balls and get them to rebound and play within the system. Maybe we should build our team around Skylar McBee and people like Jujaun Smith who looked like he had never touched a ball when Buzz Peterson was the coach. Bruce Pearl can couch guys who hustle. That is a prerequisite to playing here. You can't teach it and you can't learn it. Hulstling is something a few players do and everyone else talks about doing.
Click to expand...


Hatvol mentioned something several weeks ago about Bruce Pearl being able to coach alley cats, but we would have to see if he could coach fat cats. It made sense then and makes more sense now. I would really like to see Tennessee scrap, hustle, compete, and fight for everything like the previous years.
 
#10
#10
me too, that is the system. that is how UT Basketball became relevant is because of hustle. i see a rude awakening for some of these guys in the off season.
 
#11
#11
There was talk on the evening Sports Animal show along the same topic. I think it's a completely ridiculous idea. You want top talent. . . .period. Now, Bruce just needs to learn how to coach it.
 
#12
#12
kiddiedoc said:
There was talk on the evening Sports Animal show along the same topic. I think it's a completely ridiculous idea. You want top talent. . . .period. Now, Bruce just needs to learn how to coach it.
Click to expand...

i still think if we could insert one hard nose guy to this team, the attitude spreads.
 
#13
#13
I think BPV has already made a point similar to this, but here goes: I'll coach a team of Scotty Hopsons and you coach a team of Dane Bradshaws and I will beat you like a drum, night in and night out, no matter how much effort your kids put out there, and no matter how crappy of a coach I may be.
 
#15
#15
lidderer said:
There's just questions to be raised about how one can really determine whether diving for the ball in a situation is either worth the risk or not. Can the player instantaneously calculate his odds of getting to the ball first vs the odds that if he does not the play will result in an easy basket with him down on the ground with nothing to show for it but 'grit' and a 2-point swing? Can we reward a player who just always goes for the ball no matter what, failing to take into account the possible risk? Is NOT diving for the ball sometimes the sign of discipline as well?

Assuming that there is more to the story than just "he hustles"/"he doesn't", is there really any way to honestly value something like this?
Click to expand...

If you are diving for the ball, then it is most likely going to be 4 on 4 anyway...otherwise...why are you diving and not just "grabbing"? Two guys are going to be on the floor, in most cases, as a worst case scenario. You don't want guys flailing around out there....but when a ball if up for grabs, you don't just want to stand there and look at it.
 
#16
#16
TennTradition said:
If you are diving for the ball, then it is most likely going to be 4 on 4 anyway...otherwise...why are you diving and not just "grabbing"? Two guys are going to be on the floor, in most cases, as a worst case scenario. You don't want guys flailing around out there....but when a ball if up for grabs, you don't just want to stand there and look at it.
Click to expand...

Well this simplifies things a bit too much, but yes, in such a clear-cut case that would be a situation where the player could mentally(probably more an instinctual thing after a certain point) calculate the odds in his favour.

The situations aren't always that simple though. Sometimes your teammates are down setting up under the opponent's hoop and a loose ball happens during a press, a slightly errant pass, etc. There's a lot of situations where diving isn't advisable.

Also note, in baseball again, how some players have a better understanding of the likelihood of catching a ball if they dive vs the ball being uncatchable. Sometimes a player will know whether he can get there on time or not, and acts(or doesn't, in this case) accordingly.
 
#17
#17
DowntownVol said:
I think BPV has already made a point similar to this, but here goes: I'll coach a team of Scotty Hopsons and you coach a team of Dane Bradshaws and I will beat you like a drum, night in and night out, no matter how much effort your kids put out there, and no matter how crappy of a coach I may be.
Click to expand...

If thats the case then how did we lose to ole miss? They are not more talented than us they just outworked us. Same for the auburn game. I have a different train of thought I think i can take the team of Dane Bradshaw's and outwork and outsmart you each time. Dane almost always played against players bigger and more talented than him and almost always outplayed them. JMO :)
 
#18
#18
Rutledgerowdy29 said:
If thats the case then how did we lose to ole miss? They are not more talented than us they just outworked us. Same for the auburn game. I have a different train of thought I think i can take the team of Dane Bradshaw's and outwork and outsmart you each time. Dane almost always played against players bigger and more talented than him and almost always outplayed them. JMO :)
Click to expand...

good points.
 
#21
#21
Rutledgerowdy29 said:
Dane didn't lose that game for us, his line was 8pts, 7 assists, 5 boards. Ramar's 10 TO's killed us that night. I hope I didn't misconstrue your post lol
Click to expand...

Oh so that energy is in fact not infectious? So you really honestly are suggesting that we have 5 bradshaw's out on the court? We wouldn't win a game.
 
#22
#22
lidderer said:
Oh so that energy is in fact not infectious? So you really honestly are suggesting that we have 5 bradshaw's out on the court? We wouldn't win a game.
Click to expand...

:mf_surrender: chill out man were just talkin here. When you look at the teams from the last 3 years especially Bruce's first year our talent was not as good as what we supposedly have now. Now we have all this supposed talent and CANT win a game as you would say. Idk what the problem is with this team I'm just saying that we never outwork our opponent anymore. This isn't just meant to be about Dane Bradshaw I'm talking about all the players who aren't as talented and have to work smarter and harder than their opponent. That's what seems to work in our system
 
#23
#23
Rutledgerowdy29 said:
:mf_surrender: chill out man were just talkin here. When you look at the teams from the last 3 years especially Bruce's first year our talent was not as good as what we supposedly have now. Now we have all this supposed talent and CANT win a game as you would say. Idk what the problem is with this team I'm just saying that we never outwork our opponent anymore. This isn't just meant to be about Dane Bradshaw I'm talking about all the players who aren't as talented and have to work smarter and harder than their opponent. That's what seems to work in our system
Click to expand...

My mistake if you read that response as hostile in some way, it wasn't intended to be. I promise you there is nothing 'un-chill' in these responses.

I do agree with you to a degree about how certain players on this squad lack that underdog status that can usually drive a player to play beyond their means, I just think it's limiting to simply say that 'hustle and grit' are a) unlearnable; b) necessary; c) the main requirement.

The difference this year seems to be an inability to hit 3 point shots, a huge drop-off in effective half-court press(I'll admit some of that can be chalked up to this vague 'hustle'), and what has to be the most drab looking offensive set since Naismith's Peaches.

I don't know that calling Jajuan and Chris 'not as talented' makes a lot of sense either. Sure, Dane is a good example, and I guess Howell(though he was pretty awful), but beyond that I don't really see many examples.
 
#24
#24
lidderer said:
My mistake if you read that response as hostile in some way, it wasn't intended to be. I promise you there is nothing 'un-chill' in these responses.

I do agree with you to a degree about how certain players on this squad lack that underdog status that can usually drive a player to play beyond their means, I just think it's limiting to simply say that 'hustle and grit' are a) unlearnable; b) necessary; c) the main requirement.

The difference this year seems to be an inability to hit 3 point shots, a huge drop-off in effective half-court press(I'll admit some of that can be chalked up to this vague 'hustle'), and what has to be the most drab looking offensive set since Naismith's Peaches.

I don't know that calling Jajuan and Chris 'not as talented' makes a lot of sense either. Sure, Dane is a good example, and I guess Howell(though he was pretty awful), but beyond that I don't really see many examples.
Click to expand...

The only way I was saying juan and chris werent as talented is based on their recruiting rankings. They turned out to be two of the most talented players in the conference the last couple of years. I completely agree that if we had a dangerous outside threat then we would probably have at least 3 or 4 more wins. The hustle thing however cannot be taught unless you want to be taught it. Looking at buzz's last year and Bruce's first year the two teams were different in hustle. When Bruce came in he convinced the guys that if they would work hard the system would work. They completely bought into it. Every loose ball they saw as THEIRS and they were not going to let anyone else have it. Their press was so effective because they ran FULL SPEED to every corner and cut off every passing lane. Bruce taught them all of this because they wanted to learn it because they wanted to win. I believe the team we have now wants to win but I just don't think they want to put forth the effort it takes to win
 
#25
#25
Rutledgerowdy29 said:
The only way I was saying juan and chris werent as talented is based on their recruiting rankings. They turned out to be two of the most talented players in the conference the last couple of years. I completely agree that if we had a dangerous outside threat then we would probably have at least 3 or 4 more wins. The hustle thing however cannot be taught unless you want to be taught it. Looking at buzz's last year and Bruce's first year the two teams were different in hustle. When Bruce came in he convinced the guys that if they would work hard the system would work. They completely bought into it. Every loose ball they saw as THEIRS and they were not going to let anyone else have it. Their press was so effective because they ran FULL SPEED to every corner and cut off every passing lane. Bruce taught them all of this because they wanted to learn it because they wanted to win. I believe the team we have now wants to win but I just don't think they want to put forth the effort it takes to win
Click to expand...

I'm wary of Recruit rankings, but I agree with the rest of what you're saying mostly.

I think the luxury of Jajuan's pure athletic ability(see: sneakiness) helped the press enormously, whereas Prince's lanky frame, or Hopson's initial lethargy just doesn't translate as well. I just don't think that it's simply because Jajuan had more determination, but more likely that his unique physical abilities(quickness, lateral movement, dime-shifting) helped in press-situations.

I suppose the case could be made, then, that Pearl, if he really wants to win under that previous style of play, should be recruiting different types of players based on their non-mental strengths, rather than how undervalued they are.

It's just such a really tricky situation to sort out the actual value or existence of 'hustle' I think, and glossing over everything else to say "we lack moxie" does a disservice to the real problems at hand. I'm not saying you're saying this, just that the thread hints at that.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top