Military Discussion Thread

#1

therealUT

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#1
I would like to start this out with a little background information on our involvement in the Iran-Iraq War, since there are plenty of people out there who have misconceptions about it.

While he was not the greatest leader economically, in fact his administration ruined the economy of Iran, the Shah was very pro west and very much our ally. Since Iran bordered the Soviet Union, we, under Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter, built Iran's military into one of the most formidable forces in the world. However, the country was falling apart all around him, and soon the revolution won and the Ayatollah was in power. It was easy to gain enforce the popular sentiment that the U.S. was the great Sata since Ford and Carter's administrations sat back while the country plunged into poverty, all the while contributing billions to Iran in the way of a military. So, the first thing Khomeini did upon taking power was destroy the military, and he made this very, very public.

Saddam Hussein, like the rest of the world, watched as Iran's military turned from one of the most dominant forces in the world to non existent, and he decided it was about time that Iraq controlled the oil in western Iran. So, Iraqi forces invaded, within 3 weeks they were in control of over half of Iran, and had met little to no resistance. The rest of the world felt that in a little over a month, all of Iran would be occupied by Iraq. However, Saddam Hussein, for reasons that military experts still endlessly ponder today, ordered his forces to halt and set up a defensive.

After a lengthy stalemate, Khomeini recruited millions of 11 to 14 year olds and turned them into a unit known as the Basji. Armed with nothing but the blessing of the Ayatollah and their faith, these human waves repeated assaulted fortified Iraqi positions, eventually pushing the Iraqi forces back to their border. Once this was accomplished, the Ayatollah made several public speeches in which his intentions were clear: conquer Iraq and use the military equipment gained through the conquest to wage war on the West, most importantly the U.S. and their allies. Of course, this sounded great to the USSR, so they went forward and pledged their support, through arms, to the Iranian cause. It is at this point that the U.S., and the Reagan administration, made the decision to keep Iran in check where they were.

With new weapons, Iraq from the U.S., Iran from the Soviets, the stalemate continued at the border. Khomeini decided it was time to put the Basji to use again, and again to unbelievable success. At this point, that Saddam is believed to have greatly accelerated his chemical weapons program, and eventually used them to ward off the human waves and bring about a cease fire. Is it regrettable? Yes. Is it any more brutal than sending millions and millions of middle school aged boys to their deaths? No.

Also, there was a poster that stated that Saddam is now being charged with the very war crimes that we promoted. First, we did not promote Saddam's chemical weapons program, we simply looked the other way, since there were very few other options to stopping the Basji. Second, the crimes that he is being charged with now, are not the use of chemical weapons on Iranians, it is the use of the chemical weapons against the Kurds and the southern Shiites. Which, interestingly enough, occured after the Gulf War.
 
#2
#2
Another thing should be noted. While the United States did aid Iraq, by far the number one supplier of weaponry was the Soviets Union. From the SCUD to all those Russian T-71's, there must have been a Hammer and a Sickle stamped on every piece of Iraqi equipment.

Also Iraq or Iran for that matter weren't the only 'bad guys' we supported. Even now Egypt is one of the largest receipient's on US Military aid. They actually have more M1A Abrams Tanks that our entire Marine Corps. Right or wrong it is a necessary part of foriegn policy. Just as we helped Stalin in WWII, choosing the lesser of two evils can save thousands of lives.
 
#3
#3
Just as we helped Stalin in WWII, choosing the lesser of two evils can save thousands of lives.

Russia took the brunt of the German military force in the Europe.

Think of how many American lives were saved by letting the Russians go after Berlin.
 
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#4
Do you want to discuss other military blunders and such?

How about the Korean War and the Chosin Reservoir, Lewis "Chesty" Puller has to be considered one of our greatest combat soldiers.
 
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#5
The Shah was incompetent to begin with. He wasn't exactly a paragon of virtue to his own people. He exploited them just as many monarchs do. He allowed his people to suffer and even oppressed many dissident groups. He set the stage for his own demise. He became hated by his people. And the US became the great Satan for supporting the Shah. Also add to the fact that while the military became top of the line, the country crumbled from within on infrastructure.

As for Iraq, we gave Saddam the credit he needed and the financing to buy up whatever he could get his hands on. We opened the doors in NATO to allow warehouse pricing on hardware. A large amount of Saddam's arsenal was French and German thanks to the US pulling many strings on that. We even allowed many of his scientists, etc. the ability to study in our country to learn the knowledge that became the research programs we feared the most.

As to my comment about promoting, we did nothing to prevent it and did everything to promote it. We encouraged Saddam to use all means to achieve victory. Rumsfeld was asked by the press after the meeting in my avatar if he had anything to say about Saddam's use of chemical weapons. Rumsfeld merely looked at the reporter, smirked, and kept going. There have been a few documents even in the ones discovered recently in Iraq that show the US was complacent in Saddam's weapons program and his use of these weapons.

As for your claim on when chemical weapons were used, where do you get they were used on the Shi'ites? When did that take place? I never heard of a chemical attack on them. As for the Kurds, that took place in 1988. That's a little before the Gulf War.

The US was quite involved in that war and aided in attacking several Iranian oil platforms. Remember the Iraqi mistake of hitting the USS Stark? We ignored that and pressed on with helping Iraq isolate Iran in the Persian Gulf. Also recall the USS Vincennes shooting down the Iranian airliner, mistaking it for an F-14? Come to find out we were mistaken but we were also in Iranian waters when we fired that missile.

Also, remember the Iran-Contra affair? We seemed to be selling arms and parts to Iran during this conflict with the hopes of getting our people back. We played both sides and in some shady, illegal actions, a few heads rolled in DC. Note events like this showed Iran and Iraq, along with every other country in the region that the US could not be trusted.
 
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Also, there was a poster that stated that Saddam is now being charged with the very war crimes that we promoted. First, we did not promote Saddam's chemical weapons program, we simply looked the other way, since there were very few other options to stopping the Basji. Second, the crimes that he is being charged with now, are not the use of chemical weapons on Iranians, it is the use of the chemical weapons against the Kurds and the southern Shiites. Which, interestingly enough, occured after the Gulf War.

(CSpindizzy @ Jun 29 said:
As for your claim on when chemical weapons were used, where do you get they were used on the Shi'ites? When did that take place? I never heard of a chemical attack on them. As for the Kurds, that took place in 1988. That's a little before the Gulf War.

I believe you would be talking about the Halabja attack, 1988:

Both Saddam Hussein and Ali Hasan al-Majid (who commanded Iraqi forces in northern Iraq in that period) have not had charges relating to the events at Halabja included within the charges for which they are appearing before the Iraqi Special Tribunal for crimes against humanity. The tribunal has made a point of avoiding directly charging President Hussein with the crimes committed at Halabja.

So, where was I wrong?
 
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(OrangeEmpire @ Jun 29 said:
Do you want to discuss other military blunders and such?

How about the Korean War and the Chosin Reservoir, Lewis "Chesty" Puller has to be considered one of our greatest combat soldiers.
If the leaders at the time would have listened to "Chesty" there wouldn't be a North Korea today.
 
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(therealUT @ Jun 29 said:
I believe you would be talking about the Halabja attack, 1988:
So, where was I wrong?

You said "Second, the crimes that he is being charged with now, are not the use of chemical weapons on Iranians, it is the use of the chemical weapons against the Kurds and the southern Shiites. Which, interestingly enough, occured after the Gulf War."

When did Saddam use chemical weapons against the southern Shiites? The chemical attack on the Kurds was before the Gulf War. The NON chemical attack on the Shiites was after the Gulf War. So you were wrong on both accounts.
 
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(ConMan @ Jun 29 said:
If the leaders at the time would have listened to "Chesty" there wouldn't be a North Korea today.

And considering we are still technically still at war or conflict with them, it's even worse. Basically, we've sat on a 50+ year old cease-fire while watching the NKPA rearm and replenish itself with hardware far superior than anything they ever dreamed of before. Now they have nukes and all sorts of bad toys. And we still just want to sit back and play diplomatic footsie with the armed to the teeth with WMD's nation while the 'supposedly' armed with WMD's Iraq is attacked.
 
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(CSpindizzy @ Jun 29 said:
And considering we are still technically still at war or conflict with them, it's even worse. Basically, we've sat on a 50+ year old cease-fire while watching the NKPA rearm and replenish itself with hardware far superior than anything they ever dreamed of before. Now they have nukes and all sorts of bad toys. And we still just want to sit back and play diplomatic footsie with the armed to the teeth with WMD's nation while the 'supposedly' armed with WMD's Iraq is attacked.

Spoken with plenty of operators in 5th Group about this, and the consensus (from commanders down,) is that if we pulled our forces off the DMZ, the South Korean military would move across and within 6 months time control the whole peninsula.
 
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(CSpindizzy @ Jun 29 said:
You said "Second, the crimes that he is being charged with now, are not the use of chemical weapons on Iranians, it is the use of the chemical weapons against the Kurds and the southern Shiites. Which, interestingly enough, occured after the Gulf War."

When did Saddam use chemical weapons against the southern Shiites? The chemical attack on the Kurds was before the Gulf War. The NON chemical attack on the Shiites was after the Gulf War. So you were wrong on both accounts.

Saddam is not being charged with the use of chemical weapons against the Kurds in Halabja! Reread all these posts, and find where I am wrong.
 
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(therealUT @ Jun 29 said:
Saddam is not being charged with the use of chemical weapons against the Kurds in Halabja! Reread all these posts, and find where I am wrong.

Again, when did he use chemical weapons against the southern Shiites? And you said the Kurdish attack was after the Gulf War. It was in 88 before the Gulf War.
 
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(CSpindizzy @ Jun 29 said:
Again, when did he use chemical weapons against the southern Shiites? And you said the Kurdish attack was after the Gulf War. It was in 88 before the Gulf War.

THE ATTACK AGAINST THE KURDS IN 1988 WAS HALABJA

Saddam used chemical warfare against the Shiites to quell the revolt that we inspired at the end of the Gulf War. He also used chemical warfare attacks against the Kurds in the mid 90s.
 
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(therealUT @ Jun 29 said:
THE ATTACK AGAINST THE KURDS IN 1988 WAS HALABJA

Saddam used chemical warfare against the Shiites to quell the revolt that we inspired at the end of the Gulf War. He also used chemical warfare attacks against the Kurds in the mid 90s.

Did he? Where is proof of that? I have never heard of that nor seen any proof of that. And actually, the charges of using chemical weapons ARE on their use in the 80's. The current trial right now is only focusing on the Dujail incident. But the other charges will no doubt come soon....providing we can protect his lawyers.
 
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(therealUT @ Jun 29 said:
Spoken with plenty of operators in 5th Group about this, and the consensus (from commanders down,) is that if we pulled our forces off the DMZ, the South Korean military would move across and within 6 months time control the whole peninsula.
This is just a side story, but my ex wife had an uncle who recently passed but once told me...he was a 30 cal machine gunner on the Chosen resovior. He had a metal plate in his forehead at the result of a grenade going of at the muzzle of his gun. He said of the Chinese....they told us the Chinese were all atheists that did'nt believe in God. They believed in something, because when they decided to attack...thay charged in hordes and kept coming, and kept coming.
 
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#17
Doing some research on Operation Just Cause, and came across something interesting.

Many people claim that torture does not work. However, we had a CIA operative working in Panama in the '80s, who after 8 months of being detained, malnurished, beaten, and sleep deprived by the PDF (Panama Defense Force,) he "eventually succumbed and admitted his involvement in the underground radio operation."

If an operative trained by the United States Central Intelligence Agency breaks down due to harsh enough conditions, don't you believe that many combatants who are not privy to the amount of psychological analysis and training that our special agents and operatives are, are also going to break down and give up vital information?
 
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#18
How different would the Civil War been if the Confederate Capital was located in Birmingham, Alabama?
 
#20
#20
Word to the wise, don't fall asleep watching the military channel. You have some crazy dreams.. :blink:
 
#22
#22
I can't remember everything in my dream right now, but it was pretty intense. I woke up with a sweat. :lol: .
 
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#24
(OrangeEmpire @ Jul 26 said:
:blink: Did you get those evil republicans in concentration camps? :blink:

All I remember is that I had a better gun than most, so it must have been a WW2 show or something...
 
#25
#25
Besides, the past few days in this forum has helped reinforce what I suspected, I don't dislike all Republicans, just a certain kind...
 

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