Outdoor Hardscape/Fire Pit Help Needed

#1
kiddiedoc

kiddiedoc

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#1
Here's the situation: we had our great yard guys build us a natural stone fire pit and surrounding patio, which they said they could do. There is a bit of a language barrier, so it was difficult to communicate our exact desires. Anyway, it came out looking great, but when I looked at it closely today, I noticed that the sawed stones that comprise the cylinder and the capstones are not mortared together. They had, I discovered, tried to use some type of construction adhesive on the capstones only, which did not bond.

Could anyone help me figure out the best way to secure the cylinder and capstones? Mortar of some type? Will it have to be disassembled? Would it be best to install a metal ring inside, as well? If so, what type of metal?

I firmly believe that they will fix it to our specifications, I just need to know EXACTLY what to tell them. Pic below.
 

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#2
#2
Guy that did our stuff used an adhesive too for our capstones. He said make sure it's where you want it because it'll never come up without breaking the block. He left the tube I'll see if I can find it. I think it was loctite and a lighter brown color.
 
#3
#3
Metal ring shouldn't be necessary. I was told that the inside should be lined with fire brick. We poured a stamped concrete patio and left circle in the middle. They are supposed to come back this fall and put the raised section around it as well as build me an outdoor kitchen.

As to the construction adhesive Dancing is talking about, if it's Loctite it's probably PL Premium. I used a ton of it and it is by far the best construction adhesive I've ever used. Home Depot has it and I think Lowe's does as well. I've used it to secure landscape bricks as well as loose bricks on steps and it has never failed.
 
#4
#4
First and foremost I would line the inside with fire brick. Also for easier cleaning out after a fire if this is not a propane or gas pit I would find a solid metal concave moon with handles to put in the bottom that will lift out easily to discard ashes.

The fire brick will protect your stone walls that isn't rated for high temps and keep it from cracking. Mortar should not be used in a firepit as it will contract and expand because of the high temp and turn loose and crack. As long as the construction adhesive is exterior rated it should be fine.
 
#5
#5
Orange_Vol1321 said:
First and foremost I would line the inside with fire brick. Also for easier cleaning out after a fire if this is not a propane or gas pit I would find a solid metal concave moon with handles to put in the bottom that will lift out easily to discard ashes.

The fire brick will protect your stone walls that isn't rated for high temps and keep it from cracking. Mortar should not be used in a firepit as it will contract and expand because of the high temp and turn loose and crack. As long as the construction adhesive is exterior rated it should be fine.
Click to expand...

I thought they made a high temperature mortar just for stuff like this?
 
#6
#6
Do you guys think I should use adhesive on the 2 layers of sawed stones or just let their weight hold them in place? I really want the capstones to stay still (propping up feet, sitting on it, etc). Also, I want to make sure it wont emit dangerous fumes when heated.

Loctite 10 fl.-oz. PL 500 VOC Landscape Block Adhesive-1683231 - The Home Depot

If I line with firebrick, does it need adhesive too? Or, just wedge them side by side in an upright position? Do these look right?

US Stove Firebrick Universal Fit (6-Pack)-FBP6E - The Home Depot
 
#8
#8
kiddiedoc said:
Do you guys think I should use adhesive on the 2 layers of sawed stones or just let their weight hold them in place? I really want the capstones to stay still (propping up feet, sitting on it, etc). Also, I want to make sure it wont emit dangerous fumes when heated.

Loctite 10 fl.-oz. PL 500 VOC Landscape Block Adhesive-1683231 - The Home Depot

If I line with firebrick, does it need adhesive too? Or, just wedge them side by side in an upright position? Do these look right?

US Stove Firebrick Universal Fit (6-Pack)-FBP6E - The Home Depot
Click to expand...

Doc, if it was mine I would clean all the adhesive off and use the cement that home depot has I will attach in the next post in a picture. You never know you might want to throw a grate over it for a quick hot dog outside or smores at night. Wouldn't be good to do with the adhesive or to breathe.

For the firebrick I would also "butter" the back of those with this cement and press in place against the inside wall as you stand them up in the circle. The last one could possibly need cut depending on the circumference.
 
#10
#10
InVOLuntary said:
Maybe that's what I'm thinking of.
Click to expand...

Well you weren't wrong. Masons would mix fireclay with mortar to do fireplaces but it would eventually crack. They basically mixed their recipe they preferred on the job site.

Doc the cement Home depot shows for the firebrick says it will soften if it gets wet. Not what you need and it outside. Let me keep looking.
 
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#11
#11
If I was you Doc I would go to your local General Shale brickyard or equivalent depending on where you live and ask them for a tub of Refractory Cement that will hold up to outside weather. I don't like any of the reviews of the big box store refractory cements.

Dry fit your firebrick in place and adjust the joints and you should be able to find the correct spacing and not have to cut the last one.

Make sure after setting them in place with the cement they are where you want them. The cement reads like it starts setting up pretty quickly.
 
#12
#12
I think he could set a fire in that pit and be perfectly fine. He could paint the inside edge of the pit black with high temp spray and it would accent the fire. It'll eventually turn black anyway.
 
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#13
#13
Here is ours........It is gas, has three rings just under the colored glass, all three rings have the gas holes facing the center so the fire is aimed inward. It creates a fantastic "fire spiral" when there is a slight wind to lift the flames.

Our blocks are just stacked with no adhesive.
 

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#15
#15
General Shale has fire brick but no high heat mortar. I really think mortar would be ideal as I'd like to level some of the stones a bit.

Coug, you wouldn't worry about the stones breaking if I don't add bricks?
 
#16
#16
doc, I can't help you with the adhesive to use...my handy man skills consist of calling a contractor...I would say if your working on it, or having work done, I would add a gas line, if it doesn't already have one
 
#19
#19
vol_in_ar said:
doc, I can't help you with the adhesive to use...my handy man skills consist of calling a contractor...I would say if your working on it, or having work done, I would add a gas line, if it doesn't already have one
Click to expand...

I thought about it, as there is one nearby, but I decided to stick with the natural theme. Nothing like a real campfire.
 
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#20
#20
I am a brickmason. Have built hundreds of chimneys, freestanding and standard. There is no special mortar. Standard mortar, "masonry cement type S" is what the firebox in every living room fireplace in america is built with. If you buy the ready mixed crap from lowes or home depot, buy a bag of Portland cement to mix with it about 10 parts Portland to 1 part ready mix. The cheap bastages.put too much sand and not enough Portland in the ready mix stuff. If you make your own, use 25 to 30 heaping shovels of sand to each 80lb bag of type S mortar. Type S us all you need to lay Brick, block, or real stone regardless of the application. Hope this helps
Cheers.
 
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#21
#21
Thanks for the help guys.

I went out and scraped the glue. I also repositioned the stones and did a little chiseling to level. I washed and scrubbed the surfaces of the capstones and the top of the side stones. Going to HD tomorrow and will find some good landscape/stone adhesive. If it doesn't hold, I can always redo it next season, but I don't feel like rebuilding the whole thing with mortar.

I really don't think it will get hot enough to break the stones, but we'll see. I just want to relax by the fire watching football and strumming the guitar!

Will report back.
 
#22
#22
marcusluvsvols said:
I am a brickmason. Have built hundreds of chimneys, freestanding and standard. There is no special mortar. Standard mortar, "masonry cement type S" is what the firebox in every living room fireplace in america is built with. If you buy the ready mixed crap from lowes or home depot, buy a bag of Portland cement to mix with it about 10 parts Portland to 1 part ready mix. The cheap bastages.put too much sand and not enough Portland in the ready mix stuff. If you make your own, use 25 to 30 heaping shovels of sand to each 80lb bag of type S mortar. Type S us all you need to lay Brick, block, or real stone regardless of the application. Hope this helps
Cheers.
Click to expand...

I'm in the process of building a fire pit outside. I intended on using brick. Will it fracture due to heat? Everything I have read on net says that I should be fine. I want to dry stack & use adhesive/mortar at the top. What do you think? Are Fire Bricks necessary?
I have my pit dug, & have a center drain. I plan on putting rock on bottom & little amount of sand.
 
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#24
#24
I've built a few. I have never used fire brick unless you just want the look. I prefer to lay the block with gaps in between them (but still mitered) to allow air to flow to the flame. Clean the joints of fallen mortar to make it look clean. I then lay a cap stone or roll lock brick on the cap to finish off the top. I have gone back and rubbed the CMU with mortar or Meadows patch to achieve a stucco type look which turns out great!

People have been making pits for years out of block block at any rednecks back yard. Use it.... It works fine and can be done in a very nice and architecturally pleasing well which saves cash for more important things like the outdoor tv setup.
 
#25
#25
barknoxbrawler said:
I've built a few. I have never used fire brick unless you just want the look. I prefer to lay the block with gaps in between them (but still mitered) to allow air to flow to the flame. Clean the joints of fallen mortar to make it look clean. I then lay a cap stone or roll lock brick on the cap to finish off the top. I have gone back and rubbed the CMU with mortar or Meadows patch to achieve a stucco type look which turns out great!

People have been making pits for years out of block block at any rednecks back yard. Use it.... It works fine and can be done in a very nice and architecturally pleasing well which saves cash for more important things like the outdoor tv setup.
Click to expand...
This. You can dry stack the block and lay the cap with mortar. The cap essentially becomes one solid,circular piece, locking the whole thing in place. You can also lay the sides with mortar if desired. Mortar withstands fire as long as the joints are full. Chimneys can be hollow as long as the flue is laid with Mortar and it has 4inches solid masonry laid around the flue liner itself within the chimney. I have seen many masons dry stack thousands od Brick inside chimneys just to pad their Brick count. It is basically stealing. Other than the 4 inches around the flue liner, you can use block in a chimney, or even have it hollow where masonry is not structurally necessary ( like at the shoulders or cap). Hope this helps. There are many bricklayers who cannot build a firebox or a chimney properly. It requires a good deal more experience than a foundation or veneer.
 
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