Past vs. Present....

[jakez4ut]

as the "newbie" title dictates, i have been reading some of the posts and seeing what kind of things are going on and what various opinions etc...are out there, and just from what i've read today, there seems to be a lot going back and forth about what happened 10, 20 years ago vs. what has happened over the past 5-10 years....all in an effort in determining are we slipping, or is this an abberation?

I don't pretend to have the answers, because as most of you have already shown, statistics can be spun anyway you want to, it just depends on the audience...

but one thing that stuck out to me during the Fulmer era that hasn't been there this year, is the lack of improvement.

Every year in the 90's, we'd play UF early and lose...season's over right? then by the time we'd play UGA we'd be world beaters once again, all wishing we could play UF later in the year...and 01, we got that chance, and low and behold, the one time we did play them late, we got 'em. Whoda thunk it!! Point is, we got better as the season went along...and this year has been a huge departure from that concept, we've stayed the same and gotten worse in the process...

but then a year like this comes a long, and it starts kind of familiar like...come out a little sloppy in home opener, and don't play to what we think is our ability level....but that's ok, they'll work it out before UF, we have two weeks, right?

WRONG...more of the same but still, it was at UF, and we knew that they were as capable of beating us as we were of beating them. But still, it's early, they'll fix this...

WRONG again, at least for one half...amazing what a win does for the soul!! Finally some momentum, surely we can build off that, we'll get it all put together next week against a team that lost to freakin' Vandy, right?

WRONG, we did win, but we looked around and thought, OK...it's a trap game, huge win last week, UGA coming to town, sure, i'll buy that...right?

WRONG...UGA gave us a clinic on Special Teams and by the end of that game, each and every one of us were thinking, uh oh! what gives? where's this #3 team in the nation at? We're 2 down in the East? are you kidding me?

NO...then a bit of confidence going in to Bama...we own them! they lost their biggest play maker, our D is too good.
And they were except for one play. How do you lose a game 6 to freakin' 3?? with two possesions inside the 10? Oh yeah, fumbles, almost forgot.

Well, no worries, in comes USC, we hate spurrier, and this team of vagabons is in for it...right?

WRONG, despite their best efforts to lose the game, somehow they accidentaly beat us in Knoxville for the first time EVER.

Now the wheels have come off...no way we can beat ND, and even if we do, does it matter?
Dont have to worry about answering that question anymore...


and here we are. showing no signs of life. And everyone has an opinion on it, and we're all right when you think about it. We all see the same and different things in each game that cause us to lose, or rather prevent us from winning, i mean face it, really the only team to beat Tennessee this year is Tennessee. and that's the frustrating part. NO one has just lined up and beat us silly. It's been one play here, one play there, a penalty, dropped ball, poor throw, or turnover.

My advise to the coaching staff:

TAKE CARE OF THE SMALL SH__ AND BIG SH__ WON'T HAPPEN.

GO VOLS.

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by jakez4ut@Nov 9, 2005 4:19 PM
I don't pretend to have the answers, because as most of you have already shown, statistics can be spun anyway you want to, it just depends on the audience...

but one thing that stuck out to me during the Fulmer era that hasn't been there this year, is the lack of improvement.

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Not a bad post. But I am not in the camp of "we always got better at the end of the year". I just think Spurrier owned Fulmer mentally and from a football IQ perspective. After that, in those days, we were just so much better than everyone else that it appeared we got better. Also, i think we played better because it was someone other than FL and we weren't mind-f___ed.

 

[Lexvol]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 9, 2005 4:43 PM
Not a bad post.  But I am not in the camp of "we always got better at the end of the year".  I just think Spurrier owned Fulmer mentally and from a football IQ perspective.  After that, in those days, we were just so much better than everyone else that it appeared we got better.  Also, i think we played better because it was someone other than FL and we weren't mind-f___ed.

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Maybe improvement is not the right word. Most years, they did seem to gel a little more as the season went on, but UT was ,much more talented everyone else. No matter how good they were I always expected a brain fart somewhere whether it was Memphis in 96, Arkansas in 98 or LSU in 2002.

I do agree that the details are haunting this team, and have haunted the team during CPF's tenure. This year has put the spotlight on that fact.

CPF should never talk NC again. Instead he should hark on the need for constant improvement. How do you improve? Pay attention and cut down on the repetitive mistakes ala intentional groundings, motion penalties, fumbles, special teams mistakes, and poor rout running and catching.

 

[jakez4ut]

no, your both right, and wrong...i think we did show improvement as each of those years went along, and with those brain fa__ts a long the way, well, i think those are examples of why most of us have a hard time dealing with Phill for a long time. I hated him in the 90's for that very reason. He frustrated me to no end. All you ever saw was him standing there clapping his hands and smacking kids on the butt after each play, good or bad. Drove me crazy, and still does.

but, it wasn't like we were beating St. Mary's school for the Blind after UF either...we beat some pretty good UGA teams along the way, some good Bama teams etc...were we more talented, yes, but that is debatable, especially if you look at the amount of talent UGA put in the NFL over the same time period...while we had more, they weren't exactly baren of talent...Hines Ward, Rober Edwards, Terrell Davis, Champ Bailey to name a few...

but i do see your point...is it enough to say you beat UGA 9 straight years when they were down? is it enough to say you dominated Bama over the past decade while most of that was on probation? We never beat either one of those teams while on top, right? So as a UT fan, i guess we just have to feel lucky that we got to play against the likes of Mike Dubose, Dennis Franchione, Ray Goff, and Jim Donnan...We never fared too well against what is perceived to be the better coaches...Spurrier, Richt, Saban, Tubberville...

Oh well, you really can't win for losin' huh?

 

[CSpindizzy]

Well you'd hope the mindset of coaches develops as the players and season develops. Fulmer & Co. seem to remain consistent in gameplan year after year. Spurrier, as the student of Sun Tsu he is, adapts and overcomes as the season progresses. He develops faster than the players do. That goes hand in hand with the comments about the coaching IQ here.

 

[jakez4ut]

i understand that, it just kind of ticks me off that he gets no credit whatsoever....and i'm not even putting him in the same category as a Steve Spurrier...i think he's proven many, many times he's a better coach than Fulmer...

My thing is that we have accomplished a lot under him, and while i don't pretend to just love everything he does, or has done for that matter, doesn't mean he should just get written off as stupid. And I'm also not saying that Fulmer shouldn't be held accountable for this debacle either, but he does deserve the right to try and fix it. now, next year, if we see more of the same, and this new OC hire is a flop, then, after next year, i think then you can go back and say, maybe it's time for some changes around here. Until then...

No one questions his recruiting ability, and you have to at least admit that if not for that quality, we wouldn't have enjoyed near the success we have over the past 14 years...And you could point to the years we've struggled, as is the case this year, as years where you find out that he may not be the best "coach" out there....He's not AWFUL, he's just tough to embrace when you compare him to the Spurrier's, Richt's, and Saban's of the world. His winning % gets him a lot of praise, and it should...he's up there with the Bowdens and Paternos of the world, but i don't anyone would think he's as quality of a "coach" as they are, and i wouldn't argue it either.

Bottom line is, when you talk about Fulmer, he's reactionary, he responds to negativity well. he doesn't prepare well. And that's been proven over and over again in his career. Look at the following year after a bad year, the next game after a loss...not very often he repeats the bad. Problem is that we have to go thru the bad sometimes to get to the good stuff.

SO you take the good with the bad...the ones that have both and do it well are rare. Spurrier isn't the greates recruiter, look at the talent level he had while at UF...no where near as many NFL Gators as there are NFL Vols...which again points to our coaching of said talent vs. Spurrier's coaching of his "less" talented groups. And we know how that worked out don't we?

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by jakez4ut@Nov 9, 2005 5:53 PM
No one questions his recruiting ability, and you have to at least admit that if not for that quality, we wouldn't have enjoyed near the success we have over the past 14 years...And you could point to the years we've struggled, as is the case this year, as years where you find out that he may not be the best "coach" out there....He's not AWFUL, he's just tough to embrace when you compare him to the Spurrier's, Richt's, and Saban's of the world.  His winning % gets him a lot of praise, and it should...he's up there with the Bowdens and Paternos of the world, but i don't anyone would think he's as quality of a "coach" as they are, and i wouldn't argue it either.

Bottom line is, when you talk about Fulmer, he's reactionary , he responds to negativity well.  he doesn't prepare well.  And that's been proven over and over again in his career.  Look at the following year after a bad year, the next game after a loss...not very often he repeats the bad.  Problem is that we have to go thru the bad sometimes to get to the good stuff.

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That's one of the best assessments of Fulmer I've seen on here. The post is very good, but especially the reactionary part. I've always thought that was true, and it even holds true in games. They have traditionally been slow to make adjustments until after an entire game was played, i.e. Alex Brown '99.

 

[Lexvol]

Perhaps that does sum things up pretty well. To take it a step further, more intelligent coaches think three steps ahead of everyone else, anticipating the situation and the details involved. Maybe that is beyond the ability of the coaching staff.

There is no doubt that anticipation is sign of higher intelligence.

 

[volbreaker]

This is a great post!! My concern about giving him the right to fix it could take away the one positive(recruiting) that we consistently do well.
Did anyone sit there watching the Vandy coach going Off at the end of the Florida game and think"son-of-a-bitch...I'd love love to see some of that on our sidelines". I know all of you who were watching thought something similar. EMOTION!!!...PLEASE!!! I don't care if it's taking up for our players against a crappy call or holding someone accountable or, for that matter, praise. We're so starved for proper and well placed emotion of any kind other than than the "hand-clap"and grimmace that many are willing to annoint Trooper as the OC. I'm not sure exactly what all of the changes are that need to occur, but I know there are PLENTY. AS LEXVOL wrote on another post " I don't have to be a chef to know that the food sucks". I also know that in business I don't let my people take the knife for me. CPF has shown me during this tough time the same repulsive tendancies that are there during the good times and it's really starting to make me sick. No wonder all of the teams opposing fans hate us so bad. If your going to call the rat-cheating tide the rat-cheating bastards they are then stand up at media days like Spurrier did and say "hell yeah I turned 'um in..they are cheating". Don't sneak around consorting with the RIDICULOUS NCAA in the shadows. I could go on and on about all of the traits that have bothered me for a longtime, but have now reached my tolernce thresh hold and are pinching it. REMOVE THE FULMER FILTER and give us the character and soul that the school and it's lifelong fans deserve.

 

[Lexvol]

Originally posted by volbreaker@Nov 9, 2005 6:46 PM
This is a great post!! My concern about giving him the right to fix it could take away the one positive(recruiting) that we consistently do well.
Did anyone sit there watching the Vandy coach going Off at the end of the Florida game and think"son-of-a-bitch...I'd love love to see some of that on our sidelines". I know all of you who were watching thought something similar. EMOTION!!!...PLEASE!!! I don't care if it's taking up for our players against a crappy call or holding someone accountable or, for that matter, praise. We're so starved for proper and well placed emotion of any kind other than than the "hand-clap"and grimmace that many are willing to annoint Trooper as the OC. I'm not sure exactly what all of the changes are that need to occur, but I know there are PLENTY. AS LEXVOL wrote on another post " I don't have to be a chef to know that the food sucks". I also know that in business I don't let my people take the knife for me. CPF has shown me during this tough time the same repulsive tendancies that are there during the good times and it's really starting to make me sick. No wonder all of the teams opposing fans hate us so bad. If your going to call the rat-cheating tide the rat-cheating bastards they are then stand up at media days like Spurrier did and say "hell yeah I turned 'um in..they are cheating". Don't sneak around consorting with the RIDICULOUS NCAA in the shadows. I could go on and on about all of the traits that have bothered me for a longtime, but have now reached my tolernce thresh hold and are pinching it. REMOVE THE FULMER FILTER and give us the character and soul that the school and it's lifelong fans deserve.

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Correct. Those behaviors combined with coach hires and game planning perfectly describe the tendencies of a proactive coach (Spurrier) and a reactive coach. :yahoo:

 

[jakez4ut]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 9, 2005 7:01 PM
That's one of the best assessments of Fulmer I've seen on here.  The post is very good, but especially the reactionary part.  I've always thought that was true, and it even holds true in games.  They have traditionally been slow to make adjustments until after an entire game was played, i.e. Alex Brown '99.

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you could even look at the UGA game a couple of years ago when we got killed...we cam out in the no huddle in the 2nd half and actually moved the ball, but again, it was purely reactionary...that's the thing that always bothered me about him. We'd wait til something was exposed, and then, go "well i guess that didn't work, let's do it this way"

Also think back to Jamal Lewis in '97...we had no running game against Florida that year and, shocker, lost...a week later against Ole Miss, this kid wearing No. 31 comes in and we're all like, what? where was he last week? reply: Jamal hadn't picked up the pass blocking schemes yet.

Really? but this week he has? hm. things like that have bothered the heck out of me for years.

 

[jakez4ut]

but again, i'll say it...there are 90 to 100 other schools that would trade with us no questions asked. Despite all this stuff, we have had a great run since 1990. Living here in Charlotte, middle of ACC hell, you get a little bit of appreciation for what we have vs. some of these programs out here...UNC, Clemson, NCSU, UVA would all love to be able to boast the records and years we have had in that time frame, and if they thought Fulmer could give it to them, they'd take him in a second.

So temper my comments with that...still not saying fire him...not yet anyway...let's see how the rest of this year pans out, and then next year...after that, we'll have a very good answer as to whether or not this guy is the coach some people think he is. He's earned that much.

 

[sectionb1234]

These post are great, good points by jakez4ut, along with others. I think in the past, because of the wins, we have fallen into the security of a winning season. We have always felt good going into this time of the year. Our main topic this time of year was, which bowl and who we would play.This is the first time since 1988 that we don't fair very well. Not up to our standards for a history rich program. I hope like alot of you that there is a staff shakeup after the season. If Fulmer is clueless on what to do, hear's an idea, Pick up the phone call Peyton and ask for some advise on who in the NFL would have interest in being our OC.

 

[IBleedOrange24/7]

Peyton called, said he was busy calling plays in Indy, Marvin says hey :hi: :biggrin2:

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by jakez4ut@Nov 9, 2005 8:05 PM
Also think back to Jamal Lewis in '97...we had no running game against Florida that year and, shocker, lost...a week later against Ole Miss, this kid wearing No. 31 comes in and we're all like, what?  where was he last week?  reply:  Jamal hadn't picked up the pass blocking schemes yet. 

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I have complained and complained about the handling of Jamal in '97. Maybe you and I are drinking the same koolaid, but I never bought why they didn't play him against FL.

Magically, he was ready to run through MISS and UGA the next couple of weeks. This was another classic example of our staff making excuses for themselves after it's clear to the entire world they messed up; but their egos are so fragile that they never give in.

 

[cibai]

Two words to address your theory of each season getting better:

PEACH BOWL

 

[jakez4ut]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 10, 2005 10:20 AM
I have complained and complained about the handling of Jamal in '97.  Maybe you and I are drinking the same koolaid, but I never bought why they didn't play him against FL.

Magically, he was ready to run through MISS and UGA the next couple of weeks.  This was another classic example of our staff making excuses for themselves after it's clear to the entire world they messed up; but their egos are so fragile that they never give in.

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yeah, i never understood that. But again, another example of REACTING to a situation...we coulnd't do diddly against UF that year, the next game, well what do you know? Let's try that #31 this week, he couldn't hurt? And what happened? we won out and played in the "National Title" game against Nebraska... We got better!! Seriously we did, but it took "learning another lesson" to get to that point.

Talent developing has always stuck in my craw at this program...David Martin...no one knew who this guy was until he was a senior, and when he finally did get playing time, i thought he was a freshman, only to be dashed to find out he was a senior!!! Now a pretty darn good TE for the Packers.

YOu could make a similar argument for Eric Parker...

but oh well, we got our 10 wins, won a couple of SEC titles and and an NC along the way, so it's not like it was terrible...and that's what we have to remind ourselves about.

Now while i'm surely not optimistic about next year at all, i still wouldn't be suprised if we came out and won 9 games or more next year either. And by then, we'll all be singing the praises of what a turnaround Phil and Co. did...and rightfully so. but we'll never forget this year.... :banghead:

 

[gonygonygo]

We should wait until Peyton Manning retires and let him join UT's coaching staff. Wouldn't that be great?!

 

[gonygonygo]

He could be QB's coach.

 

[gonygonygo]

I told you guys that I always come up with the best ideas!

 

[jakez4ut]

I don't think Peyton has the patience to work with college qb's...maybe in the pro's, but doubtful...he'll be like Dan Marino and talk about football with no pressure and all $$. He ain't stupid.