Standardized Testing/NCLB

[GASOUTHERNVOL]

No child left behind mandates that schools must adhere to certain tests and policies. However, the problem is that the federal government doesnt fund most of these mandates. In special education, the gov is supposed to fund 40% of special education, however as of 2006 only 14% was funded leaving school systems over burdened and underfunded which has led to many cutbacks etc. What do yall propose as a solution for our education problem. (remember the 10th ammendment reserves all powers not listed in the consititution are given to the state)

 

[UT IE 95]

Just another failure of the outgoing administration.

My personal opinion is to privatize education completely. Use the federal and state budgets today and take bids from enterprising business people to operate school districts. Turn it into a business and not the screwed up system it has become.

 

[KB5252]

Just another failure of the outgoing administration.


Our schools were failing long before Bush was in office. This was an attempt to fix the situation. Why not look at the reasons NCLB was a failure? Lack of funding was just the tip of the iceberg IMO.


My personal opinion is to privatize education completely. Use the federal and state budgets today and take bids from enterprising business people to operate school districts. Turn it into a business and not the screwed up system it has become.

What do you think the unions reaction would be?

Don't you think the teachers union would be a terrible obstacle?

 

[GASOUTHERNVOL]

What do you think the unions reaction would be?

Don't you think the teachers union would be a terrible obstacle?

well in some states teachers cant unionize. I know for a fact you cant in Georgia. My idea for fixing the problem is taking large corporations, offer them some tax incintives to invest in local school systems to help alleviate some of the financial burderns. Especially in many rural areas. The schools would get the funding they need, and the companies would get GREAT publicity...

 

[KB5252]

well in some states teachers cant unionize. I know for a fact you cant in Georgia. My idea for fixing the problem is taking large corporations, offer them some tax incintives to invest in local school systems to help alleviate some of the financial burderns. Especially in many rural areas. The schools would get the funding they need, and the companies would get GREAT publicity...

It would have to be successfully done somewhere first, then others would take a look.

The teachers union lobby would be a terrible impediment though on a national level.

 

[GASOUTHERNVOL]

It would have to be successfully done somewhere first, then others would take a look.

The teachers union lobby would be a terrible impediment though on a national level.

the problem is education really is something that is ran by the state. The only way the federal government gets involved is that they threaten to pull funding from other projects IE roads

 

[KB5252]

the problem is education really is something that is ran by the state. The only way the federal government gets involved is that they threaten to pull funding from other projects IE roads

Yes but even on the local level the teachers union has a strong lobby. In those areas where they are unionized they would oppose this with all they had. I'm just pointing out it could happen in some areas but would not be allowed to happen in others. It would get a ton of resistance from the teachers across the board though.

 

[BigPapaVol]

how does one measure that education is only funded at 14%. Sounds like a teachers' lobby or teachers' union garbage number.

 

[GASOUTHERNVOL]

im not calling for complete privitization of schools. I think inner city schools would suffer the worst. Im just calling for more private investment. I am a teacher, and im in a well off school, howver there are still things we need, and we are lacking in some technology and important tools to help our students suceed. I mean beacuse of budget cuts our art class was cut out. Something has to be done...

 

[superdave1984]

The problem lies in the "dumbing down" of the educational system. The thought was that since too many kids were failing, that the curriculum was too hard. I do not agree with this philosophy. You don't pass, you don't go to the next grade. There is little, if any, discipline in schools. Teachers are handcuffed by the people who think that kids should be allowed to express their individuality no matter what. They don't teach the material, they teach how to do well on the standardized tests. And from what I have seen of my kids' work, tests are all multiple choice with half the choices being obviously wrong. We need to challenge kids more while keeping them interested. Just having all your kids pass does not make a successful system.

 

[MG1968]

end the education of illegal immigrants' children. No teacher should be forced to slow down his or her instruction because the non-English speaking child of a criminal alien shows up in class.

 

[VolByBirth]

The issue with education has little to do with money and everything to do with desire. Said another way, it's not supply-side, it's demand-side.

We have roughly $600B going into education, which is more than the rest of the developed world.

 

[allvol123]

Abolish any federal funding of education, sounds like a great start to me.

 

[beergood]

First post here, be gentle...

NCLB...Federally mandated test, which makes curriculum federally mandated. Which, by proxy, will be teaching to the slowest child in the classroom, to insure the numbers to get the slice of the government pie.

My question is this...do you think some children need to be left behind? I do. Teachers need to spend their time developing students, not teaching to some arbritary test. Not every child can be a doctor, lawyer or accountant, regardless of what Mom and Dad think. And this runs the spectrum of rich and poor, black or white.

Several friends in the education field tend to agree with these statements. They have said as much themselves. And I am certainly a case in point, having flunked out of college myself, only to turn it around as a skilled tradesman. The world needs electricians, machinists, ditch diggers and McDonald's employees. Unfortunately, I think NCLB places unnecessary emphasis on the student who has less to offer in terms of getting ready for college, or has less in the "smarts" department to be a success in higher education.

Flame away...

 

[volinbham]

Welcome to the board. Agree in principle that our education system is a lowest common denominator approach.

 

[jwells]

NCLB is a brainchild of both sides of the Aisle, created by folks who supposedly know what they're talking about. It's underfunded, and places to heavy a burden on standardized tests and the scores associated. Learning has taken a back-seat to "hitting the high points" (i.e. whatever the state deems important to learn) so that the kids can test well.

I see NCLB as a huge problem, but it pales in comparison to the belief that being able to bubble in on a ScanTron has much at all to do with actual learning. Add that to the ever-increasing breadth of information students are responsible for, and you get the main education idea now: Teaching to the Test.

It's not about money, really. You can throw money at anything and it won't do a damn thing. Just look at Obama's pet project in Chicago. MILLIONS wasted for no statistical improvement. It's about quality of educators, curriculum, and student motivation. Good teachers and a good curriculum are a must to teach everyone properly, but students must also WANT to learn. A kid that's sleeping or staring at the wall isn't going to do much in your class.

We need to scrap the current approach and get the focus on learning. We are in the tops of the World for our early-education (elementary school age) but we drop like a rock through middle and high school. It's stupid, but we just keep trying to tweak, rather than overhaul.

 

[jwells]

First post here, be gentle...

NCLB...Federally mandated test, which makes curriculum federally mandated. Which, by proxy, will be teaching to the slowest child in the classroom, to insure the numbers to get the slice of the government pie.

My question is this...do you think some children need to be left behind? I do. Teachers need to spend their time developing students, not teaching to some arbritary test. Not every child can be a doctor, lawyer or accountant, regardless of what Mom and Dad think. And this runs the spectrum of rich and poor, black or white.

Several friends in the education field tend to agree with these statements. They have said as much themselves. And I am certainly a case in point, having flunked out of college myself, only to turn it around as a skilled tradesman. The world needs electricians, machinists, ditch diggers and McDonald's employees. Unfortunately, I think NCLB places unnecessary emphasis on the student who has less to offer in terms of getting ready for college, or has less in the "smarts" department to be a success in higher education.

Flame away...

Memorization has taken over. Teaching is on the back burner, as far as all levels of government are concerned.

 

[volinbham]

As I understand it, there are some positive goals of NCLB:

1. Some standardization of curriculum to ensure all students get some basics of education (3 Rs)

2. A testing mechanism to assess learning outcomes/progress towards #1 above.

However, the downsides of teaching to the test, appealing to the lowest common denominator, gaming the system to get funding, etc. diminish the effect.

 

[615 Vol]

How does NCLB deal with schools that have a large number of Latino students that either don't speak English or know very little? My niece and nephew went to an elementary school in Nashville that had a large Latino population and no one could learn anything. The teachers had difficulty teaching the English speaking students by going back to help the Spanish speaking students and they weren't learning anything either. They are now in private school but it seems that problem would affect schools in certain areas from meeting the standards set by NCLB.

 

[beergood]

Relatives of mine in the UK have told me about their education system, and while it might have a socialist feel, it does seem to be a somewhat worthwhile talking point.

Between the ages of 12 and 15 (please don't quote me, as I am not absolutely sure) students are given an aptitude test to determine whether they go to university, or go to trade school.

What would you think about that? There are obviously some questions to be asked there, but we seperated the "high quality" student from the rest of the pack early on, would we be ahead of the game?

 

[therealUT]

Relatives of mine in the UK have told me about their education system, and while it might have a socialist feel, it does seem to be a somewhat worthwhile talking point.

Between the ages of 12 and 15 (please don't quote me, as I am not absolutely sure) students are given an aptitude test to determine whether they go to university, or go to trade school.

What would you think about that? There are obviously some questions to be asked there, but we seperated the "high quality" student from the rest of the pack early on, would we be ahead of the game?

Governmental determinism...

Maybe we should just separate the Alphas, Betas, Gammas, Deltas, and Epsilons as fertilized eggs prior to the Bokanovsky Process.

 

[MG1968]

How does NCLB deal with schools that have a large number of Latino students that either don't speak English or know very little? My niece and nephew went to an elementary school in Nashville that had a large Latino population and no one could learn anything. The teachers had difficulty teaching the English speaking students by going back to help the Spanish speaking students and they weren't learning anything either. They are now in private school but it seems that problem would affect schools in certain areas from meeting the standards set by NCLB.

See my first post in this thread. The children of illegal immigrants have no place in the schools their parents contribute no money to in the form of taxation.

Relatives of mine in the UK have told me about their education system, and while it might have a socialist feel, it does seem to be a somewhat worthwhile talking point.

Between the ages of 12 and 15 (please don't quote me, as I am not absolutely sure) students are given an aptitude test to determine whether they go to university, or go to trade school.

What would you think about that? There are obviously some questions to be asked there, but we seperated the "high quality" student from the rest of the pack early on, would we be ahead of the game?

terrible idea, especially since something similar naturally occurs here already. A kid who has an aptitude for mechanical work won't bother trying to get into Harvard Business and conversely, a kid with a gift for learning languages isn't going to want to go to Detroit Auto Diesel College.

 

[therealUT]

See my first post in this thread. The children of illegal immigrants have no place in the schools their parents contribute no money to in the form of taxation.

Incorrect. Schools receive the bulk of their funding at the local level. Therefore, illegal immigrants that pay sales taxes, property taxes, etc. actually contribute money.

Also, seeing as you believe that children of parents who contribute no money to the school system in the form of, I presume, income taxes, then that would mean that plenty of children whose parents fall below certain income levels should not be allowed to attend government schools.

You very well know my views on public schools, however, I am just pointing out where your justification is inherently flawed.

 

[MG1968]

I stand corrected. however, I will continue to maintain that children of illegal immigrants shouldn't be in public schools. At the very least, they shouldn't be mainstreamed until they are proficient in English.

 

[beergood]

Governmental determinism...

Maybe we should just separate the Alphas, Betas, Gammas, Deltas, and Epsilons as fertilized eggs prior to the Bokanovsky Process.

Interesting analogy. However, I think you might be misinterpreting what it is I am saying. Or I am just doing a terrible job of getting my thoughts out there. Which is probably the case.

And you are correct in the fact that kids that are inclined to strive to get into Harvard aren't going to be interested in taking a shop class, and the shop kids aren't real interested in pursuing an MBA. I think if you look in any high school you will find kids in college prep and AP classes doing what they need to do to succeed at the next level. Maybe not so much the college prep, but certainly the AP crowd. But if you look at these 2 groups, you will see that these aren't the kids that need to be taught according to governmental accordance. They can probably pass these tests by the time sophomore year ends.

The problem is what are we teaching to the rest of these students? My high school experience tells me it was next to nothing. I see people I went to school with riding the mulch truck on a regular basis. Do you think they were well served by taking Biology, Chemistry and 2 years of foreign language, or would they be better served by learning a valuable trade in those 4 years?

And I understand that determining who goes to which classes is a governmental can of worms...just throwing the idea out there...