Tea Party effect on both party's membership?

[JayVols]

First off, it is not my intention to bash any party/group. I would like to have a civil discussion on the question without degrading partisan finger pointing and attacks. No, 'but Bush did 'X' or 'yeah, but Obama did 'Y', please.

I read an article that discussed the issue of the Tea Party effect. It didn't go as far as what I would like to ask.

My question (it's long and run-onish, sorry): Will the Tea Party influence result in an all Republican to shift to the far right OR by some chance, could their influence encourage moderate Republicans to leave the party altogether and have, to a MUCH lesser degree, an effect akin to Reagan Democrats in the '80s pulling the Democrats away from the far left and more to the center?

I realize that, to some, it seems that there are no moderate Republicans, but they are out there.

 

[volinbham]

If they stuck to fiscal issues then any Rs they lost would be replaced by Is and maybe some Ds.

If they keep heading down a social path then they may deter some Rs but doubt Rs would stop being Rs. Would be less successful at attacting Is.

 

[JayVols]

If they stuck to fiscal issues then any Rs they lost would be replaced by Is and maybe some Ds.

If they keep heading down a social path then they may deter some Rs but doubt Rs would stop being Rs. Would be less successful at attacting Is.

That's mostly my thoughts, but evidence is mounting that it will not stick solely to fiscal policy. Could it cause a true split in the R party? I doubt it as it could be a death blow to the GOP as it exists.
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[sjt18]

First off, it is not my intention to bash any party/group. I would like to have a civil discussion on the question without degrading partisan finger pointing and attacks... My question (it's long and run-onish, sorry): Will the Tea Party influence result in an all Republican to shift to the far right

I thought you weren't interested in bashing or partisan attacks? This qualifier IS partisan. The TP represents the views of at least 40% of the country. They represent significantly more than that in their fiscal views. How is it not partisan to characterize them as "far right"?

OR by some chance, could their influence encourage moderate Republicans to leave the party altogether

I think that is a very real possibility... and a good thing.

and have, to a MUCH lesser degree, an effect akin to Reagan Democrats in the '80s pulling the Democrats away from the far left and more to the center?

Disagree that the Dems moved to the center because of the Reagan Dems. Most of those Dems or their kids moved to the GOP. The result was a much more "partisan" and leftist democratic party... and a much more militant approach by leftists in the media.

I realize that, to some, it seems that there are no moderate Republicans, but they are out there.

The Republican party has both Progressives who primarily make up its "country club" establishment and libertarian revolutionists driven by belief in originalist ideals. Many "moderate" Republicans are Progressives who just differ with Dem Progressives on the way society should be engineered by gov't. They do not disagree in principle that gov't should be powerful and rule the nation.

 

[sjt18]

That's mostly my thoughts, but evidence is mounting that it will not stick solely to fiscal policy. Could it cause a true split in the R party? I doubt it as it could be a death blow to the GOP as it exists.
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Realignment according to the actual political make up and beliefs of the country.... would NOT disfavor a conservative/libertarian GOP.

 

[JayVols]

I thought you weren't interested in bashing or partisan attacks? This qualifier IS partisan. The TP represents the views of at least 40% of the country. They represent significantly more than that in their fiscal views. How is it not partisan to characterize them as "far right"? I think that is a very real possibility... and a good thing. Disagree that the Dems moved to the center because of the Reagan Dems. Most of those Dems or their kids moved to the GOP. The result was a much more "partisan" and leftist democratic party... and a much more militant approach by leftists in the media.



The Republican party has both Progressives who primarily make up its "country club" establishment and libertarian revolutionists driven by belief in originalist ideals. Many "moderate" Republicans are Progressives who just differ with Dem Progressives on the way society should be engineered by gov't. They do not disagree in principle that gov't should be powerful and rule the nation.

If you consider calling the TP far right a partisan attack, it is impossible to have a discussion with you. Like clockwork you pull the 'that's partisan card'. I don't consider calling a good portion of the Dems far left as an attack. They are what they are. There was absolutely no malice intended my statement. You seem to look for the 'angle' in any observation/discussion and turn it into a partisan fight. You see imaginary boogeymen everywhere that don't exist.

Dude, I make a conscious effort to try to be a patient person on the board. I am rather satisfied that i succeed. I do my best to avoid personal attacks on others and respect their their views even if they are totally opposite from my own. You seem to thrive on finding something partisan or offensive in any statement not in lockstep with your own. I try my best to understand the views of others and then compare those views with my own in a constant effort to grow and learn as a person. You come across as having all the answers to anything, and it appears that you have no interest in challenging any of your beliefs on anything. I'm glad you feel you have it all figured out. Congrats. Most are not as fortunate as you though.

The smugness that I sense from you is very unappealing. I could be reading it wrong, but I have come to this conclusion through thoughtful consideration of many of your posts.. I feel that you have no interest in discussion. This is as big of a problem in our nation as anything we face. Despite my feelings on this matter, I truly wish you the best. Later.
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[JayVols]

Sjt, reread my post. I didn't say the Dems moved to the center in the 80s. I ASKED if that on the remote chance some Reps went to the Dems, would it pull the Dems away from the left towards the center.
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[n_huffhines]

A 2 party system ensures we have ****ty choices. Can you imagine what it would be like if we had a 2-car system? F150 or Caravan...choose America! I mean seriously, what % of America would say McCain or Obama was their #1 choice.

 

[NEO]

I personally hope we destroy the GOP and pull enough indies that we then topple the Dems too.

I personally hate you all equally.

You freakin "moderate" republicans are just weak azz democrats who dont want to be called democrats because of the area you represent.

Atleast with crazy leftist you know where you stand.

 

[sjt18]

If you consider calling the TP far right a partisan attack, it is impossible to have a discussion with you.

Define far right then. I really don't think that promoting a smaller gov't in agreement with over half the country to be "far right". I don't think advocating that we actually honor our Constitution as "law" is extreme in any respect.

There was absolutely no malice intended my statement.

Then I am sincerely sorry I took it that way. I still do not think it is accurate though. People are what they are.... not what they are characterized by their enemies. The TP is "right" but it is a mischaracterization to insenuate they are extreme. Perhaps I wouldn't be as sensitive about that if it weren't the recent Dem strategy to demonize these VERY mainstream conservatives.

You seem to look for the 'angle' in any observation/discussion and turn it into a partisan fight. You see imaginary boogeymen everywhere that don't exist.

No. Word mean things Jay.

Dude, I make a conscious effort to try to be a patient person on the board.

Dude, you don't think it is difficult to be patient with someone who won't even define what they mean by "progress" or "compromise"?

You seem to thrive on finding something partisan or offensive in any statement not in lockstep with your own.

No Jay. I try to state my case clearly so you or anyone else can take your best shot at it. Iron sharpens iron. If I am wrong I WANT you to prove it. I LIKE it when someone makes me think or challenges something that I have accepted without good reason.

I try my best to understand the views of others and then compare those views with my own in a constant effort to grow and learn as a person.

I don't want to offend you here but you don't quite come off that way. I know we all have blind spots to ourselves. It is difficult sometimes to convey attitude in a forum like this... but you seem to have pretty hardened limits regarding how you will allow yourself to be challenged.

You come across as having all the answers to anything, and it appears that you have no interest in challenging any of your beliefs on anything.

If I am undecided about something then I don't post about it. All I do when I am here is challenge my beliefs. That's the only reason I would come here and debate. If I am "right" or can rationally, consistently defend my position then it gives affirmation. If I can't... then maybe I need to reconsider or do more research. I have all but begged you to challenge my ideas and arguments. How many times have I asked you now to show me what "compromise" would look like?

I'm glad you feel you have it all figured out. Congrats. Most are not as fortunate as you though.

that is a pretty condescending remark coming from someone criticizing someone else for being too certain.

The smugness that I sense from you is very unappealing. I could be reading it wrong, but I have come to this conclusion through thoughtful consideration of many of your posts.

I am truly sorry you feel that way because I really do like you as much as I know you. I honestly think you have misread me..

I feel that you have no interest in discussion.

Then why would I try to prompt you to discuss things deeper? Why would I challenge your assumptions and ask you to challenge mine? Why would I ask you questions at all? I am not generally being rhetorical. If you can prove my ideas wrong... I want your best shot.

This is as big of a problem in our nation as anything we face.

I honestly think the BIGGER problem is people who listen to "arguments" without considering the end that each side has in mind. The stakes are much higher than an academic debate. Pretty speeches and slick marketing may impress people but the more important thing is where their plans will take us.

We have "swing" voters who have shift back and forth. They don't seem to care much what the ultimate vision is... they vote on whether they are currently "happy" or if someone runs a good campaign or is good looking or sounds "presidential". IMHO, those people are bigger problems than hardcore socialists. The socialist knows what he is voting for.

Despite my feelings on this matter, I truly wish you the best. Later.
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You too. I meant no harm or offense. I do tend to be aggressive in presenting or defending ideas. But contrary to what you might think, I am challenging what I believe. I am open minded to change. My bar isn't low... but I have changed opinions because of discussions here.

 

[sjt18]

Sjt, reread my post. I didn't say the Dems moved to the center in the 80s. I ASKED if that on the remote chance some Reps went to the Dems, would it pull the Dems away from the left towards the center.
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That's a good question. I don't think it would. I think new ideas would come into play. But the people who would (will) leave are already Progressives. They already believe in the power of gov't to do "good". They believe in the merit of gov't programs as a matter of principle.

What would you consider a "centering" of the Dems? More hospitality to pro-lifers? A return to a more "hawkish" stand on military or foreign policy?

 

[theutvolunteers]

When I only posted in the football forum I never thought of sjt as a partisan right winger. Think you make some good arguments over there, but agree with little over here.

 

[JayVols]

Define far right then. I really don't think that promoting a smaller gov't in agreement with over half the country to be "far right". I don't think advocating that we actually honor our Constitution as "law" is extreme in any respect. Then I am sincerely sorry I took it that way. I still do not think it is accurate though. People are what they are.... not what they are characterized by their enemies. The TP is "right" but it is a mischaracterization to insenuate they are extreme. Perhaps I wouldn't be as sensitive about that if it weren't the recent Dem strategy to demonize these VERY mainstream conservatives. No. Word mean things Jay.

Dude, you don't think it is difficult to be patient with someone who won't even define what they mean by "progress" or "compromise"? No Jay. I try to state my case clearly so you or anyone else can take your best shot at it. Iron sharpens iron. If I am wrong I WANT you to prove it. I LIKE it when someone makes me think or challenges something that I have accepted without good reason. I don't want to offend you here but you don't quite come off that way. I know we all have blind spots to ourselves. It is difficult sometimes to convey attitude in a forum like this... but you seem to have pretty hardened limits regarding how you will allow yourself to be challenged. If I am undecided about something then I don't post about it. All I do when I am here is challenge my beliefs. That's the only reason I would come here and debate. If I am "right" or can rationally, consistently defend my position then it gives affirmation. If I can't... then maybe I need to reconsider or do more research. I have all but begged you to challenge my ideas and arguments. How many times have I asked you now to show me what "compromise" would look like? that is a pretty condescending remark coming from someone criticizing someone else for being too certain.

I am truly sorry you feel that way because I really do like you as much as I know you. I honestly think you have misread me.. Then why would I try to prompt you to discuss things deeper? Why would I challenge your assumptions and ask you to challenge mine? Why would I ask you questions at all? I am not generally being rhetorical. If you can prove my ideas wrong... I want your best shot. I honestly think the BIGGER problem is people who listen to "arguments" without considering the end that each side has in mind. The stakes are much higher than an academic debate. Pretty speeches and slick marketing may impress people but the more important thing is where their plans will take us.

We have "swing" voters who have shift back and forth. They don't seem to care much what the ultimate vision is... they vote on whether they are currently "happy" or if someone runs a good campaign or is good looking or sounds "presidential". IMHO, those people are bigger problems than hardcore socialists. The socialist knows what he is voting for.

You too. I meant no harm or offense. I do tend to be aggressive in presenting or defending ideas. But contrary to what you might think, I am challenging what I believe. I am open minded to change. My bar isn't low... but I have changed opinions because of discussions here.

If things were taken out of context, that's fine. Tone and context is difficult to convey via the written word sometimes. We would probably get along fine if we met. I am working on specifics (doing my research) and will get back to you soon on the specifics you mentioned in the other thread to see if we could reach a compromise. I am not happy where our country is at just like you. I also have ideas where we would end up if we changed cold turkey so to speak. I really am not as liberal as you think... well compared to you, I might be Keith Olbermann. That's a joke. I have some left leaning beliefs, sure, on things based on life experiences, but they are by no means full blown liberal. I also have right leaning beliefs.

I am not here to 'win' anything. I am here to discuss a mutual interest and need. I hold no malice toward anyone, even the most hard core radicals. That's the beauty of the US.

I will get those proposals to you. I am VERY busy working and trying to raise 2 great little girls, but I will answer you, perhaps 1 point at a time for brevity's sake. Have a good one.
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[sjt18]

When I only posted in the football forum I never thought of sjt as a partisan right winger. Think you make some good arguments over there, but agree with little over here.

Don't insult me...

When most think of "right wingers" they think of Republicans. I don't like or trust most of them either. I am a committed libertarian. I believe in rights and freedom.

 

[sjt18]

Jay... I have read your posts and do not take you as a "liberal". I don't even think we are all that far apart in terms of what should happen next. I would probably take it further than you though...

There is NO way the country could tolerate a cold turkey 180 degree turn. I argue in absolutes but know that change takes time. Right now... the biggest thing is to throw the brakes and bring this freight train to a stop before spending runs us over the cliff. That's why I don't think the TP is very radical or extreme. All they are asking for is for gov't to have fiscal responsibility. They don't even have unanimity on how that should be accomplished.

For instance, I know that some TPer's strongly favor elimination of loop holes and special deals in the tax code. Most favor a code that would either reach the rich through their consumption (Fair Tax) or their income (Flat tax). I have yet to hear one say they think the current system is OK.

I am very, very certain that we could sit and talk with great respect and civility. You would by no stretch be the most radical person I have done that with...

 

[KiffinKiller]

I personally hope we destroy the GOP and pull enough indies that we then topple the Dems too.

I personally hate you all equally.

You freakin "moderate" republicans are just weak azz democrats who dont want to be called democrats because of the area you represent.

Atleast with crazy leftist you know where you stand.

Moderate republicans are weak ass democrats? News to me.

 

[volinbham]

Moderate republicans are weak ass democrats? News to me.

Does that make weak ass democrats moderate republicans?

 

[KiffinKiller]

Does that make weak ass democrats moderate republicans?

it must. there is no room for middleground.

 

[lawgator1]

The TP's grace, and the distinction between it and the prior fiscal conservative movements a la Ross Perot, is that it is grass roots. No one person really started it. It sprung up in many different places, more or less simultaneously. That is its strength.

But it is also its weakness. We have already seen occassional flare ups of people with different agendas jockeying to be "in control," or "speak for," the TP as a national organization. While there is a glue within the TP on fiscal conservatism, the reality is that there are too many within it that are more motivated by the socially conservative ideals and it is inevitable that they will try to coopt the TP.

It will unravel. Guaranteed.

 

[sjt18]

The TP's grace, and the distinction between it and the prior fiscal conservative movements a la Ross Perot, is that it is grass roots. No one person really started it. It sprung up in many different places, more or less simultaneously. That is its strength.

But it is also its weakness. We have already seen occassional flare ups of people with different agendas jockeying to be "in control," or "speak for," the TP as a national organization. While there is a glue within the TP on fiscal conservatism, the reality is that there are too many within it that are more motivated by the socially conservative ideals and it is inevitable that they will try to coopt the TP.

It will unravel. Guaranteed.

Actually its primary weakness is that the left can do dishonest things like you just did and get away with it because they don't/can't defend themselves.

The TP is the left's new boogie man that they can use to scare people and get their votes... so they can continue to same reckless course that got us in trouble to start with.