The rich (Alabama) get richer

#76
#76
bamawriter said:
So, you compare these records to Saban's, and your conclusion is that he's not a better coach than them because his record is so much better?
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No, I see how absurdly better his record is and understand that means there is more to comprehend because he is not that head and shoulders above so many other greats. His teams are just in another stratosphere in terms of talent compared to who he plays. He literally did not play another team in the regular season that could have beat him this year. And that is not a knock on scheduling, it is a product of the talent differential and how great it is.
 
#77
#77
allvol123 said:
No, I see how absurdly better his record is and understand that means there is more to comprehend because he is not that head and shoulders above so many other greats.
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His record against Top 10 teams is exponentially better than the records of some legends of the sport. Most would see that as an indicator that Saban is better than those legends. But, you "know" that he is not better than those legends, so that record must indicate something else.

This is not mental gymnastics; this is a mental demolition derby.
 
#78
#78
bamawriter said:
His record against Top 10 teams is exponentially better than the records of some legends of the sport. Most would see that as an indicator that Saban is better than those legends. But, you "know" that he is not better than those legends, so that record must indicate something else.

This is not mental gymnastics; this is a mental demolition derby.
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I get it dude. When he was being mediocre at MSU, LSU, or Bama...It was a talent issue. When he is being the greatest coach ever, talent is irrelevant.

Btw, what was his record against Spurrier? You know, his record against top 10 opponents is so much better that Spurrier's, so I bet he must have really socked it to Spurrier head to head, right?
 
#79
#79
allvol123 said:
I get it dude. When he was being mediocre at MSU, LSU, or Bama...It was a talent issue. When he is being the greatest coach ever, talent is irrelevant.
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I never said talent was irrelevant. In fact, I said that recruiting is the most important part of a college coach's job description. There is certainly context for his record at MSU, in that eveb amazing recruiters cannot succeed under scholarship limitations.

Btw, what was his record against Spurrier? You know, his record against top 10 opponents is so much better that Spurrier's, so I bet he must have really socked it to Spurrier head to head, right?
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He's 1-3 against Spurrier. Does that mean Spurrier has to be a better coach? If it does, then does Sylvester Croom's 1-1 record against Saban prove that they're equals?
 
#80
#80
Yes recruiting is the most important part and he has nailed that at one of the places that it is the most hospitable to nailing it. I have said such.

He is not the greatest coach ever in terms of strategy, in game decision making, etc. I'd take Spurrier over him any day in a game between the two with similar talent on both sides.
 
#81
#81
allvol123 said:
Yes recruiting is the most important part and he has nailed that at one of the places that it is the most hospitable to nailing it. I have said such.

He is not the greatest coach ever in terms of strategy, in game decision making, etc. I'd take Spurrier over him any day in a game between the two with similar talent on both sides.
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Assuming you could have either in his prime, would you want Spurrier or Saban to run Tennessee?
 
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#82
#82
bamawriter said:
Assuming you could have either in their primes, would you want Spurrier or Saban to run Tennessee?
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That just takes it back to recruiting which I have said is Saban's wheelhouse and the backbone of college ball.

Tennessee does not have Florda HS talent and Spurrier would never work the recruiting as hard as it is needed at UT.

Pure coaching....game management, xs and os, I take Spurrier.

For what UT needs, Saban.

In their prime, I take Spurrier every time in head to head with comparable teams.
 
#83
#83
allvol123 said:
That just takes it back to recruiting which I have said is Saban's wheelhouse and the backbone of college ball.

Tennessee does not have Florda HS talent and Spurrier would never work the recruiting as hard as it is needed at UT.

Pure coaching....game management, xs and os, I take Spurrier.

For what UT needs, Saban.

In their prime, I take Spurrier every time in head to head with comparable teams.
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Spurrier? The guy who was ranked in the top 10 and lost to Butch Jones in 2013? Oh and Spurrier never went undefeated.
 
#84
#84
bamawriter said:
Assuming you could have either in his prime, would you want Spurrier or Saban to run Tennessee?
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With equal talent on a neutral field Spurrier beats Saban more often than not.

That takes nothing away from what Saban has done. Recruiting and finding every advantage is still part of the game and nobody comes close to Saban in that regard.
 
#85
#85
rjd970 said:
With equal talent on a neutral field Spurrier beats Saban more often than not.

That takes nothing away from what Saban has done. Recruiting and finding every advantage is still part of the game and nobody comes close to Saban in that regard.
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Lol. Saban has never lost to Botch Jones.
 
#86
#86
BigOrangeTrain said:
Spurrier? The guy who was ranked in the top 10 and lost to Butch Jones in 2013? Oh and Spurrier never went undefeated.
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Your cohort, bamawriter, will admonish you for this stupid post.

So now Fulmer is a better coach than Spurrier because he went undefeated and Spurrier didn't? Lol.
 
#87
#87
rjd970 said:
With equal talent on a neutral field Spurrier beats Saban more often than not.

That takes nothing away from what Saban has done. Recruiting and finding every advantage is still part of the game and nobody comes close to Saban in that regard.
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Your bias is showing, again. Spurrier's career at Florida is well documented. Enough so, that one doesn't have to guess if you take a genuine look at his record against the big boys with equal talent.

In 12 seasons his record against Bobby Bowden and Florida State: 5- 8-1.

Bowl record: 6-5

Total national championships: 1

Games played for the national championship: 2, and in the Fiesta Bowl against the Cornhuskers, he was totally eviscerated 62-24. It wasn't that close.

Perhaps the annual thumping that Spurrier put on the vols for a decade has clouded your memory and judgment?
 
#88
#88
TUSKtimes said:
Your bias is showing, again. Spurrier's career at Florida is well documented. Enough so, that one doesn't have to guess if you take a genuine look at his record against the big boys with equal talent.

In 12 seasons his record against Bobby Bowden and Florida State: 5- 8-1.

Bowl record: 6-5

Total national championships: 1

Games played for the national championship: 2, and in the Fiesta Bowl against the Cornhuskers, he was totally eviscerated 62-24. It wasn't that close.

Perhaps the annual thumping that Spurrier put on the vols for a decade has clouded your memory and judgment?
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Perhaps your Bama God complex with coaches is showing through again. Spurrier was an in innovator with offenses and a master of in game coaching. The annual thumping he put on us is exactly what I was using with my point. I would argue talent wise, UT had more in the 90’s as a whole than Spurrier did and he absolutely owned us.

As a whole, Saban is a better overall coach without question and is a model of consistency. For one game with equal talent on a neutral field I’m taking Spurrier every time.
 
#89
#89
rjd970 said:
Perhaps your Bama God complex with coaches is showing through again. Spurrier was an in innovator with offenses and a master of in game coaching. The annual thumping he put on us is exactly what I was using with my point. I would argue talent wise, UT had more in the 90’s as a whole than Spurrier did and he absolutely owned us.
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Frankly, he was in Fulmer's head. And Georgia's head as well. I mentioned Bobby Bowden, as an annual opponent he couldn't psych out. He lost too many games against the Seminoles to reign supreme. Bowden was a better coach.

Which brings me back to the "fun and gun" he put on the field. In his 12 seasons as UF's head coach, Spurrier never won in Tallahassee, finishing with a 0-5-1 record. Included in that leaky defense was the 1994 Choke at Doak, in which UF blew a 31-3 lead at the end of the third quarter in one of the worst collapses in college football history.
 
#90
#90
allvol123 said:
He is not the greatest coach ever in terms of strategy, in game decision making, etc. I'd take Spurrier over him any day in a game between the two with similar talent on both sides.
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Spurrier had elite talent at Florida every year and won "only" one title. And as others have mentioned, Bowden had his number.

As good as coaches like Spurrier, Bowden, Paterno, etc. were, you can poke holes in their records if you get really nitpicky. Spurrier struggled against his big in-state nemesis Bowden and won only a single title. Bowden, as dominant as his teams were, "only" won 2 titles despite finishing in the top 5 14 years in a row at one point. Paterno, for all his longevity, only won 2 national and 3 conference titles. Bo Schembechler, who Michigan fans will tell you is Spurrier, Bowden, Paterno, Saban, and Urban rolled into one, never won a national title and was 2-8 lifetime in the Rose Bowl. Each of those guys have incredible reputations that precede them, but it seems like each of them should have won more than they did, right? You can even play that game with coaches in other sports...check out Dean Smith's record at UNC.

But what's the hole you poke in Saban's record? That he was mediocre early in his career at a middling Big Ten school that was on probation? That he lost in a CFP semifinal once to the team that ended up winning it all, or Dabo beat him once in a title game? Cam Newton beat him once in the midst of a Heisman, national title-winning season? Manziel beat him once that year he won the Heisman and put together one of the greatest single seasons in CFB history? Sure, those are "holes" in his record if you want to call it that, but they seem really small compared to the other coaches I just mentioned.
 
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#91
#91
allvol123 said:
Find me his last win where he had the less talented team.
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his first season vs UT. arguably his third year when he beat FL in the SEC. there are probably some others but thats all I can think of as a non fan.

he is a great coach because he has removed the threat. just like scheming for a certain offense, or picking apart a defense, Saban attacks recruiting like any of the great minds attack an opposing team on the field.

he is also a pretty good defensive mind. probably one of the best.
 
#92
#92
LouderVol said:
his first season vs UT. arguably his third year when he beat FL in the SEC. there are probably some others but thats all I can think of as a non fan.

he is a great coach because he has removed the threat. just like scheming for a certain offense, or picking apart a defense, Saban attacks recruiting like any of the great minds attack an opposing team on the field.

he is also a pretty good defensive mind. probably one of the best.
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Yeah, there were definitely some wins early on at Alabama where he won with the less talented team, to varying degrees.

In 2007, he beat an 8-5, #16 at the time Arkansas team with Darren McFadden in his 3rd game at Alabama. Also crushed Tennessee that year as you said.

In 2008 he beat a #3 Georgia team that finished 10-3, but lost to an inferior Utah team in the Sugar Bowl.

In 2009 he crushed an arguably more talented Florida team in the SECCG.

In 2011, the win over LSU in the BCSNCG was over a team that was just as talented.

In 2012 he beat LSU again in Baton Rouge ranked #5 at the time that I thought was just as talented. Also beat a #2 Georgia team in the SECCG that was probably just as talented.
 
#93
#93
LouderVol said:
his first season vs UT. arguably his third year when he beat FL in the SEC. there are probably some others but thats all I can think of as a non fan.

he is a great coach because he has removed the threat. just like scheming for a certain offense, or picking apart a defense, Saban attacks recruiting like any of the great minds attack an opposing team on the field.

he is also a pretty good defensive mind. probably one of the best.
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I don't argue with anything you say. I have stated repeatedly I am talking coaching in terms of things other than recruiting.

He is the perfect guy in the perfect place.

If you are the AD at Duke or Minnesota, etc...you hire Spurrier over Saban in their primes. Because you are not pulling top 5 classes at those places and once you remove that the strengths of other coaches outweigh him.
 
#94
#94
allvol123 said:
If you are the AD at Duke or Minnesota, etc...you hire Spurrier over Saban in their primes. Because you are not pulling top 5 classes at those places and once you remove that the strengths of other coaches outweigh him.
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Whoever you hire, you better hire a guy that is an incredible recruiter and developer if you're talking a place like Duke or Minnesota. One that can recruit much better than they are accustomed to. At schools with structural disadvantages to their competition, you aren't going to be able to purely outscheme teams that are considerably more talented than you. You need to narrow that talent gap at least a little bit, either by recruiting more of it or coaching it up.
 
#95
#95
allvol123 said:
I don't argue with anything you say. I have stated repeatedly I am talking coaching in terms of things other than recruiting.

He is the perfect guy in the perfect place.

If you are the AD at Duke or Minnesota, etc...you hire Spurrier over Saban in their primes. Because you are not pulling top 5 classes at those places and once you remove that the strengths of other coaches outweigh him.
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I think its hard to argue one way or the other.

its not like saban only dominated once he had the best talent. he has been dominating since at least 2009 maybe even 2008. he didn't have the most talented teams by far at that point. and for most of his time at bama the offense hasn't been great, and regularly they weren't the best offense on the field. OL, RBs, and lesser extent TEs might have been the best. but regularly WR, and QB weren't. that was actually the one failing you could point too is that even though he recruited some of the best QBs he didn't get the best out of them. he fixed that.

IDK what made Bama different than his other stops. maybe he learned, maybe he had access to the resources, maybe its just the history. who knows. But you can't just call him a recruiter, he develops the talent as well. Can manage everything, players, coaches, admin etc etc.
 
#96
#96
LouderVol said:
I think its hard to argue one way or the other.
.
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Agree with this also. "The best ever..." labels irk me concerning most subjects. There are so many different facets to coaching as well as different circumstances to any such conversation.
 
#97
#97
05_never_again said:
Whoever you hire, you better hire a guy that is an incredible recruiter and developer if you're talking a place like Duke or Minnesota. One that can recruit much better than they are accustomed to. At schools with structural disadvantages to their competition, you aren't going to be able to purely outscheme teams that are considerably more talented than you. You need to narrow that talent gap at least a little bit, either by recruiting more of it or coaching it up.
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Spurrier could coach it up. He won a share off the ACC and he has never been known as a guy that worked recruiting relentlessly.
 
#98
#98
allvol123 said:
Spurrier could coach it up. He won a share off the ACC and he has never been known as a guy that worked recruiting relentlessly.
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The guy recruited his ass off at South Carolina and got a bunch of guys who traditionally would have gone to Clemson out of state. The biggest reason they went from lucky to make a bowl to 3 11-win seasons in a row and an East title is because his teams were more talented than South Carolina teams of the past.

Spurrier never landed some highly touted QB, but his Florida teams were stocked with NFL talent.
 
#99
#99
05_never_again said:
The guy recruited his ass off at South Carolina and got a bunch of guys who traditionally would have gone to Clemson out of state. The biggest reason they went from lucky to make a bowl to 3 11-win seasons in a row and an East title is because his teams were more talented than South Carolina teams of the past.

Spurrier never landed some highly touted QB, but his Florida teams were stocked with NFL talent.
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No he really didn't. He has never been a road warrior or a 100 hour work week guy, which is the profile of the modern day big coach.

His FL teams were loaded because it was in Florida.

He landed the big in state recruits in SC.

No one writing a profile of Spurrier would put recruiting as one of his passions.
 
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