The verdicts on Iraq progress

#2
#2
I think there needs to be a distinction between the surge as far as what our troops are doing and the failure of the Iraqi government. The surge, relating to our troops, is working. The Iraqi government on the other hand is not. Very little we can do about their failure. When you hand someone freedom and they do not work and die to achieve it themselves, they have little motivation to make it work.

Basically we've boxed ourselves into a tough situation. We clean up the terrorists and police the place only to hand it over to incompetence that will only allow tose same groups to come back and blow the place up.
 
#3
#3
The Iraqi Gov't's failure is due to feelings of insecurity. Yes, most people vote in elections in Iraq, however, only those who already wield power run for election. This is due to the fact that the average guy on the street does not feel like putting his life in danger by running for election and trying to make changes.

However, the IA and the IP have grown in to, for the most part, competent organizations. Anbar is finally secure, and the use of COPs are making the regular Iraqi citizen feel more secure in their daily lives.

The current strategy is working, which will eventually lead to a government that works.
 
#4
#4
The government is not working because it is divided among civil versions of who all is fighting. They did not fight to achieve their own freedom. They had it handed to them. Seeing them walk out over the first sign of trouble and the whole group leave town when they should stay and work things out shows little resolve. There is no incentive or motivation to get them going on trying to make this work. Until the people running the show get their heads out of their rear ends no effort on our part will make this work.
 
#5
#5
CSpindizzy said:
The government is not working because it is divided among civil versions of who all is fighting. They did not fight to achieve their own freedom. They had it handed to them. Seeing them walk out over the first sign of trouble and the whole group leave town when they should stay and work things out shows little resolve. There is no incentive or motivation to get them going on trying to make this work. Until the people running the show get their heads out of their rear ends no effort on our part will make this work.
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Frenchy you need your own brand and theme. Nike has "just do it" not really your taste so I say go with "just quit." No matter what success is had some will always find a way to rationalize why we should run and hide and stop trying to make things better. :salute:
 
#6
#6
Jewbaccah said:
Frenchy you need your own brand and theme. Nike has "just do it" not really your taste so I say go with "just quit." No matter what success is had some will always find a way to rationalize why we should run and hide and stop trying to make things better. :salute:
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I admit, I do have a place nestled in my heart for Spin, but what in his post is wrong?

We can't make it work if they do not put any effort in their own government.
 
#7
#7
Do you really believe they lack in effort? I think he has a point sure. If the Iraqis mess up then it will need fixing again. But, I can say that about anything. Are the Iraqis very divided right now absolutely. But lacking in effort not a chance. As a civilian do you go to work knowing today may be the day your rival at the office or in congress blows you up or kidnaps and chops your head off. This is going to take time. It is a success but a success in progress. I actually find some of their political types to be heroic. Speaking your mind in Islamic culture is a dangerous act.
 
#8
#8
Jewbaccah said:
Do you really believe they lack in effort? I think he has a point sure. If the Iraqis mess up then it will need fixing again. But, I can say that about anything. Are the Iraqis very divided right now absolutely. But lacking in effort not a chance. As a civilian do you go to work knowing today may be the day your rival at the office or in congress blows you up or kidnaps and chops your head off. This is going to take time. It is a success but a success in progress. I actually find some of their political types to be heroic. Speaking your mind in Islamic culture is a dangerous act.
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I believe they lack effort in areas. Their police force program is a complete disaster.

:eek:k:
 
#9
#9
Jewbaccah just lives in a warm and, no pun intended, fuzzy world. Reality and fact seems to find no place in a certain someone's mind. Somehow threats of beheadings have nothing to do with massive walkouts by one group and the fact that the entire legislative body chose to go home and take a break instead of address key concerns still lingering. If they DIDN'T lack in effort they'd be making every attempt to fix every issue they face. Sitting here in the US with no clue about the actual government and its everyday doings makes easy assumptions that all is well. But Fuzzy over there has no concept of what is really going on in their government or is just completely in a Bush-world state of denial. Odd how all of the benchmarks set up for this surge that are not being met are all falling in the laps of the Iraqi government and clearly show a lack of effort as a whole.
 
#10
#10
CSpindizzy said:
Jewbaccah just lives in a warm and, no pun intended, fuzzy world. Reality and fact seems to find no place in a certain someone's mind. Somehow threats of beheadings have nothing to do with massive walkouts by one group and the fact that the entire legislative body chose to go home and take a break instead of address key concerns still lingering. If they DIDN'T lack in effort they'd be making every attempt to fix every issue they face. Sitting here in the US with no clue about the actual government and its everyday doings makes easy assumptions that all is well. But Fuzzy over there has no concept of what is really going on in their government or is just completely in a Bush-world state of denial. Odd how all of the benchmarks set up for this surge that are not being met are all falling in the laps of the Iraqi government and clearly show a lack of effort as a whole.
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Be nice, I used to live in that world.
 
#12
#12
CSpin is simply restating the problems the Iraqi Gov't faced in 2006.

Currently, the IP is not a disaster. In fact, Sunni's are now policemen in their neighborhoods...aka employed by the Iraqi Gov't. Informal amnesty has been granted to the 1920s Revolutionary Group, as well as other militias, who have opted to side with the Iraqi Gov't and the American military against foreign "insurgent" forces in Iraq.

To add to the sectarian problem CSpin is still clinging to, oil revenue is currently being distributed among all the different ethnic groups and tribes.

Unfortunately, the Iraqi Gov't will not commit via legislation to continue the amnesty program and the oil revenue sharing program indefinitely. However, for the foreseeable future, these programs will continue, involving more diverse individuals in the current government.
 
#14
#14
therealUT said:
In that case we should transfer from a conscript based military to an all-volunteer force...
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How about a competent President instead?

One who doesn't think its the U.S. military's responsibility to enforce U.N. resolutions.
 
#18
#18
oklavol said:
How about a competent President instead?

One who doesn't think its the U.S. military's responsibility to enforce U.N. resolutions.
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I guess there were only 156 competent members of congress at the time, too?

BTW, that is out of a total of ~530 members of Congress.
 
#22
#22
OrangeEmpire said:
I thought Bush went to war for Daddy W and for oil?
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if you looking for a rationale explanation for it there isn't one.

It was first to find WMD"s, then it was to remove a brutal dictator, then it was to fight terrorism, then it was to nation build, etc. You pick.

But trying to find one that is in the national interest and worth the financial cost is the hard part.
 
#25
#25
oklavol said:
if you looking for a rationale explanation for it there isn't one.

It was first to find WMD"s, then it was to remove a brutal dictator, then it was to fight terrorism, then it was to nation build, etc. You pick.

But trying to find one that is in the national interest and worth the financial cost is the hard part.
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116 STAT. 1498 PUBLIC LAW 107–243—OCT. 16, 2002
Public Law 107–243
107th Congress
Joint Resolution
To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.

Whereas in 1990 in response to Iraq’s war of aggression against an illegal occupation of Kuwait, the United States forged a coalition of nations to liberate Kuwait and its people in order to defend the national security of the United States and enforce United Nations Security Council resolutions relating to Iraq;

Whereas after the liberation of Kuwait in 1991, Iraq entered into a United Nations sponsored cease-fire agreement pursuant to which Iraq unequivocally agreed, among other things, to eliminate its nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons programs and the means to deliver and develop them, and to end its support for international terrorism;

Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated;

Whereas Iraq, in direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire, attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify and destroy Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction stockpiles and development capabilities, which finally resulted in the withdrawal of inspectors from Iraq on October 31, 1998;

Whereas in Public Law 105–235 (August 14, 1998), Congress concluded that Iraq’s continuing weapons of mass destruction programs threatened vital United States interests and international peace and security, declared Iraq to be in ‘‘material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations’’ and urged the President ‘‘to take appropriate action, in accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations’’;

Whereas Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations;
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Yes, although Congress in 1998 made it official US policy to use force against Iraq if they continued to interfere in the inspection process, the decision to use force against Iraq was wholly GWBs idea.

Also, you said the reasons kept shifting, Oklavol. Funny, they are pretty much laid out right there in October of 2002. The first reason being that Iraq was not in compliance with the resolutions that brought about the end of our efforts against Hussein in the early 90s.

You are great at revisionist history, Oklavol...that is if no one else is willing to dig up the research to prove you categorically wrong. Guess this wasn't your lucky day.
 
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